Bouncers-tips,tricks And Mistakes To Avoid

[Garland]

I wish club owners were that compassionate but in the real world it isn't going to happen. When I volunteer I always keep a couple quart bottles of water behind the table in case I see someone like that. If you appreciate it than put a dollar or two in our donation jar if you ever see us

Club owners are business men and they certainly have a right to run their business their own way and to protect their livlihood. It's the bouncer's job to protect the club's interests and I wouldn't expect you to do anything else. Also, I certainly don't advocate using drugs, I advocate education. I have a career, a house mortgage to pay and ambitions; I love practicing kung fu- I can't afford to be abusing my mind and body with a bunch of chemicals. Personally though, I've seen a lot of people get badly hurt over the years- some of whom were very close to me. I've seen more people than I could ever remember leave a club/concert/party in an ambulance. At the same time there isn't much that I love more than music and dancing. The work I do is my way of trying to make my community a better place. Sometimes teens and young adults do crazy things that they regret later- if they live long enough. By encouraging education I increase the chances that they will recover from their mistakes. I help prevent the seizures, the dehydration, the heat exhaustion and the over doses. You can look down on drug users if you want; drugs are definately a problem and I won't defend their use. I just think I have a better way to address that problem than most people in our society, and I'm not afraid to roll up my sleeves and practice what I preach. I know that not everyone agrees with my approach but then again they don't know the people I work with...

Okay, first...yes I will if I ever see a booth like yours around...except, I think my clubbin' days are numbered and my ravin' days far gone.

Second...You hit the nail on the head. You can't make pariahs out of these people, they need to be educated about what they're doing, and warned of real dangers instead of being fed propaganda on both sides.
It's like sex-ed these days too. Saying no to drug education is like advocating abstenence only sex-ed, sure it might fit your ethical bits and pieces, but it doesn't help, and only creates more problems in the long run.

[Sagacious Lu]

...and it's the only MDMA drug I know of, besides PMA that has been actually linked to deaths. DXM has...

Ecstacy related deaths are usually from heat exhaustion or dehydration. The drug inhibits your body's ability to regulate it's temperature. If it were cold you'd get hypothermia faster than normal but since it's hot on the dance floor heat exhaustion is common. DXM is sometimes sold as ecstacy. The scary thing is that if you mix MDMA and DXM the combination is very difficult for your liver to break down which makes the combination much more dangerous than either would be individually.

[Sagacious Lu]

Okay, first...yes I will if I ever see a booth like yours around...except, I think my clubbin' days are numbered and my ravin' days far gone.

Second...You hit the nail on the head. You can't make pariahs out of these people, they need to be educated about what they're doing, and warned of real dangers instead of being fed propaganda on both sides.
It's like sex-ed these days too. Saying no to drug education is like advocating abstenence only sex-ed, sure it might fit your ethical bits and pieces, but it doesn't help, and only creates more problems in the long run.

Thanks, that's exactly where I'm coming from

[gregimotis]

(warning - gregimotis is tired and probably shouldn't be posting)

...nobody THINKS or PREPARES for that (going into seizures)! Especially not druggies...I mean...after all, they aren't known to be the most responsible people on the planet

This statement... Absolutely makes Mr. Brewers point better than any follow-up comment from me could.



Nonetheless here is my comment: I drove across the state Saturday to attend weigh-ins hoping to get a boxing match after my opponent bailed two days ago. I trained five days/week for that match - seven if you count roadwork. I go from my job, to the gym I teach at, to the gym I train at and then I get home and go to bed so I can get up in the morning to run. Tomorrow, I'm going back to the gym and start again for the next match. I'm tired, but I'm not quitting and I'm not resting. I pay with all my time and energy to be a second-rate martial artist.

I am having a hard time feeling sorry for people with enough free time to eat a bunch of drugs and drink all night in the clubs and get sick.


Gregimotis has spoken - that is all.

[treelizard]

Yeah, I'm with Gregi and Brewer. I'm not saying I would ever WITHHOLD water from someone in need or that it's ethical to do so. Yet somehow I just can't muster up much sympathy for these poor, unfortunate drug users who just can't get any free drinking water and have to pay for it like the rest of us. Waaah, waaah, cry me a river. The more you ENABLE them by stopping them from experiencing the negative consequences of their bad behavior, the more they will **** up.

