Senator Obama VS Senator Clinton

[jubaji]

Holy shit, what an idiot this 'ghost' character is! Thank goodness he doesn't have a damn thing to do with our election!

So far we have the fact that he likes his speaking style, his last name, and his skin tone as the only qualifications to be President of the United States.

Oh, and don't forget guessing (D.I. style) about relative intelligence because he really, really wants to believe... (Yes You Can get a fucking clue any time now...)

Give me a break.

"Experience? Bah, what does experience matter in the most important leadership position in the world during a time of global crisis? That's not important! After all, he talks real nice and I approve of his skin color and that's really what matters!"

Idiot.

Fucking Idiot.

[jubaji]

Award for least intelligent poster on the forum goes to you Jubaji.

Who the **** are you kidding? You are about the only one here capable of giving D.I. a run for his money at that title.

[jubaji]

2) **** you, bullshit, you piece of shit

That's racist piece of shit, you racist piece of shit. Get it right, you stupid, racist piece of shit.



Yes, number 2 suits you well (on many levels).

[Ghost]

That's racist piece of shit, you racist piece of shit. Get it right, you stupid, racist piece of shit.



Yes, number 2 suits you well (on many levels).

PMSL


You actually did it!

[Ghost]

Holy shit, what an idiot this 'ghost' character is! Thank goodness he doesn't have a damn thing to do with our election!

So far we have the fact that he likes his speaking style, his last name, and his skin tone as the only qualifications to be President of the United States.

Oh, and don't forget guessing (D.I. style) about relative intelligence because he really, really wants to believe... (Yes You Can get a fucking clue any time now...)

Give me a break.

"Experience? Bah, what does experience matter in the most important leadership position in the world during a time of global crisis? That's not important! After all, he talks real nice and I approve of his skin color and that's really what matters!"

Idiot.

Fucking Idiot.

and again lol, i already explained that it cant just be any black guy, all the other components have to be in place, and they are.

[Liberty]

Tell me you didn't fall back on this. Obama has been endorsed by both Louis Farakhan and Racist Wright, and he stands by Wright all the way. If McCain is discredited because Some third party like Bush endorsed him, then Obama is history for being endorsed by a radical racist and a black supremist.



You say potato...

I think over-hyping is exactly what it is when you say that he's the only hope we have for real change. I think it's pure over hype to say that a half-white, upper middle class raised lawyer "identifies" with the poor blacks in this country better than a man who had to live five years in a cage.



Is that how we can expect the rest of these arguments to fall? A domino stream of "Just kidding! Sorry!"



I find it offensive in the extreme that you would presume to tell me or anyone else what prejudices they have or haven't faced in their lifetime as if it were some sort of game of one-downsmanship. "I had it worse than you, so I should be President!" It's like you can't be happy with a candidate unless he's lived a shittier life than the other guy. I also find it appalling that you would make the comparison that a lifetime of living in an upper middle class home in Hawaii with a family that loves you in any way trumps being a prisoner of war in the Hanoi Hilton for "racial injustice." What "day in and day out" injustice has the law school grad, senator-slash-presidential front runner experienced exactly?



There you go. You might as well have said, "I don't care about the man. I'm judging him solely by a group label." That makes you a bigot.

McCain has parted ways with "Republican views" so many times that virtually every republican pundit out there has disowned him. Anne Coulter said she'd vote for the Devil before John McCain. But you'd rather judge him by party affiliation than by the content of his character. No wonder you've been so hung up on race. You're just a bigot of a different color.



I'd guess your disappointment is coming from believing your over-hyped caricature of Obama in the first place. "Personality is all that really counts," and now you're finding out that even that was an illusion, so you have nothing left to stand on except that you were not only wrong about McCain, but also about Obama. You couldn't match up on experience or even proven integrity in politics, so you played the only card you had left, which was personality. He failed in that one too, so you've been exposed as someone unwilling to even consider the merit of a man's ideas if he belongs to a race...excuse me, political party...you disagree with. You're judging McCain by the actions of others who've had nothing whatsoever to do with him, and you've admitted in plain language that nothing McCain has done or could do would salvage him because, well, he's Republican. Doesn't matter if he's better, doesn't matter if he's more experienced, doesn't matter if he's proven, and it doesn't even matter if his ideas are un-Republican. All that matters to you is your personal prejudice and bigotry against anyone associated with the Republican party.

