Morality and Weapons

[Little Apple]

So as a point of conversation: I know several martial artists who, after learning a bit about knife work, stopped carrying a knife. They weren't willing to take the risk that they would kill someone. One of these people actually stopped carrying a knife after he DID kill someone. (4 armed men jumped him).

My question: What do you think of that choice? To deliberately not carry a legal weapon that you know how to use? Is is moral and responsible? Is it foolish and idealistic? What do you think?

[Garland]

He probably realised that he would've survived and all four of the guys who jumped him would have too if he hadn't used the knife. He may look back on the beating he would have taken and think that it would've been considerably better than taking another human being's life away.

What is it in some people that allow them to take somebody else's life with little to no pains and pangs of conscience, and others to battle with their actions for the rest of their lives? I think that's a pertinent question.

In my very humble opinion:
If you knowingly cannot use a weapon designed with the express purpose of taking another's life without it ruining the rest of yours...you shouldn't carry it. If you take somebody else's life and can't live with that, you're essentially walking wounded for the rest of your days.

You should NOT carry a knife (or any other lethal weapon) without understanding the repercussions of using it, and being prepared to live with whatever decision you make.

[Guest]

Great question and great answer from Garland. Nothing to add to that response.

Quick recommendation:

There is a fantastic ten-minute section at the start of Rick Faye’s Knife DVD, where he goes through this whole thought process in detail, and it is brilliantly explained. Anyone who carries a blade or is thinking about it should get a copy of the DVD. The section in question is probably the best ten minutes of knife instruction I have ever seen.

[GranFire]

Wow.



Well, I don't carry weapons...a pocket knife maybe for the McGyver-ness (I keep missplacing it..I am useless..)

The Gentleman who stopped carrying a weapon after he had used it in ernest may very well suffered some type of post traumatic stress disorder. We are - in this society - no longer trained and accustomed to bloodshed and death.That is the domain of a few, like emergency responders (and I heard it suggested that even in copper/bronze age times the psychological impact on the war faring men was known)

However I do believe that those individuals spouting off about the effectiveness of a certain technique in all it's gory glory have never been closer to real blood then maybe a blood drive...or the quick prick in the finger at the doctor's office. They sound a lot like Robin Williams in 'Survivors'....

[Garland]

Brewer...poignant post.
It won't let me rep you again, but just know that there is so much wisdom and candid, horrifying truth in what you say that it chills me to the bone.

In martial arts circles, there is always one or two clowns in a class that will start either joking around when they're doing knife work or will make light of what they are learning.

Quite frankly...that mentality scares the shit out of me.

When I train knife, I take it VERY seriously, and I try to consider the consequences of my actions and the effects of the knife (not only physically, but psychologically for myself, and also for the grief and gravity of the action upon the other person's family and friends). Joking around with a training knife seems sick to me.

I think it should be necessary in teaching the knife to step in when students do that and tell the people- "you are dead, you just bled out. you will never see your family again, you will never hold your child, everything is over for you." and conversely, "you just took another human being's life away. (reiterate the consequences) You will have to live every day with the consequences of this decision, especially if you end up going to prison for it." Make sure to elaborate that these things, these constructs such as death, killing, prison, and forever have little meaning until they are felt first hand.

I think the lesson I'd take from Little Apple's friend is- when do you just take a beating as opposed to escalating to the point where somebody is likely to lose their life or be maimed (one way or the other) for life?

[Garland]

I know that if I fail in a life or death situation, it's my carcass on that E.R. slab. I know that it's my family parading past my body in tears because I didn't have the will or fortitude to save myself. The flip side is that I recognize what it means to draw a weapon and go to work on someone with it, and that single factor has kept me out of more fights than anything else. As a moral consideration, I am not willing to take on that kind of karma unless it really is me or him. The reality of the situation and the gravity of the consequences has a sobering effect on the ego, and I think it should. Only once ego is removed can you really decide what your own morals will allow.

Is there any way to impart this to your students, or do you think that for somebody to truly recognize that type of gravity, they have to see and/or experience the repercussions of violence first hand? I think the main problem with EVERYONE in this day and age, especially martial artists, is EGO. How do you train that out of somebody?

[Tant01]

....
When I train knife, I take it VERY seriously, and I try to consider the consequences of my actions and the effects of the knife (not only physically, but psychologically for myself, and also for the grief and gravity of the action upon the other person's family and friends). Joking around with a training knife seems sick to me.