[treelizard]

*Edit* Two other things that can be extrememly dangerous, and that I would hope a bouncer would watch for are GHB(or GBL) and rohypnol aka roofies. Either G or roofies are sometimes used as "date rape" drugs because it's easy to slip them into a drink and they cause loss of memory/consciousness. G is particularly scary because it causes so many over doses and negative reactions with alcohol or other drugs. These drugs aren't likely to cause brawls, but they are very likely to cause rapes, deaths and trips to the hospital.

When I was in another country, I had a friend who had one of those date rape drugs used on her. She wouldn't press charges , but I called the police anyway, just to let them know that he had the substance available to him and to keep an eye out. They were *very* interested in the information. Anybody had experience with it in the good ol' U.S.? I often wonder if red tape might have gotten in the way...

[Garland]

But let me relate it from "our" side. You mentioned "looking for your friends." That was always my pet peeve. Most bouncers have to clear out the club, then clean the whole place up when everyone leaves. It's not always part of the job, but often, it is. That means all the spilled drinks, the pissed-on floors, the puke in the bathrooms, and all of the other great stuff that's left by patrons who don't give a warm squirt of rat piss what kind of mess they leave behind has to be waded through, mopped up, and cleaned by the bouncers. Not a lot of fun. In fact, we're trying to get everyone to go to the same place (outside) specifically so that they'll be easier to find!

Giving away water? It's free from the bathroom sink, but the bottled stuff costs the owners, same as it costs you. And I still maintain that I have no sympathy - none whatever - for people who willingly spend their last dollar for drugs and then need to go begging for things like water.

I agree with you that it's pretty shitty to let a guy die without even trying to help, though. In fact, it's illegal.

There's nothing anyone can say that will make me feel pity or sympathy for a druggie who's gone and screwed themselves up on their chemical of choice. I may feel bad for them as a person, but I refuse to feel any pity at all for their situation. It's usually self-pity that put them there in the first place. Adding to it for them won't help them or me.

Alrighty...1) cool, I know that getting people out of the club so that they can finish cleaning up is part of their job, but as it is the job they choose, if they go fucking Rambo without provocation, as soon as the lights are up...they need to chill. It takes a while to get out of a club (say ten minutes or so). I work as a busser in a restraunt...it might not be exactly the same, but I know the feeling of wanting people out so I can clean up their fucking mess and go home...BUT...I never tell them, no matter how much I'd like to, to get the **** out...because the patrons of the buisness are who, when all is said and done, are where the money is coming from.

2)I mentioned the same story three times now...OUTSIDE -RAVE. One it's outside, two it's a borderline legal party to begin with. There are stands to buy water and glowsticks and shit...no alchohol, only lighting, music, and fuckered up people all 'round. There is no "tap" or anything to get water from...aside from the fact that the one in question was in the middle of the desert during the summer time.

3) AMEN!

4)Okay...to put it from my perspective...how could I then feel sorry for a cop, soldier, bouncer...anything, who got killed based on their decision to put themselves in a potentially dangerous position. One is nobler than the other? What about the insigator bouncers? Or the fucked-up cop? Do they deserve more or less sympathy than the person who is expirmenting with drugs and dies due to others neglect??? Everyone on both sides of the line generally has a plan to come home at the end of the night, unharmed and alive. People on both sides have families...and sometimes the person to O.D. on accident is the cop's son, or the soldier's son, or daughter.
Is it the kids fault for not knowing any better? NO! People are young, and they make mistakes...most of the time they aren't fatal...nor do they ever need to be, so long as people are around that can catch them a little when they fall. It'll still hurt their ass...believe me...they just won't die.

PEOPLE WILL NEVER LEARN TO STAY AWAY FROM DRUGS WHEN THEIR PALS O.D. I know. I fucking know. To make a martyr out of them is a mistake...the death of a junkie or somebody who made a mistake is purposeless...meaningless...but their LIVES are not. A life is never meaningless, but sometimes death is.

That's fucked. I usually agree with your input and regardless you always bring something interesting and are a well researched and experienced voice to any conversation...but I will not bend on this issue either.

If this isn't adequate...then let's just agree to disagree. I don't do that shit...I still have to see it though...and it hurts me to see so many of my friends who really are hell-bent on hurting themselves carry on when others just make simple, albeit stupid mistakes and end up paying dearly.

