Cult activity as martial arts

[kevin green]

Originally posted by Toudiyama[NL]



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that's the difference it would have made if you wouldn't have been born

I have a better way to spend you time, there are a lot of churches and Christians that worship Marie or so called Saints, which isn't alowed according to the bible, go help them find the right way instead of bottering us with utter nonsense

Someting to boggle your mind: Was the holy trinity invented to allow the worshipping of Jesus of Nazareth?

Dear Toady: please do not put fake quotes in my name.
Please do your bootlicking up front and don't forget to squeal like a pig every time you bow .P.S. It isn't about religion its about including more people so they can enjoy practising Judo. If you were de-programed you could see more clearly and not feel so threatened by reality. Its okay to stand up on your hind legs
although you feel much more comfortable groveling like some kind of brainwashed leg humping hero worshipper.

[RobertG]

Re: squealeo

Originally posted by kevin green
Can Moslems refuse to bow in intrnational competition? Can a fundementalist Christian refuse to bow in international judo competition? Can someone whose family suffered from the Shintoism sponsered Japanese atrocities of World War Two
and realizes the bowing in Judo has its roots in Shintoism refuse to bow and not feel like he's pissing on the graves of literally
hundreds of thousands of american servicemen ? They were taught to bow in the bataan death march. Right before they cut their heads off.

The guy in the movie "deliverance" was made to bow so squeal like a pig. There is a connection there too ! ouch.

You know Kevin it just occurred to me that people around the world bow. Since the only people who practice Shinto are those in Japan, and since Japan never ruled more than a small swath of eastern Asia, its kind of hard to explain bowing as a by-product of Shintoism.

For instance, you've mentioned that Muslims bow when they pray to Mecca. Well Japan never conquered the Islamic world, nor had much contact with them. So how exactly did Islam get brainwashed by a Japanese "cult" as you call Shinto? Bowing, I believe, used to be practiced in Europe, a very Christian stronghold with no Shinto roots. What about the Chinese? They bow and they don't practice Shinto. Jews bow in Synagouge--they aren't Shinto. I could go on and on with the bowing. Everyone does it except for you. Which is why you are a royal douchebag.

[kevin green]

It is exactly the reasons you stated, because a lot of people use bowing to worship God in their own way, that it excludes some people from participating in Judo (or even other martial arts) Plus the picture of the american fighting man, whether he is black, yellow ,white, beige, green ,red or purple in skin color and round eyed ,slant eyed or wide eyed does not include him bowing to anything on this earth except his God given right to worship his God or Gods in the way he deems fit.
Americans stand up for whats right, not bow to some little dictater whether he runs some country or runs some little dinky Judo contests.
Americans tend to stomp into the mud these so called leaders that think everybody has to do things their way regardless of human dignity. The day is coming when people will be free from this bowing bullshit too, because its obviously wrong under certain circumstances like national and international competition.
Maybe its okay at the school you don,t have to go to that school.
Maybe its okay to bow if its voluntary.
But forced bowing has got to stop because it takes away from the sport and excludes people.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

The bowing doesn't exclude people, it's people who put more into it than it is, that exclude themself
And to tell you the truth, we can miss them, we don't need religion in martial arts and by making this a big deal puts religion in the picture were it wasn't
Start your onw school, find others that agree with you, start and organisation and then find other coutries that agree, if other religious people like Muslims have the same objections ( non of my muslimstudents object to it) it shouldn't be hard to find those and together organise your own international competition, instead of nagging others with it, since no-one here agrees with you, you are fighting a lost batle here
I understand that being an american you don't want to give up but this is useless

Btw, America as a nation tended to support South american rightwing dictators that really did everything their way at the cost of human dignaty of the people

[seeking 3rd eye]

Maybe I'm just off the deep end, I bow to my sifu as a sign of respect at class, not evrytime I see him. I have always just put bowing in the same context as shaking someones hand as a sign of respect nothing more nothing less. This is just my personal opinion.

[Lizard]

If you want the freedom to bow, you must be prepared to give the people who run the tournaments the freedom to only allow people to fight if they first bow. They aren't forcing you to bow, but they won't let you fight unless you do. That's the way capitalism works.

What do you really want?

More freedom for you but less for them? I understand you now.

[Lizard]

Just read the stuff on this page too.

Toudy (or Toady) is right on two points

1) It doesn't matter what you think, it's what you do that counts. Stop complaining and start taking action. You won't acheive anything by suggesting that the members of a martial arts forum are homosexual.

2) America has supported south american dictators.

[terry]

I'm going to take a guess that Kevin Green is a troubled teenager who has never travelled beyond the United States and Canada.

