Religious diffrences

[jubaji]

And we haven't even gotten to the Taliban yet...

[jubaji]

hmmmmmm

I know, I know... Islam means peace...

...........or does it mean 'submission'?..............

[DickHardman]

actually the talibans origin is pretty interesting. after the russians pulled their forces out of afghanistan, there was a power vaccum that was filled by war lords, criminals, drug smugglers, and gangs. the place was lawless as ****. people were getting robbed, raped, and killed all day long.

the talibans leader, mullah omar was veteran of the afghan-soviet war. he was just a guy sitting in his house, reading his quran, when he heard that a local warlord was holding two women captive and raping them. i guess that was the straw that broke the camels back for him, it was that incident that caused him to grab a rifle and take action. him and some other students led an assault on the war lord and freed the two females and hung the warlord from the end of a tank barrel.

they went on from there, punishing criminals, recruiting new members, and trying to restore some kind of order to afghanistan. however, once the gained enough power to impose their will on people, they imposed a very extremist ideology on their people that repressed them badly.

the taliban was formed by a heroic act with a noble cause, but sadly somewhere along the way they just got more and more extreme until they were openly embracing wanted terrorists. its crazy. how do you go from one end of the spectrum to the other like that?

[Uke]

Islam didn't indoctrinate? Horseshit. Pure, runny horseshit. Not only has it, it still does! You're not much of a history student, are you?

Every religion indoctrinates. If a religion says that unbelievers must be taxed, and if they do not pay a tax because of their different faith, then they can be killed - that is coercion. When a religion "allows" other faiths to live among them but does not allow the building of any non-Islamic churches, and razes the ones that already exist only to replace them with mosques - that is coercion. When a Muslim comes forth and says, "I have decided that I am a Christian" and they kill him for it? That, under any name, is indoctrination. It tells everyone else in the whole, entire country that you will be a muslim, or you'll die for refusing.

We've discussed that already. I've stated that later on that the Moors had infighting that led to them forcing non-Islamic groups out. I've also stated that Christians and Jews being treated as second class citizens.

What you are leaving out, and you often do that to make your points, is that the goal of the war was NOT to indoctrinate like in the case of Christians. We've already established that there was bloodshed. We've already established that children from the conquered were often raised in Islam as the conquerors weren't barbaric like European conquerors that often raped and then abandoned their own children.

Every people from every religion have fought over land at some point. Land was the most common reason for war before Christianity came along. Christianity's initial goals were to force its beliefs on the masses. Even in recorded history it is understood that Europeans made the name "Moors" synonymous with "Muslim", which isn't the same. But it sure did serve their cause to try and make what the Moors did seem like it was over religion.

And your argument about coercion is stupid. They(Jews and Christians) had a choice. They could have left and relocated. They could practice in private. They could have stayed and still practiced, but been treated like second class citizens. Christianity gave no such choices. They killed people if they didn't submit to Christianity or don't you know a thing about the Inquisition?

When Iran decides to kill people for converting to Christianity, it's evil, it's wrong, and no - it isn't the fault of zionism.

How is that the fault of Zionism? Iran is an extremist state that imposes control in ANY WAY IT can, religious or otherwise. I truly believe that even if Iran were to tolerate Christianity it would persecute people for other reasons just like pol pot, but more about why Iran hates Christians and Jews later.

What you DON'T see is Iran spreading Islam outside its borders at the end of barrels. You don't see it threatening to blow nukes unless people convert.

When Iran supports terrorists who hunt and kill Jews in places like Argentina, it's wrong.

You have NO idea who lives in Iran. Do you think that all the Palestinians that were forcefully removed from Canaan stayed on the outskirts? Some had family in other countries. So some relocated. If they harbor a grudge against the New Manifest Destiny then so be it.

In fact, some might say that...brace yourself...the persecution of Christians in one's own country - killing of converts, for example - and the prosecution of wars designed to wipe out entire races of people? That could be akin to, say, a Crusade, or even a Salem Witch Trial. If an Islamic Republic and self-proclaimed pillar of Islam (that's how Iran describes itself, by the way) goes out into the world after every race and religion it sees as different, then I'd say you don't have to look very far to see your crusade. What was spent on the Crusades? What does Iran spend exporting its brand of Islam around the world? I suppose the fact that Iran also puts Saudi in its sights is a direct result of Zionism as well? The targeting of sunnis in Iraq and elsewhere? That's because of the Jews?