[Garland]

When I was in another country, I had a friend who had one of those date rape drugs used on her. She wouldn't press charges , but I called the police anyway, just to let them know that he had the substance available to him and to keep an eye out. They were *very* interested in the information. Anybody had experience with it in the good ol' U.S.? I often wonder if red tape might have gotten in the way...

Okay...Yeah, I have seen this shit.
Here's another case, maybe I can bring you around to seeing things from my perspective...if not maybe this'll be food for thought.

Alright, a female friend of your gets drunk and ignores pretty common sense drinking rules, and decides to take a drink from a boy that she doesn't really know...she wakes up the next day in the hospital and not only has she been raped, but beaten, and left in the cold...when somebody came across her and actually called for help...she got to the hospital and they shot her up with atrephine and treated her for hypothermia.

Is it her fucking fault for getting too drunk and putting herself in the position to be exploited...some may argue yes. I don't. It's not so different from the expiremental drug user story, or at least not as different as you people might like to believe.


For the record...I have taken two girls to the hospital for this...one time having to hold a strangers jaw open while trying to get her sister on the phone to take us to the hospital, so she wouldn't asphixiate on her own vomit...didn't know somebody slipped her GHB until the doctors did a blood screening.
Still, I went back to the party to get my coat and knocked a kid out who had tried to prevent me from calling her sister and taking her to the hospital. Right in front of his friends....I grabbed his shirt and ripped it over his head before putting his head between my fist and a wall.

People who exploit others to that degree...rape, date rape...exploitation of children, DRUG ADDICTS, drunk girls, anything of that sort...should be killed. If I could ask god, **** if I believed in God and could ask for one thing, it would be that I could get away with dispatching rapists and exploiters long enough that I could make a dent.

Why?

I had a junkie girlfriend about a year ago, for awhile, who was essentially homeless. I worried every day that she'd been kidnapped or raped. She disappeared from my life for long periods of time...and every single time I knew that something bad could happen.

A few weeks ago...my ex told me that she'd gotten drunk, molested, and almost raped...and my ex made me promise not to seek him out and hurt him...

A few nights ago, it hit me...I'm not very good at connecting the dots between things sometimes, especially with girls, or friends....

my ex-junkie girlfriend had stopped by to see me about 4 months ago after a five month absence...and had told me, unsolicited...that I didn't need to worry, she never turned tricks or did anything like amatuer porn for drugs...
The thought never crossed my mind...but now that I think I can link this shit up, maybe she did. Maybe somebody used her weaknesses to exploit her.
****...I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't know. I just can't forget it for long without worry and anger rearing it's ugly head.

It makes my blood boil in ways you wouldn't believe. 2 of the women in my life...two of the people I've loved the most...

Why do I put this shit up? Because I want you people to see what you're saying. People don't intend to put themselves into a bad position unless they're willing to put themselves at risk. some do.

Most don't see the risks...or they underestimate it. Which isn't their fault...it isn't anyone's fault. It just happens. It is up to the people around to help out.

I have helped a few people in my life...even for people who would have probably left me to die had I been in that situation, yet not once have I ever really regretted it. Sure I may wish harm to some of them now...but in the moment...I did something good...maybe more for my own than for theirs...I don't know if you'll understand that...but I don't intend to elaborate anymore...my dumb ass has probably said too much on this issue anyway.

[Garland]

Quite frankly, I'd start to question it a lot more seriously if I were you. You're actually defending the notion that druggies who OD are in the same category as cops and soldiers who volunteer to put their lives on the line for your freedoms. Never mind that you are blaming others for not having water on hand for some idiot who's O.D.ing. I'll say it again - if they could remember to bring drugs, they can remember to bring water. If they have money to buy drugs, they ought to have money to buy water. It might be possible, Garland, that your choice of friends has inhibited your ability to see plain logic...

I know it's a poor analogy...but I knew it would evoke the type of emotion in you that it did. You see, Mike...people choose to put themselves into positions for different reasons. Maybe that doesn't mean much...but there are those that choose to become cops or soldiers and end up doing good things, but start out with questionable motives.

