Senator Obama VS Senator Clinton

[Ghost]

Judging, choosing, or treating people a certain way on the basis of their race is racism, you fucking moron.

actually it isnt, its prejudice but nevermind.

Besides people do it all the time, and for good reason.

I very comparible analogy would be a negotiation. Be it business or hostage or anything you like.
Lets say its hostage situation, you have a chinese guy born in china gone nuts in the states and hes taken a hostage.
You have 2 people to choose from, both equally skilled, one is white american, one is american born chinese.
Anyone with an ounce of sense will know the chinese person will have a better chance due to their race being the same.
Its no coincidence companies are hiring ethnic chinese these days by the bucket load to deal with companies in china.
And so on.
People choose people by race, whether you like it or not is irrelevant.

[jubaji]

actually it isnt, its prejudice but nevermind..

It is racism you fucking moron, and we don't need the unwelcome and ignorant ramblings of racist foreigners to 'help' us decide who we will choose as our next president. You want to pursue a racial agenda in choosing the next leader of whatever hell hole spawned your defective ass, that's your worry.

[jubaji]

You're absolutely right, it is racism. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

I know, and it is no way to choose a leader of a great nation.

[Tom Yum]

Its global, dont doubt that, in its effect its global, the whole world is watching.

Yes, but the whole world is not voting. American citizens are.

[QUOTE=Ghost;293313]
These areas are not your problem though, the middle east is.

Chavez is an issue and a key player in OPEC. And drug trafficking from South American countries?

China is the fastest growing industrialized nation, largest manufacturer of many types of goods and potentially the next super-power - how we play with them is going to affect our position through the rest of the century since we (and I mean the entire western world) are so intertwined with them.

McCain will be a disaster for this, he will be as bad as Putin for all the hawkish talk, Obama will be more relaxed which is just what we need. I mean who the hell blames the russians for wanting to expand thier military i would if i was them. America agreed after WW2 not to expand into eastern europe as part of the deal at the end of the war, now they are bullding a missile defense system there. Regardless of who its to protect against its on russias border and in conflict with what america agreed to, of course they are a problem, they are a problem becasue of america as per usual.

From what I've been told, Russians are even more sensitive about skin color than we are but I can't verify this. Even Russians who look slightly Asian aren't considered true Russians in their own country. This could easily play against Obama as being white could play against McCain in Africa or the Middle East - but if you recall, Africans loved Clinton and he was white.

I don't agree with any of that, but like you said race is an issue.

I think Obama has several times more interpersonal skill than McCain, hes proved that in his speeches where as McCain rambles and mumbles.

That's not a strong argument.

[Liberty]

That's an interesting notion - Obama coming from the "downtrodden" and McCain not being able to identify.

Out of curiosity, who do you think can better identify with the poor and downtrodden? Someone who was raised in an upper middle class home with opportunities to go to law school? Or someone who's lived completely stripped of everything but his honor, kept in a cage and fed barely enough rice to keep him alive for five years?

An upperclass law school graduate named Gandhi would beg to differ with you. The son of the Prime Minister of Porbandar, at the age of 18 on September 4, 1888, Gandhi went to University College London to study law and train as a barrister….Years later, during his travls as an attorney, in South Africa, Gandhi faced discrimination directed at Indians. Initially, he was thrown off a train at Pietermaritzburg, after refusing to move from the first class to a third class coach while holding a valid first class ticket. Traveling further on by stagecoach, he was beaten by a driver for refusing to travel on the foot board to make room for a European passenger. He suffered other hardships on the journey as well, including being barred from many hotels. In another of many similar events, the magistrate of a Durban court ordered him to remove his turban, which Gandhi refused. These incidents have been acknowledged as a turning point in his life, serving as an awakening to contemporary social injustice and helping to explain his subsequent social activism. It was through witnessing firsthand the racism, prejudice and injustice against Indians in South Africa that Gandhi started to question his people's status within the British Empire, and his own place in society.