[Roland]

1. Shinto-ism had nothing to do with Japan's entry into WWII nor the atrocities commited by Japanese troops. The socio-political reasons behind the Japanese atrocities before and during WWII are many and complex. BTW - during the Boxer Rebellion and the 1905 Russo-Japanese War, foreign observers noted that the Japanese troops treated their prisoners with chivalry and correctness. Does this mean that this was due to Shinto-ism? During the Boxer Rebellion, the Germans and Russians committed some terrible atrocities - was this due to their practicing Christianity? Anyway, to claim that the Japanese are Shintoists PERIOD is a rather simplistic view of religion in Japan. Buddhism and Shintoism are both major religions in Japan and most Japanese adhere to both.

2. About America having crushed oppression wherever it exists - now just WHO is the cultist here? The USA has been guilty of making some terrible choices in its friends in the past and it will probably continue to make these same mistakes in the future. Saudi Arabia is one of the most oppressive countries out there - one of my American friends visited there for work and came back a bit horrified by the way the country was run. Yet, they are nominally a "friendly" nation. During the bad old days of the Cold War, various cruel and perverted dictators were set up and supported up by the US government in order to contain communism. The truth of the matter is that the USA does what every other country out there does when it comes to the matter of supporting or crushing other nations - it supports those whose interests are parallel (more or less) with those of the USA and opposes those with orthogonal (more or less) interests. Your insistence on clinging to this view of America as a country that stands up for the little guy and justice, etc. is vaguely reminiscent of cultish behaviour - blind adherance to set of beliefs which in the light of careful examination do not stand up.

3. The insistence that people bow in Judo tournaments has nothing to do with America's performance in international Judo. It has more to do with the fact that Judo is a not, relatively speaking, a popular sport in the USA. Thus, it attracts a smaller pool of athletes than other sports. In France, a country with very strong Judo, Judo tournaments are televised, major tournaments are advertised on billboards, and Judo champions are minor celebrities. I imagine the same is true in Japan. However, you can not say the same for the USA where Olympic Judo matches are not even given airtime, tournaments are NOT advertised on billboards and where Judo champions exist and train in relative obscurity. It's not the bowing that's keeping US Judo down. It's apathy, pure and simple.

[kevin green]

Shintoism was the official religion of the Japanese government for 150 years culminating in World War Two. Emperor worship or Cult of the Sun was used as an Extreme form of facism and racism . U.S.prisoners of war in ww2 were17 times more likley
to suffer death under the Japanese than the U.S.prisoners of war under the Nazis. GET IT? COMPARED TO THE NAZIS!!!!
HELLO WAKE THE F*** UP. Every time your forced to bow in a judo contest its just like going out to a federal cemetary and pissing on their graves.

Plus all you little toady assholes if it wern't for the american fighting man there would only be white people on this earth and ninty percent of them would be enslaved. And the rest would be goosestepping fanatics using nuclear weapons to enforce their will. You people don't realize how goddamn close it came in world war two and if Hitler would've stepped back and let his generals do their jobs you could all be sitting around doing the Heil Hitler salute instead of bowing. And there isn't one goddamn person on this earth that shouldn't thank God every day for the american culture and way of life . And thats because america is made up of everybody on this planet. Everybody wants to come to america -
you don't see too many leaving ! Personally I look at the Bible and see where it talks about "On the Wings of Eagles.... get it? "Eagles" Not bowing turkeys. Eagles

[Roland]

Actually, things were never "close" in WWII.

Japan didn't have the resources to defeat the Allies. Nazi Germany didn't have the resources to defeat the Allies. Italy certainly didn't have the resources to defeat the Allies. Throughout the war, the Axis were always short of resources. This is what eventually led to their defeat.

Japan was embroiled in a very long and bloody war in China at the time and much of her manpower was devoted to taking (and consequently defending) any territory that she seized. The Japanese also failed to properly defend their merchant shipping from the territories they seized in the Dutch Indies - this meant that they could not benefit from or fully use the resources they had captured. Japan was still not a modern nation in comparison with the USA. There was no way that Japan could out-produce the USA.

Nazi Germany was short on resources as well. Mass production (at least in the sense that it existed in the USA) did not exist in Nazi Germany. The Germany army wasn't even fully mechanized - the most common means of transport in the Germany army after the train was the horse. After Germany entered the war, the government requisitioned every spare motor vehicle they could find for military use simply because they didn't have enough cars and trucks - compare this to the USA which pumped out so many Ford trucks that they didn't know what to do with them.

Italy was a poor nation and the Italians were not very enthusiastic followers of Mussolini.