Just as there are people who...and listen closely...take drugs a few times to see what's there for themselves. Not turn to drugs. Not anything completely ignoble...but just to have a good time. Maybe they're misguided, or maybe they're not educated on the subject enough to know what's a calculated risk, a relatively safe drug exposure, and what's the equivalent of chemical and enviornmental Russian roulette.

True...they could've brought water, but to deny something to someone in need was what I was getting at. You agreed that it was screwed up earlier, and now the focal point of our discussion has shifted to your contempt and my defense of people who use drugs, not really the forethought behind bringing water.

Yes...I agree...they should've...****, scratch that, I SHOULD have brought more water, knowing full well the risks, but I was misguided and misled into thinking that there would be water provided for free at the event...

who has a rave out in the desert. The difference between a rave and a club is this...rave organisers and security KNOW without a doubt there will be drugs, some security personal even sell. They exploit people, and exploitation is fucked, be it an impressionable youth or a somebody who is intoxicated. Water is a necessity, they know people WILL run out, and they try to maximize their capital.

[treelizard]

I definitely make a distinction between people who choose to take drugs and have to experience the consequences, and people who get drugs slipped into their drinks without their knowledge, and have to experience the consequences. For instance, to bring up another raver drug, I have an acquaintance who was raped after taking ketamine aka special K. Since she was unable to move her limbs, she was unable to fight back. She made a choice to ingest horse tranquilizer. People who have roofies slipped into their drinks did not make the choice to ingest them, they were tricked into it.

I definitely think that rapists and other predators need to be held accountable for their criminal behavior. But there are ways to minimize those risks. Sadly, most people learn about those things after they are assaulted. I would definitely question people who continue to repeat their pre-assault behavior with the same results over and over again.

For me it's been really empowering to imagine that everything that happens to me is my fault. Empowering because if it is choices that I make that get me into bad situations, I have complete control of the situation because I can change those choices. Many people who make bad choices don't want to change, and that's fine. But I choose to spend my energy working with people who do.

I agree with you that rapists deserve divine punishment, yet somehow helping women who WANT to avoid the situations many of us have naively put ourselvers into, seems to be much more effective. It is true that people may not see or may underestimate the risks--but it's a choice. And when they see the consequences of those risks happening all around them and STILL ENGAGE IN THE SAME BEHAVIOR, it again, is a CHOICE. It is their "fault" if you want to call it that. I question your statement that it's up to the people around them to help them out. Believe me I am all for helping people, but it doesn't work unless they want to be helped. I think you're taking far more responsibility for your friends' health and safety and well-being than you should. THEY are going to do drugs and it's up to YOU to bring them water? That's called "enabling".... and it doesn't "help" people...

[Tom Yum]

who has a rave out in the desert. The difference between a rave and a club is this...rave organisers and security KNOW without a doubt there will be drugs, some security personal even sell. They exploit people, and exploitation is fucked, be it an impressionable youth or a somebody who is intoxicated. Water is a necessity, they know people WILL run out, and they try to maximize their capital.

Looks like you're wisening up a bit.

You mentioned earlier that alot of folks use drugs to escape family issues. How many people honestly grow up in a family that has the same dynamics as Leave it to Beaver? Seriously?

Drugs may take away the pain instantly, but you have to keep coming back and the practice becomes addictive. Not to mention, most jobs in the past 10 years have required drug screening as thorough as taking urine, blood and hair samples. You can't fake being that clean.

Ever consider doing some deep soul searching? I mean really sitting down for a few hours and thinking or meditating about what it is you really need and how to get to it?

[Garland]

point taken.
I understand the stupidity of my friends' actions, but still...Even though I have ample and good reason to leave them to their own devices, I feel that, deep in my core, I need to be there for them. If that's all I can do, than perhaps that will have to suffice...I do see certain things as being outside of their own fault, although some things are indeed almost certainly consequences of their own actions.

I defend them, I do not defend what they're doing...perhaps I let those two things blur when I think about the issues...because I do love and care about my friends, and I maintain my loyalty towards them, even though I know at times that they are screwing up...I warn and preach to them, and try to sit down heart to heart...but it seems to be so deep rooted in their nature that I can't get through. Even if they die as a result of their choices, I can rest in good conscience KNOWING for certain that I exhausted every possible option trying to help them, and moreover, knowing that I was there for them.

That's all a friend in my position can really do, is be there, and support them, not their habit mind you, but support their safety and support them emotionally and psychologically, to the best of my ability.