[/QUOTE] I also don't see how McCain represents more of the same. He's taken drastic departures from both his own party and Washington conventionalism. The only thing that's "more of the same" is the campaign slogans from the other side. But if you're being honest about your examination, please do go back and look at the man's record. He's been anything but the model Republican, and he has been more willing than anyone else - ANYONE else - on Capitol Hill to work across party lines, giving as much as he asks for. That is not more of the same in any book. [/QUOTE]

In other words, the reason why Bush and crew have openly endorsed him is because he will go in, clean house and reverse the greed they have set in motion for themselves.

[/QUOTE] I'm not blind to the existence of racism, nor the hardships faced by minorities, Liberty. This may be hard for you to grasp, but I have actually been a minority several times in my life. Try living in a foreign country and not speaking the language. I have. Try being the white kid living on an Indian Reservation. I have. Try being homeless in a town like L.A. I have. It's not that I am blind to racism's existence - it's that I would very much like to stop perpetuating it by calling attention to skin color above ability. [/QUOTE]

There it is Mike, for all the world to see. Whitey goes out, experiences some short-term discrimination, goes back home to his white world and is now an expert on people who’s lasting, and, by North America’s standards – unforgivable skin color, language, name is their crime day in and day out no matter where they are. Reminds me of those old westerns my gramps (God love em) is so fond of. The ones which make an effort to show the Indian side of things – but with Indians played by white actors. I can’t believe you went there. Then, again, I can. Luv ya guy, but you just can’t understand this one.

[/QUOTE] I believe that every time someone makes a case for a minority to get a job based on the color of his or her skin, that person is drawing more attention to all the things we say don't matter. If all men are equal, then why can we not judge them equally? Why is it that we should all be seen as equals in a free society, unless it's time for a job, and then it's "Hey! I deserve a break because I'm a minority!" It's hypocrisy, and it's foolish. When I talk about Obama, I talk about his qualifications. I talk about the fact that he is intelligent and well spoken. I talk about the fact that I can see him being an amazing political force and leader given enough time to build his foundation. Nowhere in there will you find a racial judgment. I would rather do him the honor of considering him a man; a candidate, and not a "black man" or a "black candidate." To me, that just seems bigoted. [/QUOTE]

“We (slave owners and parents of slave children) hold these truths to be self evident (there it is in our white Anglo-Saxon Protestant reflection) – that all (who we consider) men are created equal…” It was a lie then, and continues to be one to this very day. It would be great if this were not so, but it is.

[/QUOTE] Liberty, I firmly believe you had your mind made up long before this discussion. I really do. And you should vote for whomever you want to vote for. But I am saddened by the idea that you'd vote for someone because "he can't do any worse" rather than voting for someone who's got the "qualifications and experience to do it better." [/QUOTE]

"Qualifications and experience to do it better," hunh? So did New York’s Governor Spitzer. So did Illinois’ former Governor Ryan (now in prison).

[/QUOTE] By way of illustration, I'd like to see some of the careful research you've done in considering this whole issue. Please post some of the things that Obama has done that are such a wild departure from the "same" you think McCain represents more of. I don't put much stock in words, so please make sure that you can provide examples. Research the candidate and show me what he's done. Two criteria should be met here: It's different, and it's for the best.

I will do the same for McCain if you like, and we can compare these two men side by side.

Also, in terms of the sociological credit you're assigning these candidates, why don't you also post some of the things that help Obama identify with downtrodden blacks in America. Be sure to include the popular opinion of those downtrodden blacks who see him as a half-white man raised in Hawaii with his white mother and white grandmother.

To make things fair, I will post some of the things that McCain has been through, and we can compare them from a sociological standpoint as well. If you're willing to get past McCain's skin color and stop holding his race against him, I think it would be a good exercise. If you can judge McCain on something other than his race, then we might both learn some interesting things. And if you can allow for the idea that a white man might be capable of making some positive changes, even though his skin color may not fit your preferences, I think you might see that McCain is a strong candidate. The real question isn't whether or not you're judging Obama's electability by his race - it's why you're so adamant about disqualifying McCain because he's white.

