Cult activity as martial arts

[Lizard]

Never in my life have I ever told anyone over the internet that I would beat the crap out of them. It's so pathetic, anyone can say it. I don't think that poeple should be forced to bow. Kevin you really should try to make your point without insulting people and sounding ignorant/crazed. Robert G is one of the most intelligent people on this forum, it is not wise to insult him. Now lets get back to a nice, civilised and constructive discussion.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Sorry for al the other americans

Nice little coutry you have there Kevin, you don't want to bow for the mat and battle against it, you don't want to be forced to do so but on the same time children are forced to say "One nation under GOD"even if they are atheist
Can you explain that to me?

Most people here seem to hold an opposite opinion, yet they are Christians or Atheists, if you don't take it religious , it aint religious
God knows yoou are just showing respect,
not praying to another god
I'm amazed how people can say they believe in an opnipotent god and somehow think he's stupid or something

[kevin green]

Schools are forced to say the Pledge but students DO NOT have to.
Plus some people do use bowing to show their respect to God.That shows how important bowing can be. Its just that by forcing people to bow in Judo contests that some people are excluded from the sport .It is not a big thing but it is one way to improve the sport.
But also bowing is used to control people.It is a submissive act
some people use to help break other people down. Its a symptom of a sickness that can and does lead to some real evil.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

again with the submissive, it's a sign of respect nothing else, it isn't Judo or any art that places bowing in that contects, teachers that do aren't proper teachers, it is and always shall be a sign of respect for those who use it, it won't lead to evil as you put it
The only thing it does is cause mindtroubles for overimmaginative religious people like yourself

I get this feeling that you think the earth is no more than aprox 6000 years old and creation took 144 hour

[kevin green]

It isn't about religion .Its about freedom from religion(shinto) Or Freedom of religion.Its not a difficult concept, allowing people to bow if they want to.
Its just a way to get more people to participate in a sport .(Judo)

[Kyle]

Oi.

Okay... I'm not a martial artist. I'm not a Christian. I was browsing through this board because a friend referred me to a link on Hollywood Martial Artists...

I registered here after reading this thread. Personally, I have a big problem with idiots, or hypocrites. Kevin Green, even I have the brains to realize that bowing is not a cultist thing. Neither is calling a teacher "Sensei" or "Master".

When you talk to your Pastor or whoever, you probably use some honorific. "Reverend Green" or something like that. Same thing with this. "Master Dan". When you shake your religious leader's hand after a nice Sunday Mass, it's exactly the same as bowing. It's a sign of respect, nothing more.

While bowing is generally obsolete in today's society in normal functions, not too long ago it was expected that if you were at a formal function, you would politely bow or curtsy to the patrons of the party. No difference here. It's a sign of respect for letting you be at the party, and for whatever else they have done.

You keep saying these people are closeminded, brainwashed, whatever. You say that (probably slightly off quote) "Americans have been steadfast fighters against oppressive fanatics. Either lead us, follow us, or get the hell out of our way!" Does that not sound a bit like oppressive fanaticism? If not, then it is clear to me that you are the only thoroughly closeminded and brainwashed person present.

If that was meant as sarcasm, then your other comments are also strong indicators. In fact, I would go so far as to say that you are a person that refuses to listen to any other side, arguing his point to the death, usually even "just for the hell of it". As in, you argue for no reason but to argue, you don't really care about what it is you're talking about, or you have some slight concern, but are blowing it all out of proportion to suit your purposes.

Have you noticed that no one is agreeing with you? Perhaps there's a reason for that. A good reason. And perhaps you should strongly consider what that reason might be before posting further.

Thank you. *bows*

[kevin green]

mindless intellectual dwarfs

What about the one billion or so moslems you seem to be so unaware of. They bow five times a day and consider the bowing as actual prayer. Its not that bowing is wrong in itself it is that it is used for control purposes. How does this add anything to the sport of Judo ?It doesn't. It actually prohibits participation. It excludes people from enjoying and practising the sport of Judo. Plus it lends itself to the whole classical standing still old fashioned Judo. Sub-par cultish moonies all moving in goosestepping mindless purple koolaid drinking brownnosing and sucking up to the status quo politician power hungry egotists
that crave the power over others. These aren't the competitors .
GOT IT? Its the politician types that crave that worship the spirits shit. Bow to me or you can't join our little group.