I know I'm probably contradicting earlier statments, but I think about this alot, and my opinions about it waver, and it really is a good thing to write it down...because this moment of clarity about the issue might be fleeting as soon as I see them in trouble again, and my messiah complex kicks in.

As Peter Elbow said, "you don't know what you think until you write it."

And I do take what you say to heart, Mike, I do. I might not agree with you on every issue, but I do see a great deal of problems with my perception of what's going on, and it's the questioning of my own actions and thoughs about this predicimant that are going to help me find a best possible way to REALLY help my friends.

Once again, thank you. I do appreciate your advice and your insight, even thinking this stuff over last night has given me some new angles to see things from, and definitely some self analysis of my relationships with these people and why I always jump towards their defense, perhaps at times even at my own expense.

[Sagacious Lu]

When I was in another country, I had a friend who had one of those date rape drugs used on her. She wouldn't press charges , but I called the police anyway, just to let them know that he had the substance available to him and to keep an eye out. They were *very* interested in the information. Anybody had experience with it in the good ol' U.S.? I often wonder if red tape might have gotten in the way...

Sure, I run across them all the time, they're actually pretty common. The overwhelming majority of the time they're taken voluntarily, but the risk of having one slipped into your drink is still real in a lot of places. Although rapists have definately used these drugs that isn't what happens a lot of the time. Many of the people I've talked to that claimed have been drugged with GHB (or roofies) described effects that were not consistant with GHB. I think more often than not the "victim" took too much of too many things voluntarily, wound up in real trouble and then made up the story as a cover. After all, she can't tell the truth because very few people have any sympathy for drug users, some even think she deserves to die so she can serve as an example of why you shouldn't do drugs Fortunately no one is likely to question her all that hard, after all, we were good parents, we taught her right from wrong so our precious princess would never do something like that

As a matter of fact, yes. Cops, soldiers, single mothers, and a whole litany of people are nobler than drug addicts.

A lot of cops, soldiers and single mothers use illegal drug. Doctors, lawyers and accountants too for that matter. I see plenty of military people that use drugs when I volunteer. A lot of soldiers love action and excitement. The same thrill seeking trait that makes them willing to jump out of a plane with a rifle in their hand makes drugs like meth and coke very tempting to them. The drug tests the military does aren't an effective deterrent because those drugs don't stay in your body very long. The soldier knows he can party on Friday and still pass his drug test on monday. It's comforting to demonize drug users as criminals and losers but in reality they can be found at all levels of our society. They aren't always losers looking for spare change at the interstate exit, many of them are our co-workers, neighbors, friends and family.

point taken.
I understand the stupidity of my friends' actions, but still...Even though I have ample and good reason to leave them to their own devices, I feel that, deep in my core, I need to be there for them. If that's all I can do, than perhaps that will have to suffice...I do see certain things as being outside of their own fault, although some things are indeed almost certainly consequences of their own actions.

I defend them, I do not defend what they're doing...perhaps I let those two things blur when I think about the issues...because I do love and care about my friends, and I maintain my loyalty towards them, even though I know at times that they are screwing up...I warn and preach to them, and try to sit down heart to heart...but it seems to be so deep rooted in their nature that I can't get through. Even if they die as a result of their choices, I can rest in good conscience KNOWING for certain that I exhausted every possible option trying to help them, and moreover, knowing that I was there for them.

That's all a friend in my position can really do, is be there, and support them, not their habit mind you, but support their safety and support them emotionally and psychologically, to the best of my ability.

I know I'm probably contradicting earlier statments, but I think about this alot, and my opinions about it waver, and it really is a good thing to write it down...because this moment of clarity about the issue might be fleeting as soon as I see them in trouble again, and my messiah complex kicks in.

In my experience you can help your friends. Granted, when someone is bound and determined to self-destruct then there is nothing that you or anyone else can do for them but those are just the most extreme cases. Of course you don't stop caring about a friend just because they popped a pill or did a line- you wouldn't be much of a friend if you did. What you can do is refuse to be a part of the drug use while continuing to be a friend. That way you will be there to offer the support your friend needs without encouraging the problem. Sometimes just leading by example makes the strongest statement of all. That's my answer to the problem, I try to lead by example.