That's the part I think is racist. And if you're being honest, you'll see that it fits the definition perfectly.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, Mike, what’s the use, I mean, you can’t even see how ludicrous your “I’ve been a minority for 40 days and 40 nights, I understand” was.

Still, I’ll do it for my own edification and that of others. I’m sure this will be another one of those “how good was Bruce Lee?” things.

For now, I leave you with this speech by one of Obama’s most intelligent supporters, you know, to drive you up a wall and all that - LOL!

[Liberty]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akApqZPnyf4&NR=1[/YOUTUBE]

[Liberty]

Ghost:

Here is Obam himself make your arguement (as well as adressing some with the issues he will be addressing later on in his campaign). It's a talk he gave at Google and is about an hour long. It's before, as he himself has said, he went from specifics to the motivational speeches he realized he'd have to focus on if he was to mobilze a nation (the opposite of Hilary's and Bush's fear invoking lies), leaving specifics for later on in his race for the Presidency. It begins to pick up around 4:27 minutes:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4yVlPqeZwo[/YOUTUBE]

[Ghost]

This is a sophomoric argument, Liberty. Either you're telling me Obama is Gandhi (not) or you're trying to distract from the fact that YOU were the one that argued he came from the "people" that identified with him. You were wrong, and you're looking for examples to cover your mistake. If Obama starts acting like Gandhi and gives up material possessions in order to live among his people, I'll bite. Otherwise, my argument stands. McCain's life experience has prepared him every bit as well as Obama's has to identify with the poor and the have-nots. If you're going to dispute that, I'd appreciate you actually sticking to the facts. Are you suggesting that McCain's years as a POW did nothing to equip him to understand what it is like to feel oppressed? Hungry? Poor? Trapped? Are you suggesting that ANYTHING in Obabma's life could have had such a profound impact?

Stay on topic, buddy. You're too smart for the bait and switch. You aren't going to gain any headway telling me that Obama understands what it's like to be a poor and oppressed minority or that those poor and oppressed minorities can identify with his upbringing better than McCain's only to turn around and make excuses for his wealth and comfort.

I'll have to get back to this next week. This week is for family. Later, and please keep it going. I promise I'll return to this one.

Poor people in america or poor people around the world?

[jubaji]

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, .

Exactly. Which is what you are doing any time you reduce an individual to the one characteristic of race. When you essentialize a person you eliminate everything about them but that one factor (in this case, race) and that is NEVER a positive thing no matter how good you try to make yourself feel about it. It is racism, it is negative, and it is the fundamental foundation for all the prejudice and discrimination that surely follows.

[Ghost]

Exactly. Which is what you are doing any time you reduce an individual to the one characteristic of race. When you essentialize a person you eliminate everything about them but that one factor (in this case, race) and that is NEVER a positive thing no matter how good you try to make yourself feel about it. It is racism, it is negative, and it is the fundamental foundation for all the prejudice and discrimination that surely follows.

Its logical to discriminate when its for the overall good.

You speak in very basic notions of right and wrong. Things arent black and white (no pun intended) but they are more complicated.
Do you think a muslim ambassador for the US would have more luck than an equally skilled white american ambassodor would when visiting a muslim country.
Of course it makes a difference. there are many examples of when these things matter.
You take a chinese family as victims of crime and find one police station that wont use a chinese police officer if they have one free. Its just common sense.

What you are saying to amounts to "drugs are bad m'kay"
When that overlooks so many other factors, you cant make sweeping statements based on simple notions of this is right and that is wrong and there is nothing in between.

[jubaji]

You say that like prejudice and discrimination are necessarily bad things.

People discriminate every day, it is the basis of how people make decisions on all manners of things.