I think it should be necessary in teaching the knife to step in when students do that and tell the people- "you are dead, you just bled out. you will never see your family again, you will never hold your child, everything is over for you." and conversely, "you just took another human being's life away. (reiterate the consequences) You will have to live every day with the consequences of this decision, especially if you end up going to prison for it." Make sure to elaborate that these things, these constructs such as death, killing, prison, and forever have little meaning until they are felt first hand.

.....?

Not many people have a realistic understanding of the kind of trauma that can be inflicted with a blade. It is VERY important to understand the irreversible moral and ethical (and legal) consequinces of using any deadly weapon.

Not only that but the sanguinary mess that goes so often without saying.

Blood pressure will have a new and graphic meaning if you ever slice a living "target"...

Makes me nauseated just thinking about it.

We live in a sick world but I'd rather have blood on my hands than be caught unarmed in a moment of need.

[Garland]

I believe that training the knife in earnest requires a certain type of psychological toughness and intestinal fortitude.
Using it, even more so.

The action of driving a knife into somebody is probably pretty straight forward...it's everything else that goes along with it that make training the knife such a "moral test", as I've heard person after person describe it.

As I see it, there are different people that will use a knife in a fight:
-those who lose it in an argument or impulsively, reactively use a knife. Even in a prison situation. (hotheads)
-those using a knife with the intent to kill from the onset, or as a psychological threat to usurp another person's belongings, to rape, etc. (criminals and sociopaths)
-those who use a knife in a minor assault for self defense without understanding the implications. (unlucky good guys)
-those who use a knife in self defense under conditions that warrant its use and who are unprepared psychologically for the implications. (PTSD cases, walking wounded)
-those who use a knowingly use the knife in self defense or combat under conditions that warrant its use and who are fully prepared to deal with the consquences. (military, leo, or very, VERY conscious civilian martial artists)

In order to hurt another human being that way, and walk away from it without destroying yourself...you need to be able to justify your course of action...and I think it's that justification that borders on sociopathology. Murdering somebody outright and being okay with it, and ending somebody through self defense and being okay with it seem to fall pretty close together.

I think that you would have to be truly callous not to feel anything...and I believe that it is the ability, the capacity for true guilt and remorse that seperate inherently good and genuine people from hardened criminals and the truly villanous.

The only way that we as martial artists get around this in training is by detatching ourself to some degree from the meaning behind what we are doing...we intellectualize cutting this and that, but I think few people actively vizualize it and consider the consquences in terms of human drama and the psychological cost.

I carry a knife...but I think I'd have to be completely lost from reality or in truly dire straights to ever use it on another person. To be candid...I could see myself using a knife on somebody in an altered or detatched state (an example would be stumbling across an attempted rape where the person posed no threat to me) and being fine until I had time to reflect upon it. And THAT scares the shit out of me. I think that everybody has a certain potential for psychopathology similar to anti-social personality disorder, and I know that all the empathy and sensitivity I embody could go out the window in a second under the wrong circumstances. Because I know these triggers, which are highly unlikely for me to encounter...I can justify ethically carrying a weapon.

When would you lose your shit? Is there a situation outside of self defense where you might kill another person? Ask yourself these questions honestly without giving the socially OK knee-jerk reaction. How about hurting yourself? These are important questions I don't think enough people reflect upon adequately...look at the gun deaths in this country...most are suicides...others are due to EGO and PRIDE.

[Little Apple]

Wow. Really great responses. I have to say I'm impressed by the depth of your comments Garland- Well done!

I myself do not carry a knife. I don't think my skill level warrants it, and I don't want to take the risk that I provide my attacker with a weapon. My Step-dad trains the police though, and he keeps saying that he wants to put me through firearms training and get me a permit. I'm not sure what I think of that. So far I haven't, but he insists I take the training even if I never own a firearm. I think I would be ok with that.

I think I agree with Garland's first post. You need to know yourself, and know where you need to draw the line for the sake of living with yourself.

[Little Apple]

A-a-a-a-a-a-and Dead thread!

Lol.

OK, so here's another question: referring to my comment about not wanting to provide my attacker with a weapon- and seeing as we're on the women's forum- do you think women are actually safer carrying a weapon, or not? Is the possibility that they will be out massed and disarmed sufficient to make having a weapon a bad idea? To get a perspective on this for the guys: think of fighting multiple people who are ALL at least 2 weight classes above you.

