Which arts are closest to a real fight?

[jubaji]

The most realistic system would be boxing combined with wrestling....p

Say no more!

[MuayThaiFighter]

Everything you mentioned is taught in one style or another...
Some styles teach deep stances, others don't...
some teach tightness, others teach looseness...
some teach the basic blocks, other's teach them as strikes...
etc...



These are not the proper applications of these techniques. The blocks are too slow, but become useful if you use the whole movement...


I never implied Karate doesn't teach more than Muay Thai. Merely that we teach more than fighting stance (it's called Kihon Dachi)



What's more likely, breaking the little bones of your hand on someones face, or breaking the heel of your palm. Or the side of your wrist in a sword hand to the throat?



Right, that's why boxers wear gloves, because you can punch as hard as you want too with an unprotected fist...

Obviously, you don't know why open handed techniques are baned in Karate tournaments, so don't pretend you do. One of us is a certified national coach. Shooting the heel of you palm into somebody's nose, or a knife hand to the throat are too dangerous to be used in competition.


Catching someone open hand strikes are like catching someone's fist. Probably not gonna happen. That's why you parry. It's just too fast.

My fingers will either be behind your head or above your eyes. Good luck getting them. You'd have a better chance breaking the wrist of someone trying to grab you. And that isn't that likely either.



You don't hit the same targets with a palm heel as you do with a punch. If you did, they would eliminate the less forceful one.

These are not the proper applications of these techniques. The blocks are too slow

I agree these blocks are too slow.

but become useful if you use the whole movement...

No they don't

Right, that's why boxers wear gloves, because you can punch as hard as you want too with an unprotected fist...

No we wear gloves because without them we can do alot of damage to our opponent and because the law says we have to.The possibility of breaking your hand with a punch is possible but not as likely as it is with breaking your fingers from open hand strikes.

Obviously, you don't know why open handed techniques are baned in Karate tournaments, so don't pretend you do

First of all I don't need to pretend that I know because I took Okinawan Goju Ryu karate for 12yrs. and was a second degree black belt but quit just before testing for my 3rd degree black belt.I also taught karate to children and adults for 5yrs.

Actually I do know why they're banned. 1/ Good way of busting your fingers. 2/.They don't want anyone getting poked in eye or jabbed by fingers in throat because it's very dangerous,but I did mention before that I think that's the only time when open hand strikes are effective.Besides why would you want to use open hand strikes even if you could? it would be stupid because against punches it would never work.Doing an upper cut into somebody's nose doesn't do any less damage then a palm to nose.

One of us is a certified national coach.

Certified coach means shit in karate.If you're a black belt and good enough to teach as I did when I did karate, and you have the bucks to dish out you can become a certified coach.Besides alot of karate instructors think they know it all,they can teach katas,and fancy techniques but most have no clue to the bunkai (applications) to their forms.I just happened to be lucky to know the bunkai of my forms but many don't and then here they are brainwashing their students into what they want their students to believe works.

[Tom Yum]

Actually I do know why they're banned. 1/ Good way of busting your fingers. 2/.They don't want anyone getting poked in eye or jabbed by fingers in throat because it's very dangerous,but I did mention before that I think that's the only time when open hand strikes are effective.Besides why would you want to use open hand strikes even if you could? it would be stupid because against punches it would never work.Doing an upper cut into somebody's nose doesn't do any less damage then a palm to nose.

Open hand strikes are quite good. I wouldn't say necessarily better than punches, but they can do damage as well.

Open hand strikes against a very determined boxer won't be very helpfull.

In a clinch or stand up grappling situation, they could be more efficient than punching. For example, an upward ridge hand to the groin while clinching might loosen the grip and give you distance. A palm strike to the ear/groin/spear hand to perrineum while in a headlock could give some leverage for escape...

[ryangruhn]

You are missing a heck of a lot of styles from that poll. If you want "real" you better add more then just empty hand arts.

Gruhn

[MuayThaiFighter]

You are missing a heck of a lot of styles from that poll. If you want "real" you better add more then just empty hand arts.

Gruhn

This forum is supposed to be only about empty hand arts.To be perfectly honest I think weapon arts are pointless most of the times since martial arts teaches mostly traditional weapons which you would never carry on you these days.The only weapon in martial arts I can see useful is the Bo since a piece of wood, metal bar lieing on street or a pool cue if in a club or pool hall can be used in same way.Defending against a gun as some styles teach is impossible in reality.

[HtTKar]

To be perfectly honest I think weapon arts are pointless most of the times since martial arts teaches mostly traditional weapons which you would never carry on you these days.The only weapon in martial arts I can see useful is the Bo

Sure
If you really think so.