I know that this is beyond you, but you do realize that the ENTIRE Muslim world was outraged when the Holy Land was taken from Islam, right? You do realize that as terrible as what the Jews went through that it didn't give them the right to steal that land, right? You do realize that since 1948, the conflict in that region has been nonstop, right? You do realize that Israel is a Christian sponsored state, only existing through the efforts of the Allies from WWII, right? The Jews didn't even fight for that land! The ALLIES did and the Jews were placed there in Canaan without getting their hands dirty. You know that right? And worst of all, the Israeli army has been given technology and weapons to fight people who at the time had no army. They had no real weapon cache. You've seen the footage of them throwing rocks at tanks, right?

Your example of Iran is like your example of Al Qaeda. The Muslim world speaks out against extremist ALL the time, although I doubt that those are the kinds of messages you would choose to highlight. The fact that scholars of Islam would stand up and voice their disapproval of the way militant extremist twist the teachings of Islam, despite the fact that many of them are killed for doing so, shows that true Islam speaks up for what is right and just even in the face of death.

Christianity has no such nobility. Christianity allowed not only slavery, but the inhumane practices that came along with the Middle Passage. In fact, Christianity is so barbaric that when slavery was finally abolished, Christians soldiers formed another christian fraternal order called the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, and killed freed slaves, terrorized their families and destroyed their property. This was supported BY LAW in the United States, which is one nation under God by the way, when they created Jim Crow laws so that the atrocities of the Middle Passage could continue 100 years after slavery was abolished.

That's up until 1964, Sifu.

Now that its come up, let's look at Iran:

Iran was invaded by the British and Russia, basically Christians and Jews. They seized Iran's oil and claimed it was so they(Iran) couldn't join with known enemies. Sound familiar? Oh yeah, it later became known as "British Petroleum". Then, on top of all that the CIA hired Iranians to stage false protests and fight supporters of the then Prime Minister, which led to riots and murder.

Wasn't that enough for Iran to want to separate from Christians and Jews? It was only then that Iran transformed into an Islamic Republic. Maybe according to you the Iranians should have turned the other cheek, but I'm sure they learned a lesson from others like the slaves and the Indians. So, they did not want ANY further influence from Christians and Jews. Makes sense.

Now here's the real question:

I know what Jews and Christians have done to Iranians. I know what Jews and Christians have done to Palestinians. I know what Jews did to Germans that led Hitler to declare war on them.

What did slaves or Indians do to Christians to deserve hundreds of years of torture and damn near genocide?

What did Muslims do to Christians for Christians to even be in that region now? Christians have invaded Iraq and are now looking to invade Iran for the second time in the the last 66 years. What are Christians doing there?

Christians have tried to link Muslim leadership in Iraq to Al Qaeda which has been shown to be a lie. Yet we are still there! Christians have accused Muslim leaders of having WMD's, which has been shown to be a lie. Yet we are still there!

History repeats itself: "In 1953, President Eisenhower authorized Operation Ajax, and the CIA took the lead in overthrowing Mossadegh and supporting a U.S.-friendly monarch; and for which the U.S. Government apologized in 2000."

So don't talk about why the Muslim world hates us. I am not Muslim. I was raised a Christian. I have studied Judaism and attended synagogue. I have friends who have lived and return to Israel every year. This isn't about prejudice and you and mogwai need to believe.

Some men can just acknowledge the truth and still be men about it. You should try that sometime.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Hey Mike, I'm an Atheist but denounce terrorism for any reason, do you embrace me too?

[GonzoStyles]

We've discussed that already. I've stated that later on that the Moors had infighting that led to them forcing non-Islamic groups out. I've also stated that Christians and Jews being treated as second class citizens.

What you are leaving out, and you often do that to make your points, is that the goal of the war was NOT to indoctrinate like in the case of Christians. We've already established that there was bloodshed. We've already established that children from the conquered were often raised in Islam as the conquerors weren't barbaric like European conquerors that often raped and then abandoned their own children.

and what your leaving out is that initially Islam was an Arabic religion and Malawi (non-Arab Muslims) were discriminated against which lead to more infighting in the Moslem world. Use some real impartiality when you try to study history Uke it will help you not come off like a Zealot.

