Religious diffrences

[Uke]

The Jews whom did not convert to Christianity became more hostile to one another at some point, creating splits similar to those that created different denominations, so your statement is not the complete truth.

Describe the differences of what the different branches of Judaism practice, Tom Yum. They still follow the Torah. From Hasidic to Orthodox to Black Israelite. They may go about things differently, but the core of their religion remains the same.

You and jubaji might share something in common; those cute slurs you used to describe him could very well induce the old foot in mouth disease, bro.

Hey, a dog's a dog. I don't know how that's relevant here, but I know you and jubaji have something in common ... bro.

Enough times to be transcribed into every major language of the world.

And enough to misconstrue the bible itself. From the lie that it was translated from Greek to the idea that Jesus was divine and not just a prophet.

...and they've saved millions of lives as well.

And what's your point? So if a child molester molests 100 kids but saves 1,000 that makes him decent or noble?

Meanwhile, American's paid for Jewish safety with their own lives during a time when Christian principles lead a united nation in support of a war.

American didn't risk a damn thing for Jewish safety in WWII. It wasn't until Hitler began invading every country around him that we took action. When Germany attacked Britain that's when gave a damn. Jews were getting persecuted before the beginning of the war and American didn't arrive until nearly 5 years later to help the effort, not necessarily the Jews.

On another note, here's a quote from Hitler:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth!, was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

[jubaji]

I know you and jubaji have something in common ... bro.

Why don't you explain what you think that is in a PM?

[Uke]

If they go about things differently, how is the core the same? If a Hasidic Jew will not allow any woman to touch him except his wife, for example, isn't that a "core" thing? I'm not being an ass, here. I just wonder how differently the approach can be before you consider it different. Isn't the decision to approach your most basic and important beliefs a different way a "core" issue? One could easily say that Catholics and, say, Southern baptists use the same Bible, and that the core beliefs of Christianity are present in both. I still think it's fair to say they are very different faiths in practice.

They all believe that Jehovah is God. They all believe that there is but one God. They all are followers of the God of Abraham.

The Bible introduces polytheism in the form of the Holy Trinity. The Bible has taken the Torah and made changes that they saw fit as noted in the Nicean Council of 787. Christians have introduced many pagan practices in the religion after separating from Judaism. Then after all the multiple translations of the bible, especially noting the King James version and the Revised version, the Christian bible lost much of its original meaning in the mix.

I think it's fair to say that more wars have been fought over religion and religious differences than any other single factor. I think it's also fair to say that religion is also one of the most unifying forces known to man. In fact, one of my co-workers and I discussed the lack of a similar unifying force in modern-day America. We were wondering what kind of ideology outside religion would be effective in bringing together a large culture/society for the good of all involved, and for the good of most on the otside as well.

I disagree.

First, what brings man together and also separates him is economics. Money more than religion controls where you must be everyday. It controls what you do everyday. To a large degree it even controls who your friends are. Anyone can feel free to disagree, but economics is the system put into place to control the masses. Much more so now than religion. You want to end that rift? Then look at my signature line. Inexhaustible power supply: That's a first step. Our dependence on oil has made us corrupt as a nation. Were we to create more wind and solar farms like my signature suggests then the world could have free power. Then we could work on ending world hunger. Then disease. Instead the bulk of our money and resources goes to military spending. Economics continue to create class warfare and that exists EVERYWHERE regardless of race, religion or sex.

Next, just to put things into perspective, when I say that more wars have been fought and people have been killed over religion I was specifically referring to Christianity. Judaism and Islam have been historically known to have conflicts IN-HOUSE, meaning that throughout history the conflicts found in those religions have been among other followers of the same faith.

Christians on the other hand have attempted to indoctrinate MILLIONS throughout history at the end of a gun barrel. They have ALWAYS used fear tactics to intimidate others to seek salvation through their methods. They robbed, raped and pillaged much of Africa, Asia, South America and North America and then sent missionaries to offer salvation from the torture that continued even after they had conquered the indigenous people. More people have died in the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Salem Witch Trials than all recorded conflicts involving Muslims or Jews religious wars.