[ryangruhn]

This forum is supposed to be only about empty hand arts.To be perfectly honest I think weapon arts are pointless most of the times since martial arts teaches mostly traditional weapons which you would never carry on you these days.The only weapon in martial arts I can see useful is the Bo since a piece of wood, metal bar lieing on street or a pool cue if in a club or pool hall can be used in same way.Defending against a gun as some styles teach is impossible in reality.

My apologies for not respecting that the forum was just for empty hand, in my eyes a MMA would be the best defense (Combo of Muay Thai & Grappling). To comment on your comment that weapon arts are pointless I will have to completely disagree. Please check out the Dog Brothers, Sayoc Kali, and most weapons arts from the Philippines. You will be pleasantly surprised of how realistic they are. In our school we train daily with beer bottles, crow bars, cell phones, keys, and just about anything else you can get your hands on in the “Real World” which all derive from the FMA’s. As far as hand gun disarms, please don’t quote me on this but I have heard that close to 90% of hand gun shootings happen with in six feet of the target and 50% of those happening with the hand gun against the target. In that case there are millions of disarms that are extremely affective. Sorry to take the thread off kilter, please feel free to resume your original topic.

Gruhn

[MuayThaiFighter]

My apologies for not respecting that the forum was just for empty hand, in my eyes a MMA would be the best defense (Combo of Muay Thai & Grappling). To comment on your comment that weapon arts are pointless I will have to completely disagree. Please check out the Dog Brothers, Sayoc Kali, and most weapons arts from the Philippines. You will be pleasantly surprised of how realistic they are. In our school we train daily with beer bottles, crow bars, cell phones, keys, and just about anything else you can get your hands on in the “Real World” which all derive from the FMA’s. As far as hand gun disarms, please don’t quote me on this but I have heard that close to 90% of hand gun shootings happen with in six feet of the target and 50% of those happening with the hand gun against the target. In that case there are millions of disarms that are extremely affective. Sorry to take the thread off kilter, please feel free to resume your original topic.

Gruhn

My apologies for not respecting that the forum was just for empty hand, in my eyes a MMA would be the best defense (Combo of Muay Thai & Grappling).

No problem.Glad we agree as far as the best MMA combine Muay Thai and Grappling.

To comment on your comment that weapon arts are pointless I will have to completely disagree.

I didn't mean all weapons arts I meant in general since most martial arts schools do teach pointless weapon disarms,I realize there are some good weapon arts out there but very few.

Sayoc Kali, and most weapons arts from the Philippines. You will be pleasantly surprised of how realistic they are.

It wouldn't come to surprise to me because I know Philipino arts are realistic perhaps I should have explained my thoughts a little better.I think arts like Kali,Arnis etc.are good arts.

I was specifically talking about weapons training within arts like karate,kung fu,tkd,jkd etc.

In our school we train daily with beer bottles, crow bars, cell phones, keys, and just about anything else you can get your hands on in the “Real World” which all derive from the FMA’s.

WOW REALLY!!!!! That sounds cool,obviously realistic too,I've never heard of any martial arts that trains with beer bottles,crow bars.How do you use a cell phone for protection other then for calling cops or someone to come help you out? FMA?

As far as hand gun disarms, please don’t quote me on this but I have heard that close to 90% of hand gun shootings happen with in six feet of the target and 50% of those happening with the hand gun against the target.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is true but either way a gun kill a human being before you can defend yourself.

You don't have to be close to a gun to be killed by it.

Also even close up,all the martial arts in the world won't help for gun defense and why is that? Well simply if someone puts a gun to your head in a real situation chances are you going to freeze and basically shit your pants.It's one thing to train against a gun and actually have to defend against it.

In the army during war time a soldier can die 10mins after the war starts despite all his training,because most people will fire without warning and sneak up behind you and even when they don't the bullet is faster then you and as we all know wars don't end without soldiers dieing.

[ryangruhn]

I was specifically talking about weapons training within arts like karate,kung fu,tkd,jkd etc.

And we agree again. As stated before "a weapon sometimes ends up being an accessory to a dance rather than a weapon" and unfortunately this is the case with many arts. More art then martial I guess you could say.

WOW REALLY!!!!! That sounds cool,obviously realistic too,I've never heard of any martial arts that trains with beer bottles,crow bars.How do you use a cell phone for protection other then for calling cops or someone to come help you out? FMA?

Yep! Check out my page if it interests you, realism is simply a necessity in my training. Anything you can find in your daily life is used in our classes or replaced with something of its size in rattan form. We use cell phones when dealing with guntings (arm punches) and also used as a blunt trauma object presented in an ice pick grip as with knife work. The FMA’s were created using weapons that were around in their daily lives, fishing spears, bolo’s etc. It is only far that the art is adapted to what we have around us now-a-days.

