Morality and Weapons

[Little Apple]

Ha ha ha! These are some great posts! To diverge slightly from the topic: Utilitarian Ethics is not the only system, and in any case it was developed for governing a large group of people. It was never meant to be used as a code for an individual in his personal moral situations. The fact that people keep trying to use it that way in no way means that that's what it's for.

Also: Correct me if I'm wrong here Mike, but doesn't the form in question actually ask if you are a convicted felon? If you are convicted then stating so on a form is not incriminating yourself. If you are in a gun shop and worried about legality, than you have probably already served your sentence.

Anyway, I gather that we've decided a couple things:

1) You must know yourself, and your weapon, so that you'll have some idea what it can do, and whether you actually are willing to carry it.

2) You need to be prepared to face every consequence of using any weapon you carry. This includes your own emotional backlash.

3) If you are trained in the weapon you choose to carry, you aren't that likely to be disarmed if you are actually using that weapon. (As opposed to holding it out a bit, and then cringing if you get rushed.)

4) Pepper spray is almost useless as a self defense tool.

5) Ridged systems of morality are not useful on a situational basis and language is difficult to communicate in.

Did I miss anything?

[Garland]

Anyway, I gather that we've decided a couple things:

1) You must know yourself, and your weapon, so that you'll have some idea what it can do, and whether you actually are willing to carry it.

2) You need to be prepared to face every consequence of using any weapon you carry. This includes your own emotional backlash.

3) If you are trained in the weapon you choose to carry, you aren't that likely to be disarmed if you are actually using that weapon. (As opposed to holding it out a bit, and then cringing if you get rushed.)

4) Pepper spray is almost useless as a self defense tool.

5) Ridged systems of morality are not useful on a situational basis and language is difficult to communicate in.

Did I miss anything?

When you put it that way...we really have covered a great deal of ground here, huh?

and more slightly off topic stuff coming right up!

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TXSLcl1R_E&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

[Odd-toed]

I know this may sound strange but what is the law on mace and other chemical sprays in the UK? I know we have rape alarms etc but the truth is as a woman I put no faith in these at all, the only one I have is in my car and the driving I do I have seen a lot of road rage and have had friends who have had people get out of the cars and try to hit them through the window, so I view it you come to my window I am going to use it in your face! (also I do like the one where you can spray the person’s face blue!) In a street situation I don’t think they are great, but willing to be open on this?

I think that DickHardman has a really good point, I have only had 3 situations in my life, all happened before I was training, 2 went very wrong and the 3rd one was when a woman in a bar decided that she did not like me, I immediately jumped to the defensive, hand was clenched and I was in her face back, my emotions where really going for it – I now know this to be the adrenalin dump, however I was with friends and my boyfriend and he was one who stepped in b/c what he could see and I could not was this woman’s friend had her hand around her bottle getting ready to use it. My fear now is that my reaction was not thought out and was very impulsive - if I carried anything like a knife would I use it before I should. Therefore I do NOT carry a knife to protect me!

I still stand by the fact that it’s your choice to carry a weapon, but you must also openly accept the responsibility of your actions in using it or introducing it into a situation, I think the best quote I have ever heard and one I stand by is “I would prefer to be tried by 12, than carried by 6”. I think that if you have a weapon on you it gives you more confidence, which is fine, at the end of the day its personal preference, if carrying a weapon makes you feel better then fine, but I think you need to ask yourself WHY.

[TTEscrima]

This says it all

To all you old law dogs now just sitting in the shade, current pistolreos and other fervent Second Amendment believers: I would rather be your friend, but if you are not interested in that, I am prepared to be a capable and efficient enemy. This is the law: the purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental. As a wise man once said:
1. Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
2. If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics SUCK!
3. I carry a gun(knife) because a cop is too heavy.
4. America is not at war. The U.S. Military is at war. America is at the Mall.
5. When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.(shoot first, then call 911)
6. A reporter did a human interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him"Why do you carry a .45?"The ranger responded,"Because they don't make a .46."
7. An armed man will kill an unarmed man with monotonous regularity.
8. An old sheriff was attending an awards dinner when a lady commented on his wearing a sidearm."Sheriff. I see you have your pistol. Are you expecting trouble?" "No Ma'am. If I were expecting trouble, I'd have brought my rifle"
9. Beware the man who only has one gun. He probably knows how to use it.
10. A "soccer mom" once asked me if I had a gun in the house to which I replied yes. She said "well I certainly hope It's not loaded." I replied "Of course it is." She then asked, "Are you afraid of some evildoer coming into your house and doing bad things?" My reply was, "No, not at all. I'm also not afraid of the house catching fire,but I have fire extinguishers and they are all loaded".
11. We had a nice old couple in Phoenix. Someone decided to break down their door one night. Like good citizens without a clue they called 911. They were only dead about twenty minutes when the cops arrived. If they had a gun they would be alive today and the bad guy(s) would be dead. The killer(s) were never caught.
12. Last summer a killer chased a man into a convenience store and shot him. Then he killed the clerk because he was a witness. The first victim lived. Had the clerk had a weapon, the bad guy would be dead and both victims would be alive.
13. At a business or a church, school or college, where guns are banned only the evil guys have guns and the "do-gooders" that prevent good people from defending themselves by carrying a weapon are not the victims often enough.
14. And why in the hell should I defend someone that won't defend themselves. The cops will clean up the bodies when they get there.
15. The Second Amendment is your right. Protect it or lose it.

