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  • Morality and Weapons

    So as a point of conversation: I know several martial artists who, after learning a bit about knife work, stopped carrying a knife. They weren't willing to take the risk that they would kill someone. One of these people actually stopped carrying a knife after he DID kill someone. (4 armed men jumped him).

    My question: What do you think of that choice? To deliberately not carry a legal weapon that you know how to use? Is is moral and responsible? Is it foolish and idealistic? What do you think?

  • #2
    Great question and great answer from Garland. Nothing to add to that response.

    Quick recommendation:

    There is a fantastic ten-minute section at the start of Rick Faye’s Knife DVD, where he goes through this whole thought process in detail, and it is brilliantly explained. Anyone who carries a blade or is thinking about it should get a copy of the DVD. The section in question is probably the best ten minutes of knife instruction I have ever seen.

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    • #3
      Wow.



      Well, I don't carry weapons...a pocket knife maybe for the McGyver-ness (I keep missplacing it..I am useless..)

      The Gentleman who stopped carrying a weapon after he had used it in ernest may very well suffered some type of post traumatic stress disorder. We are - in this society - no longer trained and accustomed to bloodshed and death.That is the domain of a few, like emergency responders (and I heard it suggested that even in copper/bronze age times the psychological impact on the war faring men was known)

      However I do believe that those individuals spouting off about the effectiveness of a certain technique in all it's gory glory have never been closer to real blood then maybe a blood drive...or the quick prick in the finger at the doctor's office. They sound a lot like Robin Williams in 'Survivors'....

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Garland
        ....
        When I train knife, I take it VERY seriously, and I try to consider the consequences of my actions and the effects of the knife (not only physically, but psychologically for myself, and also for the grief and gravity of the action upon the other person's family and friends). Joking around with a training knife seems sick to me.

        I think it should be necessary in teaching the knife to step in when students do that and tell the people- "you are dead, you just bled out. you will never see your family again, you will never hold your child, everything is over for you." and conversely, "you just took another human being's life away. (reiterate the consequences) You will have to live every day with the consequences of this decision, especially if you end up going to prison for it." Make sure to elaborate that these things, these constructs such as death, killing, prison, and forever have little meaning until they are felt first hand.

        .....?
        Not many people have a realistic understanding of the kind of trauma that can be inflicted with a blade. It is VERY important to understand the irreversible moral and ethical (and legal) consequinces of using any deadly weapon.

        Not only that but the sanguinary mess that goes so often without saying.

        Blood pressure will have a new and graphic meaning if you ever slice a living "target"...

        Makes me nauseated just thinking about it.

        We live in a sick world but I'd rather have blood on my hands than be caught unarmed in a moment of need.

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        • #5
          Wow. Really great responses. I have to say I'm impressed by the depth of your comments Garland- Well done!

          I myself do not carry a knife. I don't think my skill level warrants it, and I don't want to take the risk that I provide my attacker with a weapon. My Step-dad trains the police though, and he keeps saying that he wants to put me through firearms training and get me a permit. I'm not sure what I think of that. So far I haven't, but he insists I take the training even if I never own a firearm. I think I would be ok with that.

          I think I agree with Garland's first post. You need to know yourself, and know where you need to draw the line for the sake of living with yourself.

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          • #6
            A-a-a-a-a-a-and Dead thread!

            Lol.

            OK, so here's another question: referring to my comment about not wanting to provide my attacker with a weapon- and seeing as we're on the women's forum- do you think women are actually safer carrying a weapon, or not? Is the possibility that they will be out massed and disarmed sufficient to make having a weapon a bad idea? To get a perspective on this for the guys: think of fighting multiple people who are ALL at least 2 weight classes above you.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Little Apple View Post
              think of fighting multiple people who are ALL at least 2 weight classes above you.
              You're fcked.

              I try not to bullshit people, especially about self-protection. When people come to me and present a scenario like that, I tell them straight. Outnumbered, outweighed and outgunned is a no-win scenario. People who say otherwise will be teaching you using rare and extreme examples, and that is misleading people. Unless you are exceptional, don't listen to exceptional circumstances.

              The question I usually ask is, what is it you are doing in your life that leads you to believe this is a situaton you will encounter? 99.99% of people will never experience this situation. The remaining 0.01% will do so because of:

              - The job they do, therefore they will be trained and probably well armed
              - They make very bad lifestyle choices, so you reap what you sow
              - They are incredibly unfortunate

              Thoughts about the latter just breed paranoia, like should I walk round carrying a weapon? If you were ever really that unlucky, then yeah having a weapon is better than no weapon. The question is, do you want to carry a weapon every day of your life just in case you walk round the corner to meet your doom at the hands of 5 thugs? I don't train in speedo trunks every day, just in case I get jumped at the pool. I just don't have the package to pull that off.....if you'll pardon the expression

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Little Apple View Post
                A-a-a-a-a-a-and Dead thread!

                Lol.

                OK, so here's another question: referring to my comment about not wanting to provide my attacker with a weapon- and seeing as we're on the women's forum- do you think women are actually safer carrying a weapon, or not? Is the possibility that they will be out massed and disarmed sufficient to make having a weapon a bad idea? To get a perspective on this for the guys: think of fighting multiple people who are ALL at least 2 weight classes above you.

                I say yes, women are safer armed than not.

                Is it a bad idea? Not at all. What's the other choice? Should she comply with the felonious intent of her attackers? Lie down and ask them to rape her gently???

                I say give her a knife. If she can inflict serious trauma on ONE of them it might be easier to convince the others to take their buddy to the ER.

