Medival Knight VS Japanese Samauri (sp)

[jubaji]

LOL My great great grandad was a Portuguese pirate. The only real secret is where he hid all the booty...

*officially not making a disrespectful comment about your great great grandmother*

[Tant01]

*officially not making a disrespectful comment about your great great grandmother*

...

[Hardball]

Mullins,
It wasn't from the internet. It was from one of those old fashioned things...rectangular paper objects called books. And the information was my own interpretation, not a word for word copy. I prefer to write from my own collective understanding of a source rather than quoting from pieces. That way, it kinda helps me make sure I actually understand it.

Thanks for taking the time and energy to contribute to this thread. I found the above synopsis very very very interesting.

[Hardball]

If gunpowder was invented in China, then the Japanese should have seen it evolve and refine into usable battlefield technologies far sooner that Europeans did - but it didn't work out that way. Japan was a far stronger country in the 1100's -1400's than virtually anyone in Europe, but with the Crusades and the information trade Europe went through, they simply jumped on the developmental train and advanced their warmaking abilities and technologies.

This paragraph here makes me think of Naval Warfare during this particular time period. Is there anything in the time life book about samauri or knights using naval warfare? I've heard the myth of a great hurricane saving the Japanese navy during the Heian period. Any info would be greatly appreciated. After all the differenent styles of kung fu (northern vs southern) was said to have evolved according to terain. For example, some battles were fought on boats hence the style of kung that emphasizes hand techniques.

[RYO9]

Mike,

i personally haven't seen a book much less loked at one in over a month. i am against reading personally, i like to hear it from the horses mouth or have it taught to me by someone. and i believe this may be why i get stories mixed up. however, i do agree with you, it is really useful to rewrite it and hear it in your own words if you're trying to learn something. it has helped me in my studies, and because of that and a great memory i haven't studied for a test in oh 5 years anyhow. that's not bs.

Tant, you know the real reason the samurai didn't get the better technology. they were too damn busy kicking everyone's ass that challenged them to notice the developement of guns and such. plus their swords were so well crafted they didn't need lighter steel.

Mullins

[IPON]

. i am against reading personally

OK and yet you post to a message board

Out of curiosity where to you think the people that are teaching you get their information from ??? Just something to think about

[jubaji]

You simply didn't see fortesses evolve at the pace of their European counterparts.

This doesn't make sense. European fortresses changed in response to firearms, which makes it essentially the same argument.

Japanese fortresses were highly effective and technically superb. Heck, the base of Hiroshima castle survived the Atomic Bomb!

What's more, when European castles changed in response to firepower, they came to resemble in many ways the castles already long in use in Japan.

[47MartialMan]

Very interesting comparison. Does'nt sound like there was a signifcant difference between the Japanese Samauri and the Medival Knight.

Summarizing; The Knight was more into the honor and monetary reward of swordskills. The knight had his own form of unarmed martial art, though not much is known about it.
Yes, their rewards were granted by royalty stolen from the commoners/peasants. Their unarmed arts werent viewwed as a "separate style" like Asian counterparts. It was merely a collection of techniques from the test of "trial-and error".

The Samauri fought for survival and honor and when he lost, broke or dropped his sword he resorted to unarmed techniques such as breaks, locks, kicks, punches and throws.
When the Samurai lost, hari keri/seppaku was the option. From weaponless techniques, the same as the Europeans- collection of techniques from the test of "trial-and error".

Anybody feel free to jump in and correct, add, delete any remarks made in this summary.

The thing to understand, is not to compare, likewise to which is better. But each developed per their ERA, and strategy in accordance to their social environment.

Simularities are not only of honor or code of chivalry-there were "dishonorable situations", "coup d'état", politics, personal indifferences, and needless warring.

[jubaji]

Japanese may not have rejected it, they certainly didn't embrace it the way Europe did. Your statement that they didn't reject it, but that it got there later is actually, in some ways, proof that it was indeed rejected. If the technologies began in their own back yards, how did they make it to Europe before Japan if they weren't rejected by the Japanese?

Your grip on logic is tenuous at best. The "technology" developed in the west. It was not called "gunpowder" until the "gun" was invented. That technology migrated and eventually affected the cultures that encountered it (as technology always does). The difference is primarily one of time.

[47MartialMan]

Your grip on logic is tenuous at best. The "technology" developed in the west. It was not called "gunpowder" until the "gun" was invented. That technology migrated and eventually affected the cultures that encountered it (as technology always does). The difference is primarily one of time.

true.

Though the Japanese/Asians, had developed a "art form" of the usage of the firearm.

[RYO9]

gimme a break mike it's been like 3 weeks that i've been outta school. and for most of that time i was wrking produce at my families grocery store, and you don't need much smarts to wrap/bag vegetables and price em.

IPON, all of my instructors have made the pilgramage to be taught by Guro Dan Inosanto. and while they all do use books to further their knolege of the martial arts, they would rather have it shown to them by an instructor.

and just for the record "gunpowder" was invented in china, it was perfect in the west by a frankish monk. and if you guys think that piece of history is wrong you can blame Discovery channel for relaying false information on a much larger scale.

Mullins

[Tant01]

Tant, you know the real reason the samurai didn't get the better technology. they were too damn busy kicking everyone's ass that challenged them to notice the developement of guns and such. plus their swords were so well crafted they didn't need lighter steel.

Mullins

I would think that status alone was a good enough reason for a Samurai to kill a lower class for the slightest perceived lack of respect.

Not because they were engaged in combat but because they were bored and in doubt of their future as a warrior class.


Fail to bow low enough, off with your head...

[47MartialMan]

and just for the record "gunpowder" was invented in china, it was perfect in the west by a frankish monk. and if you guys think that piece of history is wrong you can blame Discovery channel for relaying false information on a much larger scale. Mullins

Yes, gunpowder was first used in China. But it wasnt called "gunpowder".
In the Chinese language, gunpowder is called "fire medicine." Pharmacists wanted to invent a medicine for immortality. However, an explosion resulted when they heated their mixture with nitrates, sulphur, and carbon (from wood charcoal). It was invented as early as the West Han dynasty (206 B.C.).

It is believed that the Chinese were the first to invent gunpowder a thousand years ago, and they used it for fireworks. The Arabs were the first to use gunpowder for guns that they made from bamboo.

[RYO9]

finally i was right about something!

Mullins

[Britt]

Two books I would recommend on the samurai off of the top of my head: "Giving Up the Gun: Japan's Reversion to the Sword, 1543-1879" by Noel Perrin, and "Autumn Lightning : The Education of an American Samurai" by Dave Lowry. Lowry's book is actually a memoir of his early education in the art of kenjutsu interspersed with historical tales of the samurai and feudal Japan, but is an excellent book I'd recommend to anyone.