And your argument about coercion is stupid. They(Jews and Christians) had a choice. They could have left and relocated. They could practice in private. They could have stayed and still practiced, but been treated like second class citizens. Christianity gave no such choices. They killed people if they didn't submit to Christianity or don't you know a thing about the Inquisition?

What about the Barbary coast pirates?

What exactly did they enslave people for Uke? You sure leave alot of gaps in your history lesson here son.

Muslims and Islam were involved heavily in the African and European slave trade.

In fact the Koran and Hadith are ambigous at best concerning slavery, they condone it while praising the act of freeing a slave, although it is not commanded by God. The same take the Torah has on slavery from my understanding.

So plenty of people were captured and "converted" to Islam, among them over 1 million Europeans kidnapped by Muslim slave traders on the Barbary coast! And who knows how many Africans and Asians and others were taken in the same manner?

[Tom Yum]

Damn right. Group Hug!!

Throw in a few chesty gals and we'll call it a deal! jk

[jubaji]

The question is, would the ugly friends take you?

[Ahsen]

P.S.
Hey, genius. The Pope speaks for Catholicism, not Christianity as a whole. People have spoken out against plenty of Popes. People like Martin Luther (Lutherans) found papal practices to be reprehensible, and spilt away from the entire Catholic faith as a result.

Why do you seem to educate yourself about every protestor in Judaism and Islam, but you skip over something as pivotal as the Reformation when it comes to Christianity?

yeah Mike do you see a everyday "Moderate" as you called it Muslim denouncing the pope in the western country and not get hounded or ignored and cheered ?

[jubaji]

??????????????????????

[Tom Yum]

The question is, would the ugly friends take you?

I'd hand the ugly friends sake bombers. They'd tag team him.

[Ahsen]

I don't see them burning down newspapers or kidnapping priests and nuns over comic strips...

True they don't
and they'll never do .

[Uke]

The Christian Taliban

WASHINGTON, Sep 7 (IPS) - Last month, the Pentagon pulled the plug on a plan to dispatch so-called "freedom packages" to U.S. troops in Iraq that included Bibles, proselytising materials in English and Arabic, and an apocalyptic computer game in which "soldiers for Christ" battle satanic "Global Community Peacekeepers".

The scheme was derailed in part because of the efforts of Mikey Weinstein, founder and president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, which seeks to protect the wall separating church and state in the United States armed forces.

Weinstein, in his own words, is no "bleeding-heart liberal". He is a 1977 honour graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, and spent 10 years in the Air Force as a "JAG" or military attorney serving as both a federal prosecutor and criminal defence attorney.

A registered Republican, he also spent over three years in the Ronald Reagan administration as legal counsel in the White House, where he helped investigate the Iran-Contra scandal.

St. Martins Press in New York recently released Weinstein's new book, "With God On Our Side," an expose on the systemic problem of religious intolerance throughout the United States armed forces.

Eli Clifton recently spoke with Weinstein about Operation Straight Up, which designed the "freedom packages", and the Pentagon's growing coziness with fundamentalist evangelical religious groups.

IPS: What is it about the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs that has made it a breeding ground for Christian Dominionists?

MW: Well, first we thought it was that there was this nexus of what I refer to as the "Protestant Vatican" -- in fact many people refer to it as that. Colorado Springs has over 100 of this nation's largest evangelical fundamentalist Christian organisations centred right there for some reason. Just like a moth to a flame these organisations have been attracted there. That was our initial theory before we found out that this imperious contagion of constitutional triumphalism, this fanatical Dominionist Christianity had swept like a tsunami all the way through all 737 US military installations that the Pentagon admits that we have -- but it's really closer to a thousand -- in 132 countries around the world. Seventy of those are in Europe and 11 of those house nuclear weapons.

Let me make this clear. I'm doing this Q&A with you guys today as a man at war with the gun smoke in my face. We are not at war with Christianity or evangelical Christianity. We have many evangelical or non-evangelical Christians who massively support what our organisation, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is doing. We are at war with a small subset of evangelical Christianity [known as] "Dominionist Christianity" and it represents about 12.6 percent of the American public or about 38 million people.