Furthermore, even the slaves in Egypt(which was then called Kemet) where allowed to keep and practice their indigenous beliefs and language. Christianity hardly afforded no such luxury. In most cases, Christian conquerors killed educated men, and forced women and children to "choose" Christ or face a similar fate as the men. Let's not even get into the Middle Passage and the Vatican's silent blessing.

Barbaric isn't the word. Hitler killed six million Jews and said that he did so as a Christian. He felt as though he was fighting the good fight. The number estimated for the Inquisition alone was more that 5 times that.

And I can already hear those who disagree talking about how radical Islamic factions use terrorism to kill thousands. Let it be known that the Islamic conflicts DID NOT EXIST outside of those who practiced Islam before we pushed them out of Canaan and sponsored the creation of Israel in 1948. That is not to say that Muslims were never involved in war or conflicts, but it was never the case of trying to indoctrinate entire countries and continents into their own beliefs like the Christians do. And even then those extremist don't even make up 2% of all of Islam. And unlike Christians, Islam has managed to become the largest practiced religion on Earth today, with countries from the USA to Turkey to China to Malaysia to South Africa having Islam practicing regions. All without having to force anyone to worship Allah.

That isn't to say that anyone is better than anyone, but the facts are the facts and they will reflect the deeds as they were done.

Just a few differences. I thought I pretty much said this before without the detail. Oh well.

[Uke]

Why don't you explain what you think that is in a PM?

I don't have to explain a thing for you, mogwai. And for you to suggest that I should go to PM's for reasons of discretion is the FUNNIEST thing you've ever said. A coward to the end.

Run along and continue with your one-liner vagina monologues.

[jubaji]

I don't have to explain a thing for you. And for you to suggest that I should go to PM's for reasons of discretion is the FUNNIEST thing you've ever said. A coward to the end.

"coward"? What the hell does that have to do with trying to keep you from shitting all over this thread?

[jubaji]

one of the most ignorant paragraphs in the history of history

And I can already hear those who disagree talking about how radical Islamic factions use terrorism to kill thousands. Let it be known that the Islamic conflicts DID NOT EXIST outside of those who practiced Islam before we pushed them out of Canaan and sponsored the creation of Israel in 1948. That is not to say that Muslims were never involved in war or conflicts, but it was never the case of trying to indoctrinate entire countries and continents into their own beliefs like the Christians do. And even then those extremist don't even make up 2% of all of Islam. And unlike Christians, Islam has managed to become the largest practiced religion on Earth today, with countries from the USA to Turkey to China to Malaysia to South Africa having Islam practicing regions. All without having to force anyone to worship Allah.

Yeah, you still suck at history, champ. (and current events)

[Tom Yum]

They may go about things differently, but the core of their religion remains the same.

As is with Christianity.

Hey, a dog's a dog. I don't know how that's relevant here...

Quite relevant. Jubaji is something of a bulldog. They keep 'em in a cage, rattle it up now and then; when that cage swings open...watchout lol.

And enough to misconstrue the bible itself. From the lie that it was translated from Greek to the idea that Jesus was divine and not just a prophet. And what's your point? So if a child molester molests 100 kids but saves 1,000 that makes him decent or noble?

Nobility has nothing to do with the concept of being saved. If someone molests 100 kids that's clearly a huge sin and the individual needs serious correction.

American didn't risk a damn thing for Jewish safety in WWII.

That's debatable.

On another note, here's a quote from Hitler:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth!, was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

and then Hitler goes and orders the execution of Jewish people. That's very un-Christ like. Religion taken to its an absolute, extremist fascist level is never a good thing.

Did Nazi's use racial slurs and arguments supporting racial superiority?

I would assume that behavior was not well received by the Jewish people and likewise I'm sure there are no sacred instructions about using said slurs to win arguments on the internet....or are there?

[Uke]

Nonsense. Judaism and Islam are also exporters of war. And it doesn't matter if you go back and say, "Well, they weren't in the 7th Century" or not - it happens now, especially in the case of Islam. And wars between Islam and Judaism have not exactly been scarce either.

By the way, since you brought up the topic, is killing your own people in the name of God any less applicable tothe discussion than killing others?

There's more to discuss, but we should hit it point by point to keep it simple and understandable.

