The Brutality of it...

[bigred389]

If you really think training makes you more likely to be involved ina physical altercation, why are you training?

No, he said it ATTRACTS people(goons) more likely to be involved in an altercation.

Doesn't necessarily mean self-defense...just think about the last obnoxious tatooed loudmouth skinhead punk you saw. He's the kind of guy who's body language/characteristics screams "I'm looking for a fight." And at some point...somebody might decide to take him up on that non-verbal offer.

[jubaji]

why do pacifists get killed then?

'Cause they walk around saying stuff like "A loving person lives in a loving world. A hostile person lives in a hostile world: everyone you meet is your mirror." and people get so annoyed that they kill them.

[treelizard]

"A loving person lives in a loving world. A hostile person lives in a hostile world: everyone you meet is your mirror." -Ken S. Keyes, Jr.

Bullshit, why do pacifists get killed then?

[treelizard]

I bet many women you know have been assaulted too but just aren't telling you about it. I think the stats are now 1 in 6 women, and I bet it's much higher than that since so many assaults are unreported.

And yeah, I disagree. Criminals look for easy targets. If you train you are less likely to look like an easy target. So unless you're just starting shit I don't think that'll make you more likely to be involved in a physical altercation... unless you are stepping in to protect someone else.

If you really think training makes you more likely to be involved ina physical altercation, why are you training?

[bOoRadley]

Most woman you know have been assaulted?

What?

Where the hell do you live? Darfur?

And yes I do believe that MMA/combat training attracts individuals who would be more likely to be involved in a physical altercation...more so than other sports or hobbies, I think the type of people who take tennis lessons or pilates would differ greatly from the goons I've met in BJJ and boxing. Do you disagree?

[treelizard]

See the thing is that despite statistics, I know that "most women I know" have been assaulted. What floors me is that so many men I know who spend thousands of dollars on their training, you talk to their wives who have been followed, gotten threatening phone calls, etc. on numerous occasions and they don't train even though they're much more likely to have to use such skills.

[treelizard]

Actually I don't watch television... I do read the papers but most of it is filler. The people I know who were involved in physical altercations didn't train. Are you saying that training makes you more likely to get in a physical altercation?

[bOoRadley]

"I'm not entirely convinced. It's just that I hear stories all the time from people who were raped or beaten. I read newspaper articles in addition to the anecdotes"

This is what I mean when I say that our need to defend ourselves may be in our heads...most people don't realize that statistically violent crime in north america is actually down...murder is down, rape is down, random violence committed against strangers is way down. And how would anyone realize this or feel safe when you turn on the news and 99% of it revolves around crime because that's what gets viewers. It's 55 minutes of death and destruction and at the end they throw in a feel good story about a dog that water skis or some ridiculous bullshit.

Yes you may know people who have been hospitalized or have been involved somehow in a physical altercation but you're not like regular people...you train in a combat martial art and probably know many people who would be far more likely to be involved in a physical altercation thank the average person.

"A loving person lives in a loving world. A hostile person lives in a hostile world: everyone you meet is your mirror." -Ken S. Keyes, Jr.

[Garland]

Hmmmmm.... I would not put finger breaking in the same class as throat crushing and eye gouging. I have broken fingers during class and had no problem continuing. I seriously doubt it would stop someone truly set on doing you harm.

Alot of these things can happen in any sporting event, however...so kiddies, safety first!

(warning, very, VERY graphic...good music though, who likes 2 live crew...hollaa)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePVfmDHP34M&search=eye%20gouge

**** that shit...I will NEVER get on a pair of iceskates...ever again!

[treelizard]

Hmmm, I'm not entirely convinced. It's just that I hear stories all the time from people who were raped or beaten. I read newspaper articles in addition to the anecdotes. I have had friends killed or hospitalized. I know that there is violence out there, and I do my best to avoid it. But I don't think that the ability to avoid it means it isn't there.

As I was biking home today I noticed two men who were standing at a green light looking like they were going to turn right. They turned around, looked at me and just stood there. I of course kept a really nice sized distance, and when they noticed me park my bike, basically, they proceeded to cross. I waited until they were out of reach and walked straight. I also noticed, while on a payphone last night (facing the street instead of staring at the phone box) some guy walking towards me and then I saw the glimmer of silver in his hands... I crossed the street pretty quickly and made distance. Now there could be a million different reasons that don't involve physical violence to explain two guys basically waiting to talk to me at a stoplight, and one guy walking towards me fairly quickly with a knife in his palm. I didn't get the Spidey sense feeling, never really felt in any danger. But I sure as hell am not going to risk my own safety to figure out whether or not I'm right.