http://www.jamesakeating.com/maajak1.html

[Little Apple]

Good name for your post.

[treelizard]

I haven't read this whole thread but here's my $.02 anyway... I used to carry weapons everywhere I went until I started teaching. Since it's basically a felony to have so much as a pocket knife within a certain distance of a school, I knew I couldn't carry to work. I also knew that I would be likely to "accidentally" have something on or near my car if I carried at all, so I started carrying more and more infrequently. I guess I felt also like I had to get used to not carrying so I could do it without feeling naked since I feel like the area I work at is the place where I am most likely to get into a physical confrontation. I take many precautions (such as not getting gas near my work and basically just driving straight home) and we have the best security team at my school that I could ask for. So far my biggest issues have been a kid squaring up to me (which I honestly just started laughing and that seemed to disarm him), a lockdown (which was a false alarm as there was nobody inside the school, but I would have been relatively prepared if there were), someone tagging on my vehicle (this person was caught on camera and there were many witnesses some of whom intervened), and most recently a six-person fight. I responded to that by getting help, which basically caused everyone to disperse and then when I got help we figured out who was involved. I was kind of mad at myself for not physically stopping it but I know of very few people who would try to take on six kids on their own, and I am pretty happy with the outcome with what I did do--the fight ended, names were gotten, and there weren't additional people that got hurt.

The crazy thing is that it is ILLEGAL for me to physically touch any student. This includes taking someone's hand to escort them to the door or even putting a hand on their shoulder. The advice I received about preventing violence, breaking up fights, etc. involved wearing running shoes, not allowing anyone to get between you and an exit, getting out of the room and getting a billion dollar umbrella policy to protect from lawsuits, etc. Lots of "do not touch the student under any circumstances." I guess when it comes down to it, I want my students to be safe and running away is safer than engaging. As far as breaking up fights, I feel like it would theoretically be cool and heroic to break up a fight rather than let students cause serious harm to one another, but I would not take it on on my own. Honestly, hepatitis and HIV are two good reasons to stay away from fighting children. Sound callous? Maybe.

Anyway, I know I've been pushing SBGi a lot but this is a great article:

http://www.straightblastgym.com/awareness_vs.htm

[GranFire]

Holy Cow, where do you teach?!

But I guess part of being trained in the MA is also knowing how not to fight...(I can't find any fault in not getting between fighting parties...any pet owner knows that's the best way to get bit by your own Fluffy...)

[DickHardman]

I haven't read this whole thread but here's my $.02 anyway... I used to carry weapons everywhere I went until I started teaching. Since it's basically a felony to have so much as a pocket knife within a certain distance of a school, I knew I couldn't carry to work. I also knew that I would be likely to "accidentally" have something on or near my car if I carried at all, so I started carrying more and more infrequently. I guess I felt also like I had to get used to not carrying so I could do it without feeling naked since I feel like the area I work at is the place where I am most likely to get into a physical confrontation. I take many precautions (such as not getting gas near my work and basically just driving straight home) and we have the best security team at my school that I could ask for. So far my biggest issues have been a kid squaring up to me (which I honestly just started laughing and that seemed to disarm him), a lockdown (which was a false alarm as there was nobody inside the school, but I would have been relatively prepared if there were), someone tagging on my vehicle (this person was caught on camera and there were many witnesses some of whom intervened), and most recently a six-person fight. I responded to that by getting help, which basically caused everyone to disperse and then when I got help we figured out who was involved. I was kind of mad at myself for not physically stopping it but I know of very few people who would try to take on six kids on their own, and I am pretty happy with the outcome with what I did do--the fight ended, names were gotten, and there weren't additional people that got hurt.