Maybe you didn't read it well. I never said that they don't wage war. I said that they don't wage war to indoctrinate others into their way of worship.

That's Christianity's deal.

[Uke]

Uke,
Why don't you review the exportation of Islam to Africa, Indonesia, etc. Tribal people were killed and conquered, and then exported to other areas to work and breed. Muslims stayed behind and bred with the locals in order to breed in a new Islam and expand the religious empire. The history is nearly the same as anyone else's. Don't kid yourself into thinking that this whole thing started in 1948. It didn't.

There is, after all, a reason that the Jewish Temple on the Mount is now the Dome of the Rock, and it wasn't all that peaceful.

Here's a really interesting link that shows the expansions (wars) of the world's major religions. It's a basic, basic timeline, but worth looking at. Watch how many times areas that are one color on the map turn green with forceful expansions of Islam, blue with Christianity, etc. Judaism is about the least threatening of all.

http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html

The point was that Muslims did have wars outside of fighting other Muslims, which I wrote, but the goal wasn't religious conversion as was the case with Christians.

"The initial rule of the Moors in the Iberian peninsula under this Caliphate of Cordoba is generally regarded as tolerant in its acceptance of Christians, Muslims and Jews living in the same territories, though in various periods Jews were expelled and Christians relegated to a kind of second class status."

That simply shows that the conquest was NOT about religious conversion, otherwise there wouldn't have been tolerance once the land was conquered. Jews and Christians were allowed to practice and exists. Later on many Jews and Christinas were expelled, but nothing like what happened in the Inquisition. Are you kidding me?

[Uke]

As is with Christianity.

Which of the three religions worship various saints, the father, the son, the holy ghost, and the Virgin Mary? How many incorporate pagan rituals disguised as Christian values and holidays? Both Christmas and Easter are ancient astrology, rooted in Sun worship. Christmas signifies the Winter Solstice while Easter signifies the Vernal Equinox. There are many, many more instances of pagan rituals and objects in Christianity.

Quite relevant. Jubaji is something of a bulldog. They keep 'em in a cage, rattle it up now and then; when that cage swings open...watchout lol.

He's hardly a bulldog. He a mutt ... a mongrel.

Nobility has nothing to do with the concept of being saved. If someone molests 100 kids that's clearly a huge sin and the individual needs serious correction.

Exactly. So your statement that Christianity saved a lot of people still doesn't erase the horrors that it has inflicted on billions for centuries. Rape, robbing and pillaging nearly every corner on Earth deserves more than a correction, don't you think?

[QUOTE[=Tom Yum]That's debatable.[/QUOTE]

Well, present your facts! I know that Jews were getting executed while this country did nothing. If it were about the safety of Jews we would have and not waited for Britain to be bombed.

and then Hitler goes and orders the execution of Jewish people. That's very un-Christ like. Religion taken to its an absolute, extremist fascist level is never a good thing.

Maybe he took his lesson from the Inquisition? After all they(the church) killed millions more than Hitler did.

[Uke]

Sorry. I don't like to do three posts in a row, but I looked up solar panel manufacturing after your statement about it being a solution. It definitely has it's benefits, I'll give you that. however, it is also one of the most poisonous manufacturing processes known, and the byproducts and materials used to make solar panels are just awful. It's actually one of the most pollutive, most toxic "alternative fuels" known.

Like any other alternative energy source, there are bugs to work out. I think that if we could find a way to use the big three - wind, waves, and sun - we'd have a major, major head start.

Well who is it going to hurt in the Mojave Desert? And I'm sure that that there are just as many processes that are equally as poisonous as making solar panels. We contain and deal with those byproducts for less important things. We can do the same with solar panels.

The point was economics is the true wall that separates man. It has made this a dog eat dog world(no offense, jubaji). We sacrifice so much ... time, effort, thought in the pursuit of money because we have subliminally been led to believe that money equals happiness and freedom. It does free up time from the rat race, but it isn't true freedom.

Because the politicians have been so clever into making all the people believe that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is all about money and more money, we should find inexhaustible sources for food and energy so that money wouldn't really be that necessary. Polymers could replace the use of wood.