[Tom Yum]

Islam is not martial arts.
Islam is not Christianity.

Bowing is about showing respect, plain and simple. If you dislike showing respect in that manner, then shut up and join another MA studio that doesn't make you bow.

Troll

[Kyle]

First off: Muslims. They are not terrorists, they are religious. The terrorist attacks are done by false muslims - like Hitler was a false Christian, if there is any such thing. What they do goes against their religious philosophies, yet they can see anything in their philosophies that they desire. It is a matter of perception.

Secondly, polytheism (Worship of multiple gods or spirits) is still in practice today, and I guarantee you the only politicians you'll see in America are those that are Christian - at least, officially. And by the way, politician is not a dirty word. Some politicians are the reason you're still standing on "Free Land" and not under the yoke of a "Dictator" as is. Again, polytheism is no more of an excuse for self-worship than Christianity. I won't bother to tell you which is better, as again, it is a matter of perception.

It only "prevents participation" to those that are too stiff-necked and short of vision to accede to the rules. While I do not believe rules should never be changed, I do believe that sometimes change is unneccesary, or simply "stupid".

Besides all that, psychology wise - some people need that sort of structure. There are people that are all into doing everything themselves. They exceed their limits physically and mentally, without any sort of goad from coaches, teachers, sensei, or friends. Then, there are people that need someone to push them the whole way. For this, they need constant structure for what they are attempting learn or achieve. Submission to a more experienced person is a part of this - if you can't respect your teacher, you'll learn little to nothing from them.

Bowing is also a likely means of trying to make the sports-side of martial arts more decent-minded. Not very nice if you're trying to actually kill your opponent - it's a little subconscious reminder that this is nothing more than a game.

And as has been stated in this thread many times over - if you don't like it, go somewhere else. They're not making you participate. They just want you to follow their rules. This is the same in any thing. It's not exactly good policy to stand up in the middle of a sermon and say "GOD SUCKS! I HATE YOU! AND YOU! AND YOU! I don't like what you say you stupid priest person, and I'm going to a higher authority to change it!!" No. It just comes out sounding like you're a psychopathic idiot.

Perhaps you should even consider an alternate route. You might actually follow the rules, and bow. Maybe it's not as bad as you think.

And if you're still thinking on the "Thou shalt not worship a graven image or person over me" frame of mind, then you might consider the fact that you're not worshipping the "graven image" or person at all. And if you are, you have a serious obsession.

[kevin green]

squealeo

Can Moslems refuse to bow in intrnational competition? Can a fundementalist Christian refuse to bow in international judo competition? Can someone whose family suffered from the Shintoism sponsered Japanese atrocities of World War Two
and realizes the bowing in Judo has its roots in Shintoism refuse to bow and not feel like he's pissing on the graves of literally
hundreds of thousands of american servicemen ? They were taught to bow in the bataan death march. Right before they cut their heads off.

The guy in the movie "deliverance" was made to bow so squeal like a pig. There is a connection there too ! ouch.

[Kyle]

Eesh.

Not necessarily, but they can refuse to participate in the the competition.

Don't forget that the Japanese aren't the only group who have done horrible things. Americans have to. Massively so. So have Christians. And Germans. Russians, English, every organization, country, or religion. It's fanatacism that is horrible, not a country, martial art, tradition, or religion. It's when it's taken too far that it becomes a terrible thing.

I somehow doubt that bowing to a teacher is taking it too far.