Ghost? You reading this? See why we here in the States don't often give too much creedence to this kind of garbage? Very often, the same kind of bigotry comes up. In the end, it's almost never about tangible facts and rational arguments. It's just "I don't like the white guy."

Arieson, I didn't read your reply yet because I was floored that Liberty would actually come out and admit that his case has nothing whatsoever to do with who's actually a better candidate. It was becoming clear to me that he hadn't done his homework, but I didn't realize it was because he had no intention to. I didn't think he'd made his mind up purely on skin color or party affiliation or some other prejudice. I'll read what you had to say and get back to you. I promise, I'm not blowing you off.

Mike, I responded to your post. I apologized for anthything I have said that may have personally offended you. This is how you respond? So be it. My conscience is clear. I tried to acknowledge my imperfections. But as with other times on other subjects you and I have disagreed about you not only desire the last word but twisted. Have at it. Regretably...

[jubaji]

Foreign Affairs, to those not familiar with the magazine, is usually more left-leaning than right.

Did you read the article in the most recent edition about the effects of nationalism? Interesting. There was also one the month before about how students in Western Europe are being taught that capitalism is evil. That was telling, I thought.

[jubaji]

http://engram-backtalk.blogspot.com/2008/03/obamas-changing-views-on-war-in-iraq.html

[Liberty]

Your conscience may be clear, but you're still completely prejudiced. Tell me what I have twisted. YOU said you didn't care about anything McCain has done or accomplished because he's a Republican and that's all that mattered to you. Stop being a crybaby. What? You can "rib me" but turnabout isn't fair? I wasn't gunning for the last word, Liberty. In fact, I offered to let you define the debate on your own terms! I gave you every advantage anyone could give and I did it for one solid reason:

I know McCain is a stronger and better candidate in every area, so it doesn't matter which qualifications you chose.

And what's the horseshit about "acknowledging your imperfections?" You admitted to being a bigot! That's a damned site more than an "imperfection," wouldn't you say? It's a complete prejudice about the whole discussion that keeps you from even acknowledgin opposing points of view! You refused to see any merit in John McCain purely based on his party affiliation! Dude, that's not an "imperfection." That's closed mindedness to any and everything I could have said.

Once again, you're finding yourself on the losing side of a clear-cut argument so you've got to distract somehow. Insults and ribbing didn't work, so now you're going to play the role of butt-hurt martyr and slink off, eh? Big mean Mike B picked on you too much, so now you're not going to play anymore?

How about this:
Since you are all about admitting your faults, why not just come right out and say what you meant before? Why not just admit that you're completely closed minded and that you are incapable of judging John McCain based on anything except your own prejudice? Why not just admit that personal integrity, character, and qualifications don't matter to you at all, and that the only thing you see is a blue or red party color?

Come on, Lib. Discuss that. It'll be cathartic.

And by the way, don't be such a pussy. I was just ribbing you and forgot to mention it.

Mike, what part of this entire sentence group from one of my earlier posts did you not grasp:

"Honestly Mike, you could provide all the qualifications you want for McCain and I’d still not vote for him, as I simply do not care for Republican views, no matter how honest the candidate. Again, I will give your list serious thought, though. I mean, I can be wrong."

That reiterated I'm willing to bet you voted for Bush in the last two Presidential elections, the second time in spite of the mess he'd made of his first four years. Tell me I'm worng.

[Liberty]

Perhaps my confusion comes from statements like this:

You'll read them, you'll consider them, but you won't vote for a Republican because you're prejudiced.

As for my votes? Yes, I voted for Bush. Both times. What does that have to do with McCain or Obama? Am I running? Is my voting record somehow part of the discussion? Because I thought we were discussing McCain and Obama. Hang on. I'll scroll back a few pages...uh huh....yep...yep...Liberty, I gotta tell you, I couldn't find anything about me that was relevant to the discussion. Nothing at all. Nor can I find any reasonable argument that ties my vote to McCain's qualifications or record. Are you somehow insinuating that because I voted for Bush, I've invented McCain's service record? Because, honest Abe, I'm not. Perhaps you could find it in your heart to quit trying so hard to distract from the real discussion?

I mean, I know you're all backed into a corner because you got called on being prejudiced and all, and I know you're facing a difficult debate because you've shown that you haven't got anything even remotely resembling an open mind about this, but still. The sidebars and distractions really aren't furthering the discussion.