Recycling should become the new religion. Learning to heal should be its dogmna. And helping our children to grow up without the hang ups of their parents in a clean and healthy world should be the goal.

That's a religion I can get with.

[Tom Yum]

Well who is it going to hurt in the Mojave Desert? And I'm sure that that there are just as many processes that are equally as poisonous as making solar panels. We contain and deal with those byproducts for less important things. We can do the same with solar panels.

Because the politicians have been so clever into making all the people believe that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is all about money and more money, we should find inexhaustible sources for food and energy so that money wouldn't really be that necessary. Polymers could replace the use of wood. .

Something else not mentioned up to this point would be the maintenance of said grid. If it were 100 miles wide and a panel 20 miles in breaks, how can a technician descend that thing and repair the broken panel?

Polymers could replace wood, but you still depend on small molecules to undergo polymerization reactions to get your polymers. In otherwords you need a readily available resource that can be chemically transformed into artificial wood.

And even then, the engineering, structural and accoustic properties of said synthetic wood would be different. Important to consider when you use wood outdoors, for structural purposes or even entertainment.

Recycling should become the new religion. Learning to heal should be its dogma. And helping our children to grow up without the hang ups of their parents in a clean and healthy world should be the goal.

That's a religion I can get with.

Sounds good. There's plenty of healing in most major religions.

Uke, it is a dog eat dog world, but that's not the only universal rule, right? If that thought takes up most of your brain power, where's the room for other stuff - you know, courage, love, desire, discipline?

[Tom Yum]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Tom, but doesn't the manufacture of most plastics require fossil fuels?

Absolutely.

[Tom Yum]

Which of the three religions worship various saints, the father, the son, the holy ghost, and the Virgin Mary? How many incorporate pagan rituals disguised as Christian values and holidays? Both Christmas and Easter are ancient astrology, rooted in Sun worship. Christmas signifies the Winter Solstice while Easter signifies the Vernal Equinox. There are many, many more instances of pagan rituals and objects in Christianity. .

You seem to have focused on activities rather than scripture itself. In actuality, Christmas celebrate the birth of Jesus

He's hardly a bulldog. He a mutt ... a mongrel. .

Why the concern for racial purity? Seriously.

Exactly. So your statement that Christianity saved a lot of people still doesn't erase the horrors that it has inflicted on billions for centuries. Rape, robbing and pillaging nearly every corner on Earth deserves more than a correction, don't you think? .

Arabs and Jews killed each other for centuries as well - I imagine the tactics involved raping and pillaging too. Does that make either religion horrific? No - but taken to fascist and extreme levels it can be.

Well, present your facts! I know that Jews were getting executed while this country did nothing. If it were about the safety of Jews we would have and not waited for Britain to be bombed..

On a fact finding mission as we speak. Speaking of which, the United States was very isolationist during WW2, no? Makes you wonder if we ignore some of the killings happening today what could brew...

[Uke]

Who would hurt in ANWAR if we drilled for oil there? You're talking about putting 100 square miles (that's about three times the area of Manhattan) of solar panels, which contain highly toxic pollutants (it's not just the manufacturing. The panels contain major pollutants) in a relatively undisturbed, pristine natural habitat. I just don't think it would go over. Especially when you consider the relative interference posed by an oil pipeline. Wildlife are free to graze all around a pipeline. In Alaska, it happens all the time with the current pipeline. Where do they live when you put a giant solar panel over their habitat? What are the potential environmental effects to humans elsewhere? You can't just slap 100 square miles of anything up and expect it not to have an effect. Besides, has anyone done a cost analysis on what it would take to build 100 square miles of solar panels and wire it into existing grids? It's very possible that existing infrastructure is far cheaper than switching. Then there are the potential economic impacts for American workers in other industries. Have we built up enough of an export market to balance out the jobs we'd kill switching off coal? You said that the new religion is money, right? That's got to figure into any realistic thinking.

Your idealstic Church of Recycling is nice, but it doesn't hold water. Like most things, you're generalizing to a horrible degree. People are not, will not, and in feasible terms cannot switch off money as a means for economic support. It can't happen. The world has no functional or pragmatic alternative. Bartering doesn't work in mass economies, so you can't just say, "We'll give you what you need if you give us what we need." Not enough people have matching needs for that to work, which is why money came into widespread use in the first place. Even if it did work, someone wou,ld eventually be willing to give away more beads for oil than another guy, and you have the same problem.