[Guest]

think of fighting multiple people who are ALL at least 2 weight classes above you.

You're fcked.

I try not to bullshit people, especially about self-protection. When people come to me and present a scenario like that, I tell them straight. Outnumbered, outweighed and outgunned is a no-win scenario. People who say otherwise will be teaching you using rare and extreme examples, and that is misleading people. Unless you are exceptional, don't listen to exceptional circumstances.

The question I usually ask is, what is it you are doing in your life that leads you to believe this is a situaton you will encounter? 99.99% of people will never experience this situation. The remaining 0.01% will do so because of:

- The job they do, therefore they will be trained and probably well armed
- They make very bad lifestyle choices, so you reap what you sow
- They are incredibly unfortunate

Thoughts about the latter just breed paranoia, like should I walk round carrying a weapon? If you were ever really that unlucky, then yeah having a weapon is better than no weapon. The question is, do you want to carry a weapon every day of your life just in case you walk round the corner to meet your doom at the hands of 5 thugs? I don't train in speedo trunks every day, just in case I get jumped at the pool. I just don't have the package to pull that off.....if you'll pardon the expression

[Tant01]

A-a-a-a-a-a-and Dead thread!

Lol.

OK, so here's another question: referring to my comment about not wanting to provide my attacker with a weapon- and seeing as we're on the women's forum- do you think women are actually safer carrying a weapon, or not? Is the possibility that they will be out massed and disarmed sufficient to make having a weapon a bad idea? To get a perspective on this for the guys: think of fighting multiple people who are ALL at least 2 weight classes above you.

I say yes, women are safer armed than not.

Is it a bad idea? Not at all. What's the other choice? Should she comply with the felonious intent of her attackers? Lie down and ask them to rape her gently???

I say give her a knife. If she can inflict serious trauma on ONE of them it might be easier to convince the others to take their buddy to the ER.

I'm sure I've said it before but most BAD guys want an easy victim, not a FIGHT. The presence of a weapon can tilt the balance of power in many situations.

Is there a chance she'll be disarmed... Sure. (that's why many cops and folks who are serious about self protection carry a back up weapon)

[Clubber Lang]

You're fcked.

I try not to bullshit people, especially about self-protection. When people come to me and present a scenario like that, I tell them straight. Outnumbered, outweighed and outgunned is a no-win scenario. People who say otherwise will be teaching you using rare and extreme examples, and that is misleading people. Unless you are exceptional, don't listen to exceptional circumstances.

The question I usually ask is, what is it you are doing in your life that leads you to believe this is a situaton you will encounter? 99.99% of people will never experience this situation. The remaining 0.01% will do so because of:

- The job they do, therefore they will be trained and probably well armed
- They make very bad lifestyle choices, so you reap what you sow
- They are incredibly unfortunate

Thoughts about the latter just breed paranoia, like should I walk round carrying a weapon? If you were ever really that unlucky, then yeah having a weapon is better than no weapon. The question is, do you want to carry a weapon every day of your life just in case you walk round the corner to meet your doom at the hands of 5 thugs? I don't train in speedo trunks every day, just in case I get jumped at the pool. I just don't have the package to pull that off.....if you'll pardon the expression

Its not no win, I know plenty of people who have faught and bet multiple opponents. Whats wrong with carrying a weapon every day anyway? All the stuff about lifestyles and will you ever face that theat, you just say the same things all the time.

[Guest]

Shut up you crazy fool!

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

Although not intended as one I will take your last point as a compliment, I do say the same things all the time, because I hold a consistent point of view. Good Self Protection is first and foremost about lifestyle choices and reaching a position of confidence and security. Bad Self-Protection is breeding paranoia and infecting people's minds with unrealistic expectations.

There, I did it again.

The scenario presented to me by Little Apple was multiple opponents all bigger and heavier than you, in my experience I class that as no-win. You say you know people who have succeeded, thats cool. I suspect they or the situation was exceptional, or you are talking about some Doormen buddies who have thrown a few people out of a bar.

[Clubber Lang]

if you are taking about 5 or 6 guys then OK, you don't stand a chance. I'm talking about guys who have faught 2 people, thats multiple opponents, and they used a weapon to their advantage. One guy I know used a blade on two people in a bar and came out without a scratch on him.