Cult activity as martial arts

[BB Wolf]

Re: bowing

Originally posted by kevin green

Is Texas part of asian culture?

Parts of Texas, yes!
There are areas in Houston where the street signs are in English, Chinese, and Vietnamese. I'm sure its not the only area in the state like that. Houston has one of the biggest Vietnamese populations in the US. Texas is a mix of many cultures. There are areas where everything is written in English and Spanish. In parts of central Texas you will find towns where many people speak 19th century German and Chech. I wouldn't be suprised along the Lousiana border if you heard a bit of Cajun French. Not to mention the various Native American languages spoken locally...

[Wearing Grey]

Give me the purpule cool-aid!!!!

[BB Wolf]

Klingon,
we may disagree on the semantics of the denotation of the word "cult", we basically agree on it popular usage/ meaning.
I definitely agree that in some martial art circles there is a "cult like" vibe when it comes to certain practices, techiques, or instuctors. I wouldn't call it religous in nature, just a lack of critical thinking.

Mr Green,
If the bowing, or whatever else you you have issue with in Asian martial arts rituals/culture bothers you so much, why don't you seek out a dojo or group that shares your beliefs about this. From what I understand, there are several Christian Martial Arts organizations out there. I'm not knocking your convictions, or, more importantly, your right to have your opinion, whether I agree with it or not. I am trying to be helpful. If finding another organization is not an option, perhaps you should talk to your instuctor about your concerns. You may be able to work something out. When I first started training in Kajukenbo, the class, after bowing in, would say a Christian prayer for safety and guidence before beginning the physical part of class. When I first observed this, I talked to the instructor and asked him if this was a "Karate for Christ" Dojo and were non-Christians welcome to train there? He expained while he was a Christian, and liked the prayer, it was part of the Kajukenbo tradition, many of the founding members being Catholic. The class was by no means Christian-only and non-Christians were free to participate. I was not required to recite the prayer. It was never an issue.
I hope this helps.

[Kingston]

dude. My name is Kingston not Klingon.....Your right though, we do agree with the popular meaning of what a cult is.

[BB Wolf]

Originally posted by Kingston
dude. My name is Kingston not Klingon.....Your right though, we do agree with the popular meaning of what a cult is.

Oops, my bad. I do apologize.
Sorry about that Kingston. Won't happen again.

[Tom Yum]

A side story about Houston. When I first went down town from IH 59 and exited Travis in search of a boxing gym, I passed atleast 10 blocks of street intersection signs written in English and Vietnamese. According to a friend who speaks the language, the names are written to phonetically sound like their English pronounciation. The same is done in the Chinatown district for 7-8 blocks on Bellaire on both sides of Beltway 8.

Example: Bellaire = baili (pronounced "buy lee") which means '100 fold profit'.

[eXcessiveForce]

Just a quick note.


First Bowing in asain culture is done much like a handshake as it is considered disrespectful.

There is a big difference between courtesy and respect and worship.

For instance in Korea it is considered to look down upon an older person. Meaning you lower your eyes and do not look at them if you are standing and they are sitting.

Belts were added to martial arts to allow other to tell what skill level you are at. They do not help in fighting but they do help instructors know who knows what and too keep people of similar skills grouped. It's not good for white belts and brown belts to fight when they don't know eachothers skill level. Not fool proof but it works. They also work as intermidiate goals for many people.

When you state forcing someone to bow is a disgrace that is true. But there is a difference between a bow of an individual who has been beaten and forced to bow and one who bows for respect.

Bows in asain culture are done usually and the shoulders more of a head bob. Worship bowing is generally done on the knees.

Religion also requires acknowledgement of a higher power that deserves worship rather. Martial arts generally do not have that type of dogma although some do.

If such things as bowing are against your belief structure find one that does not have it. Or learn the difference between customs and courtesy and that of worship.

I have never worshiped at a martial arts school. But I have shown respect to many. And many people have shown me respect by bowing. But I have yet have one pray to me.

[kevin green]

bowing and brown nosing buttkissers

It's in organized sports that the issue of bowing is being raised. It excludes some people from being able to participate. It turns others off as well it should the being forced to practice some vestige of a primitive religion (shinto worship rocks among other things). Bowing could be voluntary as it is slowly becoming and it would be considered as improving the sport. American Judo is in a miseable state they didn't even place in the last Olympics and that is partly because of the bozos and suckups that try to impose their archaic beleif systems on others . When someone in power does that it is usually referred to as bullying.
Among other things is that you have the politicians and bureaucrats that are drawn to positions of power over others and they have kept Judo in it's decrepit and backward state for far too long.

P.S .Oreintal culture may be part of Texas but Texas is not part of oriental culture. Americans have always been fighters that stand up against oppressive fanaticism! EITHER LEAD, FOLLOW OR GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY!

[Tom Yum]

Sounds like you have beef against politics in US judo and are projecting this onto all the Asian martial arts. If you don't like ceremonial bowing, change schools or arts.