[RobertG]

Re: mindless intellectual dwarfs

Originally posted by kevin green
What about the one billion or so moslems you seem to be so unaware of. They bow five times a day and consider the bowing as actual prayer. Its not that bowing is wrong in itself it is that it is used for control purposes. How does this add anything to the sport of Judo ?It doesn't. It actually prohibits participation. It excludes people from enjoying and practising the sport of Judo. Plus it lends itself to the whole classical standing still old fashioned Judo. Sub-par cultish moonies all moving in goosestepping mindless purple koolaid drinking brownnosing and sucking up to the status quo politician power hungry egotists
that crave the power over others. These aren't the competitors .
GOT IT? Its the politician types that crave that worship the spirits shit. Bow to me or you can't join our little group.

Ummm, so lets see if I have this straight.

Judo people shouldn't bow because:

a) It means they are gay and like to have sex with their instructor and are sexual bottoms.

b) We might offend Muslims because they bow to Mecca.

c) Its mind control.

d) We shouldn't offend the Muslims and should allow them to peacefully continue their own brand of sexual deviance and mind control.

e) If people bow they might drink poisoned Power Aid en masse at Judo tournaments and kill themselves.

f) Bowing means you will stand still and not randori. This one makes the most sense of all.

So first off, I, for one, could care less if we offend all the Muslims of the world by bowing. They're already pretty offended by us as it is, so I say lets just all bow in their general direction to piss them off some more. I fail to see how bowing judoka are going to inspire a new fatwah or call for jihad. Most of the Muslim world could care less about judo. Also, they have Turkish wrestling. So far as I can tell, this is right up your anal alley. Naked men oiled down wrestling and grabbing each others nuts and sticking fingers in the ass and all. That has Kevin Green's name all over it. And how can any religion that practices something as homoerotic as Turkish wrestling possibly be offended by bowing judoka??

Lets talk about this standing still and bowing stuff. What does one have to do with the other? You bow, you grab uke and move and throw, move and throw, move and throw. Then you bow again. Bowing is independent of how judo is taught.

Lets taling about bowing and submission. How exactly is bowing an act of sexual submission (as you claim) when you and your instructor bow to each other at the same time? Since you are both bowing to each other, then what, are you both submissive? That doesn't really work. Also, traditionally, you aren't supposed to make eye contact. Your instructor looks at the ground, you look at the ground. Its not you look at the ground while your instructor maintains eye contact. Maybe at your S&M judo dojo its like that. I didn't learn judo in gay leather bars like you. And if you want to talk about that sort of thing they have websites for that. Don't bring it here.

Oh, and, lastly, since I know you have impaired short term memory, you are a big douchebag. Go troll somewhere else. You're getting boring now.

[Kittylitter]

Kevin,

You claim that you are sandan in Judo, but with your attitude it makes me wonder who promoted you.

I have seen a few quack instructors out there, but not any of those guys would even promote you to any kind of rank with that attitude of whining about bowing.

I have never actually thought of bowing as sucking up or controlling, unlike the other idiots that cost the USJI thousands to fight in court.

[kevin green]

The classical Judo people are the ones that try to teach Judo standing still. They use analogies of sticks and boxes. They teach it one way but thanks to modern technology you can play the tape back and even stop action it .If this gets too technical let me know. Plus they try to teach judo in the japanese language.
They use copies of Shinto shrines( kamis) for trophies.They think that you should also worship the "spirits of Judo". They have you bow to perpetuate their positions of authority which they are drawn to like a fly on a turd.
Movement should be taught while in motion. I know thats a difficult concept but so is freedom of religion , freedom of speech etc.

Remember now, Movement should be taught while in motion.


Robert G. : squeal like a pig every time you bow you bootlicker

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Originally posted by kevin green
I'm a bornagain Christian and eversince I think everything related to other culture is the work of the DEVIL, you might call that Xenofobic religious fanatism but T'm shure god will send everyone who bows in Martial Arts to HELL

0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000

that's the difference it would have made if you wouldn't have been born

I have a better way to spend you time, there are a lot of churches and Christians that worship Marie or so called Saints, which isn't alowed according to the bible, go help them find the right way instead of bottering us with utter nonsense

Someting to boggle your mind: Was the holy trinity invented to allow the worshipping of Jesus of Nazareth?