And at every one of those 737 US military installations that are scattered in 132 countries around the world -- as we garrison the globe -- we have one or more of those organisations. They're called the "Officers Christian Fellowship" for the officers and "The Christian Military Fellowship" for the enlisted folks and these organisations have a tripartite, or three level goal, which they view as much more important than the oath that they all swear to protect and preserve, support and defend the constitution of the United States.

The first goal -- and they're unabashed about it, it's right on their website -- is they want to see a "spiritually transformed U.S. military..."

Second, "...with ambassadors for Christ in uniform..." which, parenthetically, hasn't worked out too well for the world for the past 2,000 years.

And then thirdly, "...empowered by the Holy Spirit."

IPS: Could you talk a bit about Operation Straight Up and the Christian Ministry? How do they gain access to soldiers in Iraq or film promotional videos in the halls of the Pentagon?

MW: Well we hope to have the full answers to these questions shortly as we are nearing the filing of our massive lawsuit against the Pentagon for these very reasons.

The Christian Embassy was a little known, under the radar, extreme right-wing fundamentalist organisation that was operating in Washington DC and ministering, if you will, only to the glitterati and cognoscenti -- that is to say the senior people at the State Department, members of Congress, and political appointees, specifically in the Pentagon.

If you go MilitaryReligiousFreedom.org you'll see their slick, 11-minute video. It opens up with the Christian Embassy stating that there are 25,000 men and women in the corridors and rings of the Pentagon and through the use of daily prayer breakfast and bible studies and outreach events the Christian Embassy is "mustering all of them into an intentional relationship with Jesus Christ." It's really astonishing to see. To see senior members of the U.S. military and political appointees prostituting themselves with regard to the oath they took to the constitution and supporting the biblical worldview of just this one particular group.

IPS: What steps has the Defence Department taken to limit proselytising within the ranks? Where has the DoD fallen short?

MW: They are encouraging this. They aren't stopping it. The report that the DoD IG (Inspector General) came out with was ludicrous. It immediately exempted itself from something called DoD directive 1300.17 which is entitled "Accommodation of Religious Practices within the Military Services". They say that anyone who appeared in that video was not really trying to proselytise or express their religious views. They say that the directive is just dictating when you may or may not wear your uniform.

This is a complete lie. If you look at that video again you'll see that if the people at the Pentagon had been doing a video like that for the Ford Mustang there'd be no doubt in your mind that these people were pushing Ford Mustangs as the best cars around. So the IG report is terrible. It doesn't provide any remedial action.

Let me make it clear. We are dealing with a Christian Taliban. They hate when I say that but that's too bad. If you look at Chris Hedges Book "American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America" you'll see that the Christian Right is a fascistic organisation. And remember, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal -- not that there's anything wrong with that. I know the Christian Right would love it if I were a tree-hugging, Chardonnay-sipping, Northern California Democrat. I'm not. I come from a conservative military family. My youngest son just graduated three months ago from the Air Force Academy. He's the sixth member of my family to go there including myself. We have three consecutive generations of military academy graduates and over 128 years of combined active duty military service in my immediate family. I spent three and half years in the West Wing of the Reagan White House as one of his lawyers. I've been Ross Perot's general counsel. I didn't want to have to get into this fight. But when I say the Christian Taliban I frickin mean the Christian Taliban.

IPS: What consequences do whistleblowers within the armed forces face?

MW: They're terrified. Look, in many aspects the military controls their lives. We are closing in on having our 6,000th active member of the U.S. military contact us not as claimants but as tormentees. And the amazing thing is that it stays remarkably constant that roughly 96 percent of these tormentees coming to us are Christian themselves.

Roughly three-fourths of that group are going to be traditional Protestant -- that is to say Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists and Episcopalians. We even get Assemblies of God, Church of Christ, Baptists and sometimes Southern Baptists. The other one-fourth of that 96 percent are generally Roman Catholic. And that leaves four percent who are Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Confucian, Shinto, Jain, Wickan and atheists and agnostics.

Basically what we're facing are Fundamentalist, Dominionist Christians that are preying --- P-R-A-Y and P-R-E-Y -- on non-Fundamentalist Christians including in many respects other evangelical Christians that are just not fundamentalist Christians, telling them that, "you may think you were Christian enough for us but you're not. And as a result, you will burn eternally in the fires of Hell along with the Jews."