I do agree though that the risk of personal harm is much too low to justify me investing the amount of time and energy I do into my own training. I'm still trying to figure out why I'm actually doing it. I'm sure I could uncover the secret hidden motives somewhere...

[Sagacious Lu]

Maybe the need to defend ourselves is mostly in our head?

This is an interesting point. I've been training in some form of combat sport (wrestling, boxing) or MA since I was 13 or so, although I've never felt particularly threatened by the world around me. It's just something I like doing. I've been thinking about this a lot, especially since I've gotten to know some of the on-line MA community. At least in America the vast majority of people never have to defend themselves from a serious attack. Sure, it can happen to anyone at any time, but any number of other threats (car crash, cancer etc.) are much more likely. I think most of us here would agree that it feels good to know that you can defend yourself if you have to though, which one of the good reasons people train. Just the same, it's not any where near likely enough to justify the hours I regularly spend training. I feel this way despite having spent a lot of my life in high-crime towns like New Orleans and Atlanta. It would be paranoid to spend this much time preparing for something that statistically is so unlikely to happen.
One of my neighbors, who has been living in my part of Atlanta all her life, is a very friendly lady around 60 years old or so. She lives by herself and can frequently be seen taking a stroll around the neighborhood. Our part of town still can be pretty rough, and it was A LOT worse 10-20 years ago. Even so, she's never had a problem other than having her car broken into despite the fact that she doesn't do anything in particular to protect herself. That's not because she's been lucky, it's because she's never been unlucky.
To be honest, I think the paranoia and suspicion that a lot of people have insulates them from social anxiety a lot more than it protects them from real physical danger. By treating the people around them as potential threats that have to be managed they don't have to relate to them socially or emotionally. The suspicion (aka hostility even if they'd never admit that's what it is) that they treat the people around them with keeps the rest of the world at arms length socially. That protects them from their personal insecurities a lot more than it does actual physical threats. Personally I find practicing MA to extremely rewarding and I recommend it to anyone who will listen, but I also think it's sad how afraid many people are of the people around them.

[bOoRadley]

You're right I do need to "get over it"...I've just never been in a situation where I've needed to hurt someone like that so I don't know what it feels like to be in danger. It's not like I'm some sheltered shut in or anything either, I've traveled all over the world, I've been mugged at knife point, I've had the occasional bar room scrap...I've just never felt that threatened, I never felt like I was in so much danger that I would have had to viciously attack someones eyes, or bite their ear off, etc...and obviously I'm right because I'm here, alive and in one piece. Maybe the need to defend ourselves is mostly in our head?

[jubaji]

for whatever its worth...

I don't know, I guess I'm cursed with a good imagination...I can vividly picture how these things would feel, I can hear the snap of the bones or the gasping bloody gurgle of someone with a crushed larynx trying to draw a breath. .

You should keep in mind that the fact that you are speaking of "imagination" is a key distinction between what you are studying now and what you were previously studying.

[treelizard]

Yeah, feeling weird about it is normal. It just means you're human. Congratulations, as a lot of people have lost that humanity. Now get over it and stop sympathizing with your attacker.

And by the way, many of the BJJ guys I know are not macho at all and are some of the nicest guys I've ever met...and there are plenty of "combatives" people that are also assholes. Your generalization is not a "fact."

[bOoRadley]

I wasn't being totally clear when I said it "weirded me out" and that I was "uncomfortable" with it so I'll elaborate...the punching, kneeing, kicking, head butting, throwing someone on their head, that kind of thing doesn't bother me at all it just makes me flinch a little to think of putting my knee on someones throat and crushing it, it makes me wince to think about snapping fingers and popping joints and putting my thumbs in someones eyes. I don't know, I guess I'm cursed with a good imagination...I can vividly picture how these things would feel, I can hear the snap of the bones or the gasping bloody gurgle of someone with a crushed larynx trying to draw a breath. It's not like I'm a sissy and I have to run to the bathroom and cry, it just kinda of gives me the heebeejeebies to imagine doing that to someone.


The instructors where I study try to instill in us the idea that we should avoid physical altercations at all cost, at the expense of our ego, pride etc...we're told to presume that anytime someone is attempting to engage us in a fight that they are armed and not alone. We're also taught that our greatest tools or weapons in our arsenal are "awareness & intuition". I like this philosophy and I don't think I would continue with it if there wasn't this kind of attitude at the club. I find it a welcome change from the machismo of the BJJ and Boxing crowds I used to study with and that's why I taunt them in the BJJ forum...they think there invincible and, I know I'm generalizing, for the most part are just a bunch of Spike TV watching goons...sorry but it's a fact.