Oh, yeah. You're really "qualified" on this. You've just admitted that twice over the last 8 years you voted for someone way less qualified than his oponents; someone who evn proved that to you his first 4 years in office. If that is not a hypocrisy, than I am a Shiite, I mean a Suni. I mean, I know what, let's ask McCain. Yeah, one more old whitey with foreigner's interest at heart. Doesn't even care to find out about these people we're so supposedly out to save from themselves at the continuing cost of American and Iraqi lives. That's as ridiculous as your short stint as a minority.

Take that last comment whatever way you like - I stand by it - you can never hope to understand the day to day of minorities - not only are you so possesed by the typical North American arrogannce that foolishly believes it can understand what it continues to engage in to this very day and on a massive scale, but it is an impossibility for you to understand unless you are a minority in this mentally, spiritually segrated mess to begin with.

It is what it is. I don't hold it against you. You're a product of blah, blah, blah....I'm out of here. See you on one of the other forums, where you make some sense, at times. No hard feelings. I know, I know, I'm not getting away that easy. Rant away, my friend.

[jubaji]

And on the other hand, we start by leveling the playing field by electing Obama, who is not the anti-christ nor diety that either sides want to portray him as. Then, after we have set a precedent we can go back to even and fair competetion.

Ah, the office of President of the United States as an affirmative action position? Brilliant fucking idea, D.I.

[jubaji]

And now, a flat-out rejection of logic! Un-fucking-believable

sometimes you have to do what is right, not logical. And electing a guy like Obama will do more good then bad, in that respect.

Idiots like you are the Senator's worst enemies...

[Ghost]

Hi Mike, you post a lot and at this time i really dont have time to keep up with it but id like to, however ill throw something in anyway.
On the issue of Iraq again, Obama made the right call McCain didnt.

Thats fact and to me is 1 element of why he may be a better leader. Military experience isnt always the best for a leader of a country.

On withdrawl i personally prefer Obamas withdrawl plan. He can see the need to stay for a bit but its a withdrawl plan. I can see McCains point, i think Hillary is a nutcase to pull out in 60 days. So im not entirely against McCains view though i prefer Obamas and i wont vote for Hillary even if her other policies were correct due to her lack of understanding over Iraq.

I think the war is a large contributing factor to the economic problems faced by America now.

And that brings me on to the economy.
The other thing that scares me about McCain is that he knows nothing about the economy.
Even he admits it himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XazpaYwFKd8

Obama has more understanding and can talk about economic policy where as McCain simply gets lost and passes it off. Is McCain what America needs now as it enters a downturn period in the economy?

Those are 2 of the 3 important factors for me, the other being race. but weve covered that now i guess.

I think America is a less safe place as a consequence of Bush's actions. I think Obama has the power to change this due to his potential status in the middle east. For now,for the next 4 years it would be for the best as he can do things McCain cant simply because of his name. THats a fact and has been reported as such on CNN in a documentary examining this case in particular.

On the point of working cross-party
Obama plans to pick Republicans for cabinet
Senior advisers confirmed that Hagel, a highly decorated Vietnam war veteran and one of McCain’s closest friends in the Senate, was considered an ideal candidate for defence secretary. Some regard the outspoken Republican as a possible vice-presidential nominee although that might be regarded as a “stretch”.
Asked about his choice of cabinet last week, Obama told The Sunday Times: “Chuck Hagel is a great friend of mine and I respect him very much,” although he was wary of appearing as though he was already choosing the White House curtains. But after winning 11 primary contests in a row after Super Tuesday, he is ready to elbow Clinton off the stage.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3466823.ece

In terms of character.
Do you really want me to dig out all of McCains childish outbursts at reporters?

[Ghost]

Obama made several calls on Iraq. Against, for and back to against. To which "right call" are you referring?

The one that mattered. The one where he didnt vote in favor of going to war.

[Ghost]

Mike its ok to not agree, thats why everyone gets a vote. Doesnt make anyone a bad person, people just have different opinions. I think on this you wouldnt vote for Obama but may do one day perhaps and i wouldnt vote for McCain right now but i wouldnt be very disappointed if he got in either.
I like McCain i just prefer and can see, imo, better reasons to choose Obama.
Hillary i really have no time for. I think thats one thing we agree on lol.