                I'm sure I've said it before but most BAD guys want an easy victim, not a FIGHT. The presence of a weapon can tilt the balance of power in many situations.

                Is there a chance she'll be disarmed... Sure. (that's why many cops and folks who are serious about self protection carry a back up weapon)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Michael Wright View Post
                  You're fcked.

                  I try not to bullshit people, especially about self-protection. When people come to me and present a scenario like that, I tell them straight. Outnumbered, outweighed and outgunned is a no-win scenario. People who say otherwise will be teaching you using rare and extreme examples, and that is misleading people. Unless you are exceptional, don't listen to exceptional circumstances.

                  The question I usually ask is, what is it you are doing in your life that leads you to believe this is a situaton you will encounter? 99.99% of people will never experience this situation. The remaining 0.01% will do so because of:

                  - The job they do, therefore they will be trained and probably well armed
                  - They make very bad lifestyle choices, so you reap what you sow
                  - They are incredibly unfortunate

                  Thoughts about the latter just breed paranoia, like should I walk round carrying a weapon? If you were ever really that unlucky, then yeah having a weapon is better than no weapon. The question is, do you want to carry a weapon every day of your life just in case you walk round the corner to meet your doom at the hands of 5 thugs? I don't train in speedo trunks every day, just in case I get jumped at the pool. I just don't have the package to pull that off.....if you'll pardon the expression
                  Its not no win, I know plenty of people who have faught and bet multiple opponents. Whats wrong with carrying a weapon every day anyway? All the stuff about lifestyles and will you ever face that theat, you just say the same things all the time.

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                  • #10
                    Shut up you crazy fool!

                    (Sorry, couldn't resist)

                    Although not intended as one I will take your last point as a compliment, I do say the same things all the time, because I hold a consistent point of view. Good Self Protection is first and foremost about lifestyle choices and reaching a position of confidence and security. Bad Self-Protection is breeding paranoia and infecting people's minds with unrealistic expectations.

                    There, I did it again.

                    The scenario presented to me by Little Apple was multiple opponents all bigger and heavier than you, in my experience I class that as no-win. You say you know people who have succeeded, thats cool. I suspect they or the situation was exceptional, or you are talking about some Doormen buddies who have thrown a few people out of a bar.

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                    • #11
                      if you are taking about 5 or 6 guys then OK, you don't stand a chance. I'm talking about guys who have faught 2 people, thats multiple opponents, and they used a weapon to their advantage. One guy I know used a blade on two people in a bar and came out without a scratch on him.

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                      • #12
                        So the guy you know, was in a bar where he felt the need to carry a blade, and sure enough he was attacked by two people.........can you see where I'm going with this?

                        Look to bring this all back to Little Apple's question. If you are a woman who is minding her own business and really happens to be that unlucky to face 5 big guys then yes of course, grab the meanest fcking weapon you can find and do whatever it takes to come out alive. My point was twofold:

                        - If you are smart and lead a normal life it is incredibly unlikely you will ever face that scenario
                        - If you do for whatever reason, then weapon or no weapon I think it is equally unlikely you will prevail

                        You can call that cynical, from experience I believe its just reality.

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                        • #13
                          I think that if you carry a weapon you are pretty much opening yourself up to your opponents and giving them the opportunity to use it against you! Unless you are seriously sh*t hot at using a weapon then you have immediately introduced a lethal object into a situation which the opponents facing you may not have even thought of, and you just handed it to them on the plate. In this situation your heart will be going nuts, you will be dealing with all kinds of emotions and feelings and if you seriously believe you can pull this off then I want to train with you!

                          As a woman I carry a metal kubitan and I do have more lethal weapons in my car (!?! – there is a logic there I promise), I have spent a long time learning how to use my kubitan because although I known this can be used against me, but here’s another woman’s logic, I view the kubitan as less lethal than a knife, all I want to be able to do is hurt the opponents enough to leg it, not kill them and a knife immediately puts that situation on the table. My view is you carry a knife you have the intension of using it and knife fights can go very very wrong, very very quickly! and you could end up killing someone instead of just hurting them.

                          Introduce any weapon into an already emotionally charged situation you will always run the risk of it being used against you.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Good responses! To clarify my example: When I told guys to picture fighting multiple opponents who were all at least 2 weight classes above them, I was trying to drive home the reality of the size ratio that a woman would face. You guys are bigger than us.

                            I very much agree with you all that the first step to staying safe is to not put yourself in dangerous situations.

                            I also personally think that if you are trained in a weapon, and willing to use it, you are better off having it if you are out numbered. Like I said: one of the big reasons I don't carry a knife is that I don't think my skill (or lack thereof) warrants it.

                            So what are your opinions on Mace? The spray of course, not the spiky club. I personally don't see any moral reasons not to use it. But I'm not sure it has much fear power, and I feel like people would be more willing to try overpowering a woman with Mace than a woman with with a knife or something.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              i always carry a knife on me, if not two. just in case, i mean you never know right?

                              a friend of mine asked me why i carry a knife, i told him for self defense. i the asked him why he didnt carry one. and he told me that he gets emotional and stupid during confrontations, and that he knew that if he were to carry one there would be a chance of him using it on someone over something stupid, so he he refrained from carrying any kind of weapon. this guy doesnt train.

                              i asked another friend of mine why he doesnt carry anythig for self defense. he told me that he had had a gun a pulled on him 3 times in his youth, each time it was someone taking his money. he told me that each time, he made it home safe because he did not fight back and complied with the robber, and that he feels carrying a weapon or trying to use one may just end up getting him killed instead. he has no training but has been in a number of serious fights and bad situations.

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