victim mentality...

[treelizard]

The dictionary defines a victim as one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent, as a (1) : one that is injured, destroyed, or sacrificed under any of various conditions (2) : one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment b : one that is tricked or duped

She is responsible for staying with him AND he is still responsible (legally and ethically) for his abusive behavior. It's not one or the other.

[Tom Yum]

Hey, lots of people rely on crutches to get them through the day and in the end they're all likely to bring you bad things. One thing I know for sure though, some people make the same self-destructive decisions day after day, year after year and when someone chooses not to learn from their mistakes they have only themselves to blame for what they get.

Let's be more specific.

Drugs, perhaps could be a crutch. My drug of choice: caffeine

Abusive relationships? Again I blame the caffeine...

[Sagacious Lu]

She is responsible for staying with him AND he is still responsible (legally and ethically) for his abusive behavior. It's not one or the other.

I agree completely with you here; and yes booze is different in that the liquor store owner isn't responsible for the drunk but the ogre is definately responsible for his violence.

[Tom Yum]

The dictionary defines a victim as one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent, as a (1) : one that is injured, destroyed, or sacrificed under any of various conditions (2) : one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment b : one that is tricked or duped

She is responsible for staying with him AND he is still responsible (legally and ethically) for his abusive behavior. It's not one or the other.

Got no problem with this under the context that you're talking about.

...I'm just concerned that during my next physical check up, the doctor will noticed my jittery hands, slightly elevated blood pressure, stinkiness and excessive bathroom trips and find out that I am a caffeine addict

[treelizard]

...I'm just concerned that during my next physical check up, the doctor will noticed my jittery hands, slightly elevated blood pressure, stinkiness and excessive bathroom trips and find out that I am a caffeine addict

So quit!

And get thee to the race track!!

[Tom Yum]

So quit!

And get thee to the race track!!

I'll be there.

[Sagacious Lu]

I'm sure I could give up my morning coffee if I really wanted to, I just can't think of a good reason to try

[kukri]

i agree

Kukri,
I think I understand what you're saying, but I think your post points out a big part of the problem - people who see themselves as victims. Considering circumcision, the opinions of the Catholic church, and things like that abusive is, to me at least, something of a cop out. I mean, the very first step in taking control of your life is refusing to blame others for one's circumstances. By giving a nod to everyone from the doctor who circumcised you when you were an infant to the priests in a religion no one is forcing you to follow empowers literally everyone around you, doesn't it? By saying that these people are "abusing" you, aren't you allowing them control of your mindset with their behavior. When you say "I'm being opressed by the Catholic Church," you are allowing that to be true.

All I'm saying is that we as human beings have the capacity to control our own attitudes, our thoughts, our words, and our actions. With that much under our control - and ONLY our control - how is it possible for someone to abuse you without your consent? I know that may make some people cringe, but let me clarify. I'm not saying that a woman who is abused by some a-hole has allowed it to happen (though many of the women in this situation do just that). I'm saying that how she resists, what she does before, during, and after the fact are all her choices to make. There are stories of Jewish prisoners in Auschwitz who managed to wake up every day amidst their dead and dying companions, family, and friends; people who had to help shovel the nearly skeletal remains of fresh dead friends literally worked to death by the Nazis. Some stories tell how these survivors managed to find some sense of hope, of love, and of beauty despite what the Nazis did to break them. It would certainly have been easy to say "All bets are off, and it's every man for himself!" No one would have blamed them. Yet somehow, despite torture, mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual anguish the likes of which we'll never even have nightmares about, these survivosrs chose to remain positive. They chose to hand out their one and only piece of bread - those precious few calories that could easily mean the difference between living and dying. They chose to keep up spirits with stories of better days past, and the hope of better days yet to come. There are stories during every tragedy of people who find a way to remain positive; to remain in control of their attitudes if not their circumstances. Driven by that, the actions they choose are not at all "victim."