The crazy thing is that it is ILLEGAL for me to physically touch any student. This includes taking someone's hand to escort them to the door or even putting a hand on their shoulder. The advice I received about preventing violence, breaking up fights, etc. involved wearing running shoes, not allowing anyone to get between you and an exit, getting out of the room and getting a billion dollar umbrella policy to protect from lawsuits, etc. Lots of "do not touch the student under any circumstances." I guess when it comes down to it, I want my students to be safe and running away is safer than engaging. As far as breaking up fights, I feel like it would theoretically be cool and heroic to break up a fight rather than let students cause serious harm to one another, but I would not take it on on my own. Honestly, hepatitis and HIV are two good reasons to stay away from fighting children. Sound callous? Maybe.

Anyway, I know I've been pushing SBGi a lot but this is a great article:
http://www.straightblastgym.com/awareness_vs.htm

take a look at the fred perrin pen. its for SD. the cap can be used as a punch dagger as well

http://www.edcknives.com/vcom/product_info.php?products_id=1105

cold steel sharkie is also made for self defense.....

http://www.coldsteel.com/91sp.html

you can also carry regular items that double as weapons. for example you could keep a decent sized screw driver in your desk, say you need it for something around the classroom or your desk lock gets stuck and u need to pry it open or something. there are plenty of items you can use as weapons that wont raise any suspicion.

flashlights
pencils/pens
screw drivers
hammers
deoderant sticks and spray cans
a fork for your lunch


get creative as you want. carry weapons at all times.

[TTEscrima]

take a look at the fred perrin pen. its for SD. the cap can be used as a punch dagger as well

http://www.edcknives.com/vcom/product_info.php?products_id=1105

cold steel sharkie is also made for self defense.....

http://www.coldsteel.com/91sp.html

Neither of those is a good choice for a deniable weapon, both are made for the gear queer brigade. Any well made pen will do fine without the court being able to prove you were trying to sneak a weapon into a place that didn't allow them.

[DickHardman]

Neither of those is a good choice for a deniable weapon, both are made for the gear queer brigade. Any well made pen will do fine without the court being able to prove you were trying to sneak a weapon into a place that didn't allow them.

screw the court man. id rather save my life first, then suck off johnny cochrane and beg him to cut a deal with the DA later.

[TTEscrima]

screw the court man. id rather save my life first, then suck off johnny cochrane and beg him to cut a deal with the DA later.

Self defense is about decreasing your vulnerability, both of those toys increase your vulnerability without any benefit over a normal pen, they're marketing tools not SD tools. Anyone who can defend themselves with one of those could do it with any ink pen or marker.

[treelizard]

Great. I dare you to take your screwdrivers and pens and forks and deodorant sticks spend ten minutes in the neighborhood where I teach trying to break up gang initiations and then we'll talk.

take a look at the fred perrin pen. its for SD. the cap can be used as a punch dagger as well

http://www.edcknives.com/vcom/product_info.php?products_id=1105

cold steel sharkie is also made for self defense.....

http://www.coldsteel.com/91sp.html

you can also carry regular items that double as weapons. for example you could keep a decent sized screw driver in your desk, say you need it for something around the classroom or your desk lock gets stuck and u need to pry it open or something. there are plenty of items you can use as weapons that wont raise any suspicion.

flashlights
pencils/pens
screw drivers
hammers
deoderant sticks and spray cans
a fork for your lunch


get creative as you want. carry weapons at all times.

[treelizard]

Holy Cow, where do you teach?!

But I guess part of being trained in the MA is also knowing how not to fight...(I can't find any fault in not getting between fighting parties...any pet owner knows that's the best way to get bit by your own Fluffy...)

I break up boy fights all the time, it's the girls that scare me. They don't immediately stop fighting as soon as you walk over. I'd want at least one person per girl, two if possible.

[DickHardman]

Self defense is about decreasing your vulnerability, both of those toys increase your vulnerability without any benefit over a normal pen, they're marketing tools not SD tools. Anyone who can defend themselves with one of those could do it with any ink pen or marker.

actually they are reinforced to decrease the chance of them breaking on impact. i doubt your normal bic pen is anywhere as strong. plus, these pens arent that expensive, they are the same price as regular pens. so why not buy one specifically made not to break when you are using it to split open someones skull?? i mean i could probably defend myself just fine using a 16 sinker nail i pick up off the ground at work on my way to my car, should i not buy any knives or impact weapons in that case?

[TTEscrima]

actually they are reinforced to decrease the chance of them breaking on impact. i doubt your normal bic pen is anywhere as strong. plus, these pens arent that expensive, they are the same price as regular pens. so why not buy one specifically made not to break when you are using it to split open someones skull?? i mean i could probably defend myself just fine using a 16 sinker nail i pick up off the ground at work on my way to my car, should i not buy any knives or impact weapons in that case?

How much of pen sticks out of your hand when it's gripped like you would use it when striking with it? An inch? That's unlikely to break on a human and if it does it will just have a jagged edge for the next strike. Buying weapons is fine, just don't get caught up in the cool toy market.