The Allies were never on the brink of defeat. Even after the fall of France, Great Britain was never in any great danger - for an invasion of Great Britain to succeed, the Germany NAVY would have had to transport an invasion fleet across the English Channel, a task for which it was woefully inadequate.

As for your assertion that Shintoism is somehow linked to atrocities committed by the Japanese - you haven't really presented a coherent argument; you have merely repeated what you have said initially. Merely repeating a statement over and over again is not going to make it true.

[BB Wolf]

Ok,
this thread has gotten to the point of absurdity that I have to "bow out". The camps are set and I see no more point in participating in this as it is quickly degenerating into a name calling and dick measuring contest. No one is going to change their opinion and a civilized exchange of ideas is beyond this conversation in my opinion. Good luck to you all.
Mr. Green, I have tried to be respectful of your beliefs and opinions. Once again, I suggest finding a dojo more to your liking. As far as your beef with Shinto goes, keep in mind that organized religions are run by people with their own agendas and motivations, and are willing to use religon to further their own goals and aims. Many of the atrocities commited throughout history were commited "in the name of god" in what ever form that fit those people and that culture. While there were Shinto elements in the Japanese atrocities of WWII (not the Shintoism practiced today), you must look at your own Christian heritage: the Crusades (those alone are fascinating, horrifying and worth reading up on), the Inquisition, witch burnings/hangings, various Catholic/Protestant wars, the endorcement of slavery by many churches, the literal/cultural genocide of the American Indian, the complacency/apathey about the Nazi Holocaust, etc...
My point is, no religion can historically hold the moral high ground when it comes to man's inhumanity to man.

Find a dojo/organization/ art that agrees with your beliefs, or, if you are a Black Belt, perhaps start your own?

[kevin green]

You just agreed with everything I said. My beef isn't with Shinto or any other religion. It isn't with any race either .Its a simple thing to make bowing voluntary to open the sport of Judo up so more people can participate. Look how much resistance there is.
We will probably have to start with a brand new generation of kids that havn't already been indoctrinated before we can have any champions. The extent that people will go down the slippery slope to give up their rights is astounding.Is this a sickness or is it just basic dumb animal stupidity?
Do you realize that the U.S. didn't even PLACE in the last Olympics?That is because the people in charge are all caught up in the" classical bowing, worship the spirits of Judo " bullshit?
You need to listen because everything I say is true fact. Everything .

[Toudiyama[NL]]

BTW the fact that the japanese didn't treat POW's well has to do with the samurai spirit NOT, NOT, NOT with Shinto, in their eys a soldier should never ever surrender
Also they were often just as cruel to a japanese soldier that did something wrong because of the same Bushido spirit

What bugs me most is that Kevin only looks at things from the american side forgetting that many civilians were put in camps too
At least the POW were treated like they would a japanese soldier that surrendered

It looks like the preacher at his church told him this about Shinto and therefore he doesn't have any argument and even though evryone by now has explained that Shinto was neither the cause of the war nor the reason for bowing, he keeps comming back to
it

The way Kevin puts it Christianity would be responsible for Saddam being in power in the first place, he got help from the US when they were fighting against Iran and the same is true for the Taliban or Al qaida (not for the actions but for them being there in the first place)

Oh I could have gone to the US a few weeks ago to be trained for another job and guess what I declined Although I'm not anti US ( just Anti Bush ;-) ) so everybody want to come to the US yeah right everybody that doesn't have much maybe

And seeing that Kevin is so focused on WW II the US refused to take on a ship of jewish refugees from Europe, they were only taken when the captain sunk his ship
They were casualties of a dictator that did everything his way at the cost of human dignity but the Us wasn't prepared to help them....must have been because they are "the murderers of Christ"

It's funny to see someone who clearly must be in "lalaland" tell others to wake up
Have yoy ever had such a dream where you think you wake up byt moments later notice that you are still asleep?

[Lizard]

Originally posted by kevin green
Look people who follow shinto are religeous fanatics. They are totaly evil. Look at things logicaly and without bias: America is the greatest place ever! We help everyone! Christianity is the one true religeon, the religion of the great and glorious america! We fight the devil and promote peace and justice everywhere. Stop talking about cruasades and cold war dictators supported by america, that is all in the past, stop living in the past! What is much more important is world war 2 where the japanese did bad things, since we fought them that makes us totaly kick ass good!!! huray! We need more freedom for everyone so I can force the Judo people to accept MY values and MY beliefs!

I would have agreed with you if you hadn't started to talk about cults and dicktators etc.

I don't beieve that bowing should be forced. I don't really think it does any harm and probably isn't even worth changing but I do agree that in an ideal world we would not be forced to bow (although I think almost everyone would do it volontarily with the possible exception of you).