And I doubt, if you had the chance to interview these heroic people, you'd hear any talk about how the opinions of the Catholic church or anyone else for that matter made them choose how to live. It starts, as it always has, from the willingness and ability to say, "Everything in my entire life is my fault, successes and failures alike, and Life is Fair. I may not get to choose everything that happens to me, but I can damned sure choose what to do with it once it has." Some view the world as a series of tragic events, and some see it as a host of opportunities. Some see the glass half full, others half empty. I suspect that the ones who find themselves thriving in even the most tragic of circumstances manage to realize that the glass is, in fact, entirely full. Only someone so fixated on the water that they ignore the air above it would ever see it as partially filled anyway. The difference between the victim and the one who thrives is simply the ability to see themselves as a part of the whole - not the center of it. The victim mentality ceases when one realizes and puts into practice the principle that we can individually affect our own environments - that "bad things are not happening to me." It's the ability to shape one's environment to suit his/her needs, or the willingness and ability to shape oneself when the environment refuses to budge that makes the difference. At least, that's where it starts.

I agree...but there are those who do not realize what abuse is...I was not saying it was abuse...I was trying to say that abuse is when you have no say in what happens...you always have a say of how you deal with what happened...I have also used the expression of a rose thorn...one may be pricked by a thorn and become a rose gardner...one may be pricked by a rose thorn and forever be traumatized even by a pisture of a rose or the scent of a rose...I know what I speak of ...I was burned over and over again on my bottom on the stove ...at the age of 2 years old...sexualy abused and emotionaly abused for twenty years...I am a very positive and powerful creature full of respect for life and faithful to my martial arts system for giving me the tools on how to control my emotions and how not to act out of an emotion but a calm place of peace...I believe that we need to speak out as strong women and say yes I was abused But I am NOT A VICTOM!!!I say this with conviction...I say to all women and men stand up and be proud of what you make of your self for we all have the energy and light for possitive virbrations yeaha...

[kukri]

I agree about personal resposability...but if one comes out and says to a women or better yet a child after there raped it is your responsability...they may not be strong enough to understand...Not every one can understand take resposibilty...Most people especialy in this country ...say what about me???When do I get to have fun...They don't even know that it is the way they look at things...To take resposibilty for there own happyness in self not on the out side...

[Tom Yum]

Lizards don't have hair.

Well that settles it.....



jubaji you owe me a coke

[Tom Yum]

Certainly, it does. But maybe not to the same level in that it allows for forgiveness of sin and the permanence of soul in heaven or hell. Buddhism is more about personal responsibility in the here and now, and doesn't allow for the same notion that sins will be forgiven if the repentent will ask forgiveness.

That's certainly not to say that one is better than the other, though, or that one is right and the other isn't! Even the Dalai Lama agrees that all the great religions deserve respect and if practiced correctly lead to love and peace. I think all Lu is trying to say is that in Buddhism, one often finds the responsibility of living so as not to require forgiveness - and the consequences of failing to do so - squarely placed on one's own shoulders without the possibility of being forgiven by a higher Authority.

The idea of repenting is to remove that behavior from one's life, seeking forgiveness from those involved and asking the lord for forgiveness.

[treelizard]

I agree about personal resposability...but if one comes out and says to a women or better yet a child after there raped it is your responsability...they may not be strong enough to understand...Not every one can understand take resposibilty...Most people especialy in this country ...say what about me???When do I get to have fun...They don't even know that it is the way they look at things...To take resposibilty for there own happyness in self not on the out side...

"When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a child; but when I became an adult I put away childish things."

I think that's from the Bible!

[Tom Yum]

"When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a child; but when I became an adult I put away childish things."

I think that's from the Bible!

Yes, but this doesn't have anything to do with experiencing trauma as a child.

[treelizard]

Yes, but this doesn't have anything to do with experiencing trauma as a child.

No it doesn't, but it's about taking responsibility, which is what Kukri wrote about.

[treelizard]

"Happiness and freedom begin with a clear understanding of one principle:
some things are within our control and some things are not. It is only after
you have faced up to this fundamental rule and learned to distinguish
between what you can and cannot control that inner tranquility and outer
effectiveness become possible... ...Remember too, that if you think you
have free rein over things that are naturally beyond your control, or if you
attempt to adopt the affairs of others as your own, your pursuits will be
thwarted and you will become a frustrated, anxious and fault-finding
person."

- Epicetus (49 A.D.)