Gruhn

[MuayThaiFighter]

And we agree again. As stated before "a weapon sometimes ends up being an accessory to a dance rather than a weapon" and unfortunately this is the case with many arts. More art then martial I guess you could say.




Yep! Check out my page if it interests you, realism is simply a necessity in my training. Anything you can find in your daily life is used in our classes or replaced with something of its size in rattan form. We use cell phones when dealing with guntings (arm punches) and also used as a blunt trauma object presented in an ice pick grip as with knife work. The FMA’s were created using weapons that were around in their daily lives, fishing spears, bolo’s etc. It is only far that the art is adapted to what we have around us now-a-days.

Gruhn

Cool,I doubt there is anything like that in Vancouver.

[silapathai]

what? you wear globes in Sabaki?

So true,but still the closest you will get to real fight provided we are talking about a one on one fight.

After all in UFC,Sabaki and Pride just as in a real fight they don't wear boxing gloves.They wear grappling gloves but those still can hurt person getting beaten up in these competitions almost as much as someone getting beaten up on street with no gloves at all.Those grappling gloves have very little protection and fingers are not covered.

Just as in a real fight most of these ring fights end to the ground.

You would never see in a regular tournament such as those of karate,tae kwon do,kung fu etc. guys pounding the shit out of their opponent while he is on ground or see guys choking each other out to tap or unconciousness and you would never see any fighters doing arm bars,leg locks,ankle locks or neck cranks,also you would never see a fighter elbowing someone on ground or knocking a guy out with his knees from stand up position all these in one tournament.

Compared to other tournaments and ring fights these UFC,Sabaki and Pride fights have very few rules so when it comes down it they are the next best thing to a fight.

Since when do we wear gloves in Sabaki? Sabaki Challenge is a "knockdown" or "bare knuckle" rules fight that is similar to the many IKO organizations Kyokushin tournaments...as I said similar but not the same.
In Sabaki you can't do a full clinch/circular clinch when kneeing/kicking someone but may pull them down if your hands are on the same side. In most Kyokushin tournaments you're not allowed to clinch at all. You listed arts that aren't used much in Sabaki. Occasionally someone with a Muay Thai background comes into Sabaki but I haven't seen many pankration, shooto, etc. guys compete in Sabaki. Sabaki like all other knockdown rule tournaments doesn't allow punches to the face because you are competing bare knuckle..you are allowed to kick to the legs, body, and head..and knee to the legs, body, and head...The fights are a lot shorter in knockdown tournaments so the pace is a lot different than a muay thai match is. This puts a lot of thaiboxers at a disadvantage when competing in Sabaki. At the same time many people that do well in Sabaki(especially the Enshin stylists) usually do poorly in muay thai fights if they even compete at all in muay thai fights...

[fenwick99]

re

Former student of Master Chai, Mike Goldbach, has some tapes out thru
TRS called "combat Thai kickboxing" and these tapes are primarily designed to show how 2
modify thai basics for the street.

[academian]

Here are a few martial arts styles that I believe to be the best and the closest to a real situation let me know what you think.

Consider which fighters of which styles wins most often in UFC, Sabaki Challenge, and Pride.

Pankration
Shooto
Savate
Muay Thai Kickboxers
Grapplers (judo,jujitsu,sambo and submission wrestling etc.)

Without a doubt are MuayThai fighters as well as grapplers great fighters in and outside of UFC,Sabaki Challenge and Pride, however the best styles are the ones that combine muay thai and grappling. These mixed martial arts styles have been proven over and over again to take on the world of martial arts, anyone who has doubts has not seen these competitions.

In my opinion Pankration,and Shooto are a few of the best fighters in the world of martial arts today, as they combine muay thai, a top stand up art with grappling.

From what I have written and from what you guys have seen in these competitions, which arts do you believe to be the best ?

No style even remotely resembles a real street fight. real fights go beyond style. they are based totally on the skills and abilities of those involved.Most street fights are probally started by drugged out exconvicts that learned to box in prison so they would probally resemble boxing matches unless one of them was smart enough to learn a diffrent style or technique then its anybodys guess what it would look like but it certianly wouldn look anything like UFC or MT fights because those are professional fighters in professional fights and you just wont see that level of skill in a street fight.

[Dopey]

I dont know where any of you guys are from but here in Houston,well,...my Highschool atleast,we have fights 3 times a week,so Its not common for me to see atleast one fight a week. Anyway,every single fight ive seen,is always stand-up and not ground. I think its the mentalilty of fighting,but fighting fair. It wouldnt be acceptabale if the guy made a cheap move,trip the of the other guy with the back of the leg and start pounding on this guy. It wouldnt be right.

[Freedom]

Even if the fight goes to ground, it doesn't have to stay there. If, in a street fight, you go to ground and aren't very comfortable fighting there, you could get back up again. Its amazing how fast people can move when they are scared...