As for prejudice, everyone has their prejudices, it is why people like and dislike things.

Too tired to post anymore for now.

Semantic bullshit. You judge people by a skin tone and you essentially say that's all they are. Try to justify something positive in that if it helps you sleep at night.

[jubaji]

Its logical to discriminate when its for the overall good.

You speak in very basic notions of right and wrong. Things arent black and white (no pun intended) but they are more complicated.
Do you think a muslim ambassador for the US would have more luck than an equally skilled white american ambassodor would when visiting a muslim country.
Of course it makes a difference. there are many examples of when these things matter.
You take a chinese family as victims of crime and find one police station that wont use a chinese police officer if they have one free. Its just common sense.

What you are saying to amounts to "drugs are bad m'kay"
When that overlooks so many other factors, you cant make sweeping statements based on simple notions of this is right and that is wrong and there is nothing in between.

You are an idiot, a racist, and a general waste of oxygen. Go marry your first cousin and STFU

[Ghost]

Semantic bullshit. You judge people by a skin tone and you essentially say that's all they are. Try to justify something positive in that if it helps you sleep at night.

No, we arent just selecting any old black guy are we. Come on mate have a word.
We arent saying that as long as the guy is black its ok. We are saying that if its the right person then its perfect. There is a world of difference.
You need to think into this in some more detail you are making very elementary judgements based on simplistic notions of right/wrong.

[Liberty]

Exactly. Which is what you are doing any time you reduce an individual to the one characteristic of race. When you essentialize a person you eliminate everything about them but that one factor (in this case, race) and that is NEVER a positive thing no matter how good you try to make yourself feel about it. It is racism, it is negative, and it is the fundamental foundation for all the prejudice and discrimination that surely follows.

Jubaji, once, while a Puerto Rican friend of mine and I were speaking with a blue collar white woman, at one point she asks him, "what race are you?" He tried to evade an answer to this stupid question but she pressed on. Eventually he answered her. "But you're so smart!," she replied, surprised.

In other words, she never saw the person in front of her. I've run accross this type of scenario often.

The reality is that while you are dead on in your comment it is exactly what way too many engage in in the U.S. And judging by so many foreigners who also engage in this disgusting viewing of other fellow human beings, the U.S. is not alone in this practice.

How can we ever hope for peace in a world like that? Again, you're comment is dead on - but it is exactly what too many people do.

I grew up in an Oprah world, a world wherein, everyday for the past, what is it, 20 years now, millions of white mom's and their babies would tune in to this black woman who, in their minds had proven herself "not like other blacks." Thus, slowly sabotaging away some of this insideous nonsense planted in these white mom's by their parents and forefathers against a people merely for the color of their skin. What could a "not like other ethnics, Presidents" Obama begin to accomplish along these lines on a global scale if he were to turn out the real deal? What damage could he begin to cause to that twisted mentality that says some are inferior by their skin color, language, height, country, religion? How do you go about proving otherwise by mere comments alone? Astute observation alone (your Jubaji) has yet proven the solution. Your comment is valid but also the reality of what to many engage in out there.

Yes, Brewer, Obama should be better qualified, or at least greatly skilled at surrounding himself with those who are - more so a Susan Rice, for example, than a Zbigniev Brezhinski. As brilliant as Brezhinski is, though, if some o=f his ideology can be tempered, reigned in, can once more be of service to the U.S.

Enjoy your day guys,

Respectfully

[jubaji]

No, we arent just selecting any old black guy are we. Come on mate have a word.
We arent saying that as long as the guy is black its ok. We are saying that if its the right person then its perfect. There is a world of difference.
You need to think into this in some more detail you are making very elementary judgements based on simplistic notions of right/wrong.

**** off. You have made your racial agenda here very clear. Its not complicated, you are just an ignorant racist piece of shit and I'm glad you don't have a damn thing to do with our election, asswipe.