You said that American's have been fighters of oppressive fanaticism but I don't see them rushing to beat up their bosses...jk

[jules]

Its like the schools whose secret techniques are so deadly that their students can't dare go to contests. Just bullshit.

What does that have to do with cultrual roots? All the wrestling terminoligy is in french. What's the big deal with that? Fencing uses a different type of "bowing".

It excludes some people from being able to participate.

If someone lacks the intellegence to tell the difference between cultural greetings and worship then i guess that he/she is not going to do much for the sport anyway.

It turns others off as well it should the being forced to practice some vestige of a primitive religion (shinto worship rocks among other things).

And we all see which catagory you fall into...

American Judo is in a miseable state they didn't even place in the last Olympics and that is partly because of the bozos and suckups that try to impose their archaic beleif systems on others .

Is that why Korea does so well in judo? It doesn't seem to hurt the dutch either.

[Tom Yum]

Kevins argument is not a rational one. He's affeared of foreigners (xenophobia).

The Russians, Dutch and Koreans dominate in Judo because Judo is their life and Judoka get government subsidies. Thus they can train 24/7. They do all of the same bowing and practice the same set of techniques.

Helass judo is not American football, can't attract big advertising $ and government subsidized sports would become a political infight over whose tax dollars would be used. So competitive American judoka have to work 8 hours and spend free time on Judo, wheras Russian Judoka get up at 6am and start training and don't stop till sunset.

So Kevin, America is not ready to be a top Judo competitor. As you see it has nothing to do with bowing or Shintoism.

[BB Wolf]

Re: bowing and brown nosing buttkissers

Originally posted by kevin green
It's in organized sports that the issue of bowing is being raised. It excludes some people from being able to participate. It turns others off as well it should the being forced to practice some vestige of a primitive religion (shinto worship rocks among other things).

Shinto practicioners don't worship rocks. They worship Kami, spirits that reside in all aspects of Nature. It is one of the world's oldest religions and by no means "primitive". Just because a religion is not monothesitic does not make it unsophisitcated.

Bowing could be voluntary as it is slowly becoming and it would be considered as improving the sport.

Are you disqualified if you don't bow? I realize it would be highly discurtious, but is there a rule saying that bowing is mandatory?
In many "combat" sports, there is usually some kind of salutation to the judges and/or opponent. As mentioned before, fencers salute each other before the match. Boxers touch gloves. Bowing in really no different. If you have that big a problem with it, perhaps a modern groundfignting or MMA system that has discarded all Eastern traditions would be more your cup of tea. Or merely tell them that it's against your religous beliefs. They may let it go at that.

Among other things is that you have the politicians and bureaucrats that are drawn to positions of power over others and they have kept Judo in it's decrepit and backward state for far too long.

That's not a MA thing, that's a life thing. You will find that in any organization, be it govermental, religous, secular, civic, etc, from the Congress to the local PTA.

P.S .Oreintal culture may be part of Texas but Texas is not part of oriental culture. Americans have always been fighters that stand up against oppressive fanaticism! EITHER LEAD, FOLLOW OR GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY!

How does showing respect to your teacher and opponent equal oppresive fanaticism? It's not like we are "high-fiving" a Nazi flag and goosestepping around the dojo (at least not at my school. Not likely to happen in a Krav Maga class ) And many of the "American fighters" against oppression, at least from foreign threats, were in the military, which meant they had to salute their superior. And who's to say that Asians, or Asian culture is not part of America? Who here has not eaten at a Chinese resturaunt? Slept on a futon? Drunk tea, for crying out loud? Asians have also played their part in defending this country against "oppressive fanaticism". The most decorated unit of WWII was a group of Nessei (not sure if that's spelled right), second generation Japanese, who enlisted, were given some pretty bad assignments (including rescuing a unit from Texas who were surrounded by Nazis), and were expected, if not set up, to fail time and time again. These guys did an extraordinary job, despite the deck being stacked against them, and many of them coming from the internment camps that the US government forced them into.

[popie]

Bowing is a sign of respect and and everyone who replied such has my respect.

[lssanjose]

as in football and in life. you may not like one another but you'll have to respect each other.

[kevin green]

training

Originally posted by Tom Yum
Kevins argument is not a rational one. He's affeared of foreigners (xenophobia).

The Russians, Dutch and Koreans dominate in Judo because Judo is their life and Judoka get government subsidies. Thus they can train 24/7. They do all of the same bowing and practice the same set of techniques.

Helass judo is not American football, can't attract big advertising $ and government subsidized sports would become a political infight over whose tax dollars would be used. So competitive American judoka have to work 8 hours and spend free time on Judo, wheras Russian Judoka get up at 6am and start training and don't stop till sunset.

So Kevin, America is not ready to be a top Judo competitor. As you see it has nothing to do with bowing or Shintoism.

Thats a common excuse but it ,finances and time, are not the reason. The richest country in the world has plenty of rich people that have time to train and compete. Plus they seem to win in the other sports just fine.Its the old fashioned thinking,people that are all caught up in the classical aspects.