The fact is, the world doesn't, can't, and probably shouldn't run on an "everyone just be happy with what you have" system. Such a system would likely derail the entire process of evolution itself (which is based on competition). Besides, it exists nowhere else in nature. No species, no form of life whatsoever exists in perfect balance. They all compete, internally and externally, for what they need. They all kill something or other to get it. Maybe a neat theory would be to figure out how to acquire enough power to make positive changes in the world, be strong enough to stand on what's right, and moral enough to wield the power we have for the right reasons. Add to that enough realism and pragmatism to make things work with the way things are instead of the way we would like them to be, and I'd say you have the building blocks for a winning system.

Now, you completely dodged the religion question. What's the practical difference between killing hundreds of thousands, taking slaves, interbreeding with natives in order to replace their culture with your own, and fighting wars of religious fervor when it's Muslims and when it's Christians? Is it really just a matter of body counts?

And how does any of that define the religious practices of peaceful, good, moral, loving people everywhere?

First, nothing is impossible. For you to say that we can't have a system where its not based on monetary needs is to say that its impossible. Its both possible and practical if all needs are met.

Who would care if someone gave more beads for oil if we didn't need beads or oil? Why do you think I wrote about inexhaustible free power sources? Why do you think I wrote about ending world hunger? Why repair GLOBAL healthcare?

If everyone has electricity, heat, AC, food and is healthy, what the hell is there to compete for? Only land. And even then we can figure that out once we solve those other problems. Time and resources will be freed up for R&D for even better power sources, cures for diseases and improving our environment.

Even if that isn't a Utopia, its a hell of a lot better than the society that you're suggesting we need to live in. And who cares whether there are other examples in nature of what I discuss? We are the dominant life-form on this planet. Show me another example of a monetary system in nature. Show me another example of animals that have sex for pleasure.

You write that competition leads to evolution but we haven't evolved. Yet our race has competed for the duration of recorded history and before. Our pseudo-evolution has taken place externally, when its supposed to take place internally. What I suggested creates time and opportunity to let minds that would usually toil in factories and other menial jobs receive an education so that we can nurture potential genius minds. It also provides a clean and natural environment for us to evolve. Not a polluted and disease ridden society that your competition based ideology has provided.

Its people who think that way who are still trying to argue that Global Warming is a myth, and that gas emissions cause no real harm.

I didn't dodge your religious question. The difference is that they had already conquered many lands. And if you look at history, the Muslims had tolerance for Jews and Christians. I provided the excerpt. Later on, as in fighting began among the Muslim ranks, Jews and Christians were driven away, but the fact that they allowed Christians and Jews to exist from the beginning shows that it was the objective.

Explain if they came with intentions to indoctrinate Europeans, why are there no regions in western Europe that are primarily Muslim? They weren't forced to change.

And I think it should be mentioned that while slavery existed there and in most places, it was practiced VERY differently. Even some parts of Europe had slaves and if they had children with their slaves they often raised those children as their own. The Moors were not different in this regard.

But for the most part, some European countries and especially the United States wouldn't let slaves keep their faith. The USA wouldn't even let slaves keep their indigenous language and wouldn't allow families to stay together, leading to genetic diseases. Slavery was a common practice, but most were not as barbaric as Europe or the USA in their practice.

Slaves weren't routinely whipped. Groups weren't formed(KKK) to kill and terrorize slaves. You can pretend that the Moors came to Europe to make Europeans worship Allah but most know better. The crusades came for God Gold and Glory. The conquistadors enslaved and forced Christianity on the South American Indians. They didn't take the bastard children as their own either.

I'm not trying to say that ANY group is not without their misdeeds. I am saying that Christianity's past is almost nothing but horrible deeds. One horrible act after another.

Hitler is but one shining example. And as horribly as he's depicted in history, how is he any different that the Church who conducted the Inquisition? The church has killed more Jews than Hitler did. However the Jews realize that the Church is a much more powerful opponent than Hitler ever was, so its safe to demonize him.