And that's why I've got to be here to take the calls around the clock from our troops. Many times they will not give me their name, sometimes they will. Often times they will give me the contact information for their supervisors or their commanders and what unit they're in. Then my job is I go call these people and make it clear that this is happening and suggest they make it stop or make them the next star on CNN.

[Uke]

Christians supported slavery?

Not my church: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Methodist

Can you say "underground railroad?"

No, not every single human being supported slavery. Just enough of them to have it last for 400 years. I am fully aware of abolitionists, but are most of the forum members aware that slavery wasn't ended for ANY moral reasons, but because of economics?

The North couldn't compete with the South because the South had no overhead. Even in its age of industrial revolution, the North could not compete with free labor. The institution of slavery was an economic inconvenience and that is why it was abolished. Not because of any speeches or religious protests. If Lincoln could have united the Union and the Confederacy while maintaining slavery he would have done so. As it is, even the soldiers who fought for their freedom and who were promised 40 acres and a mule were freed but given no land and no mule. And it was at that point that the Unites States government created Jim Crow laws to further subjugate African Americans, who at that time weren't even referred to as Americans.

I can't speak for you church Arieson, but I can speak to the fact that it was the heads of many different churches that started up their own chapters of the KKK. So, while I acknowledge the abolitionist, they were so few that they made only a minor impact.

[Uke]

What about the Barbary coast pirates?

What exactly did they enslave people for Uke? You sure leave alot of gaps in your history lesson here son.

Muslims and Islam were involved heavily in the African and European slave trade.

In fact the Koran and Hadith are ambigous at best concerning slavery, they condone it while praising the act of freeing a slave, although it is not commanded by God. The same take the Torah has on slavery from my understanding.

So plenty of people were captured and "converted" to Islam, among them over 1 million Europeans kidnapped by Muslim slave traders on the Barbary coast! And who knows how many Africans and Asians and others were taken in the same manner?

Just because you jump into a debate late doesn't mean that I'm going to reiterate every point that I've made again and again in every post. I have already written that EVERYONE at some point in time have owned slaves. It wasn't the slavery that I challenged. It was the horrific manner in which the Middle Passage was allowed to be conducted.

Millions were killed. Many were tortured, including women and children. Languages, religions and customs were wiped out and forbidden. Even after the slavery was ended, the Christians created the Ku Klux Klan who's only purpose outside of freemasonry was to terrorize and murder innocent men, women and children. This is still going on in America.

Show me the gaps in my story. I want to know. What did your post illustrate that I did not already discuss, expound upon and move passed? The Barbary coast pirates? Where's the gap? If I had already stated that nearly everyone has had slaves, how is that a gap? Or is it a case of you playing double dutch and just jumping in a debate where you see fit and ignoring those previously discussed points?

If your so damn smart, why didn't you bring up the fact that Europeans have blurred the term "Moor" for "Muslim"? They made the two synonymous so that every deed done by Moors were made to seem as if they were doing it in the name of Allah and Islam. So, much of what the Moors did was written down in European history as Islamic conquests, which is bullshit. Some simple research would reveal that. Its not hard. That's what Mike Brewer uses to fuel his arguments. "The Muslims did this and the Muslims did that ..." when much of the time it was Moors who happened to be Muslim.

Its the same dumb shit he talks about with today's terrorism. A couple of nuts who happen to have been born in Islam doesn't let the few define Islam for the whole. Mike Brewer has had a long and lengthy debate with a Muslim gentleman on this forum where he even goes as far as to say that Muslim leaders haven't spoke out against Al Qaeda. BULLSHIT!!! Islamic religious leaders speak out against terrorism all the time across the world. They travel the world making speeches and conducting workshops to educate those who don't know the core of Islam.

Now, how many Christian leaders spoke out against the Inquisition? How many spoke out against the Crusades? How many spoke out against the Salem Witch Trials? How many spoke out against the Middle Passage? How many are putting their ass on the line to do what's right?

I'd suggest you all read "The Christian Taliban" and learn something about your own religion that you all probably didn't even know. Those nut jobs are based out of Colorado Springs.

Know any of 'em, Mike Brewer?