[Tom Yum]

I think more often than not the "victim" took too much of too many things voluntarily, wound up in real trouble and then made up the story as a cover. After all, she can't tell the truth because very few people have any sympathy for drug users, some even think she deserves to die so she can serve as an example of why you shouldn't do drugs Fortunately no one is likely to question her all that hard, after all, we were good parents, we taught her right from wrong so our precious princess would never do something like that

You're discussing a deeper issue, personal accountability.

A while back, I heard some story on the news of some lady who was out partying with her friends who had gotten really drunk and had taken some kind of hallucinogen. She hit a homeless man crossing the street and he got lodged into her windshield. While he lay half hanging out of the windshiled, cut badly and moaning, she drove her car somewhere else and tried to dump him rather than call an ambulance and render aid.

She tried to lie about it. Whether it was a he or she doesn't matter, its the personal accountability issue, especially when another person's life was at stake.

A lot of cops, soldiers and single mothers use illegal drug. Doctors, lawyers and accountants too for that matter. I see plenty of military people that use drugs when I volunteer. A lot of soldiers love action and excitement. The same thrill seeking trait that makes them willing to jump out of a plane with a rifle in their hand makes drugs like meth and coke very tempting to them.

Coorelation is not causation. Not every thrill seeker is someone who will blow money on meth, coke or an upper. Alot of activities can get you in the zone without chemicals; for some its golf for others it could be parachuting. Ol' George Bush Sr. parachuted for his 75th birthday. I hope I can do that.

Sure some activities are more risky than others, but that's a matter of preferences. I've had to give random blood, hair and urine samples for work - randomly - and allways test negative for illegal substances, but despite this I enjoy sports that alot of people don't.

I guess that makes me crazy (psychological reports say otherwise). I'll accept uncanny as a more fitting adjective...

What you can do is refuse to be a part of the drug use while continuing to be a friend. That way you will be there to offer the support your friend needs without encouraging the problem. Sometimes just leading by example makes the strongest statement of all. That's my answer to the problem, I try to lead by example.

Thanks. I believe that's the best kind of standard to set!

[Sagacious Lu]

You're discussing a deeper issue, personal accountability.

A while back, I heard some story on the news of some lady who was out partying with her friends who had gotten really drunk and had taken some kind of hallucinogen. She hit a homeless man crossing the street and he got lodged into her windshield. While he lay half hanging out of the windshiled, cut badly and moaning, she drove her car somewhere else and tried to dump him rather than call an ambulance and render aid.

She tried to lie about it. Whether it was a he or she doesn't matter, its the personal accountability issue, especially when another person's life was at stake.

I remember hearing that story, if my memory serves she was a nurse, and it was ecstacy that she was on. That's a very disturbing, story. What I was trying to say is that although rapists definately have used roofies and GHB they're usually taken voluntarily. I think a lot of the reports of these drugs benig slipped to people are bogus cover stories. It's definately something to be aware of, but it's not like there are armies of rapists armed with GHB just waiting for helpless little red riding hood- drugs cause enough real problems without making it worse by being paranoid.

Coorelation is not causation. Not every thrill seeker is someone who will blow money on meth, coke or an upper. Alot of activities can get you in the zone without chemicals; for some its golf for others it could be parachuting. Ol' George Bush Sr. parachuted for his 75th birthday. I hope I can do that.

Sure some activities are more risky than others, but that's a matter of preferences. I've had to give random blood, hair and urine samples for work - randomly - and allways test negative for illegal substances, but despite this I enjoy sports that alot of people don't.

I guess that makes me crazy (psychological reports say otherwise). I'll accept uncanny as a more fitting adjective...

I certainly didn't mean to say that all soldiers are drug users, but I definately think drug use is a problem for the military just like it is for civilian enterprises. My post is a close paraphrase of something a friend of mine told me. He's a recovered meth addict who served in the army. He told me that he was not, by far, the only one who did that sort of thing. Not all drug users can be stereotyped as dead beats who are throwing their life away, many of them are hard working, talented individuals despite the fact that they aren't perfect. The soldier I'm talking about is a great example of that sort of person. I'm not defending the drug use, I'm just saying don't be too quick to judge the guy because there are a lot of good things about him too.

Thanks. I believe that's the best kind of standard to set!

Thanks, I'll try not to stay up on my soap box for too long; I know the longer I keep going the fewer people are likely to pay attention