Wing Chun or Wing Tsun?

[Red Rum]

My Wing Chun held up against him so well that he has been with me now for over 4 years and he is not just a Ju Jitsu black belt and fighter but also a streetfighter, not that he is proud of it, but Carlisle can be a bit of a rough night out and Mike was involved in real fights most weekends..

honest answer to an honest question, but one of our instructors is a jujitsu guy (Japenese style) and his grappling isn't really that good, so i'm not convinced by your argument here. Haven't you gone down to BJJ gym and tried it out? One guy, no matter how tough he is cannot convince you that grappkling is part of wing chun surely?

I never said I used chi sau to submit people, but getting into a choke position is just an extension of chi sau, I don't use strikes in chi sau, I use it to control elbows so that my opponent does not have a line of attack open to hit me, while I manipulate them so I have an opportunity of a clear strike..

I understand what you are saying - you can get someone in a choke during chi sao. But you wouldn't go up to someone in a fight and chi sao them!!

Why would I want to grapple anyway? Rolling on the floor getting hot and sweaty with half naked men, some in lycra shorts and covered in baby oil is not my idea of fun..

I agree with you. Each to their own. But if you want to talk about grappling I would advise that you do some. I once thought like you until I did Judo/BJJ and then realised that you can't wing chun someone into a grapple

[tjwingchun]

Okay, before people (Thai Bri) start ripping this guy apart. Can I just ask the guy how his wing chun holds up when he has gone against wrestlers, BJJ guys etc?

I have found that chi sao helps in other martial arts but you cannot specifically rely on it to chi sao someone into submission - that is just daft.

Kevin Chan is one of the best guys I have touched hands with and he doesn't use chi sao to submit a guy!!!

I just wish people would get out of this ridiculous idea that you can wing chun someone in a Muay Thai fight under MT rules, or wing chun someone into grappling.

Wing chun is a striking, close quarter art. If you want to do a sport, go and train in a sport based art. If you want to grapple, go and train in a grappling art. You never hear a Muay Thai guy saying that they are going to use their clinching to chi sao someone

Okay Thai Bri.. He's all yours....

Thai Bri knows me already!!!

My most recent experience is with one of my students who had 13 years experience in Ju Jitsu, not the fancy Brazilian stuff, he is from Carlisle and it is "you chatting my sheep up" land, lol.

My Wing Chun held up against him so well that he has been with me now for over 4 years and he is not just a Ju Jitsu black belt and fighter but also a streetfighter, not that he is proud of it, but Carlisle can be a bit of a rough night out and Mike was involved in real fights most weekends.

I never said I used chi sau to submit people, but getting into a choke position is just an extension of chi sau, I don't use strikes in chi sau, I use it to control elbows so that my opponent does not have a line of attack open to hit me, while I manipulate them so I have an opportunity of a clear strike.

My Wing Chun is about me knowing how my body mechanics can be used in violent confrontations, if I was going to go into Muay Thai I would have to understand and fight by their rules and if you play in someone elses garden you lose!

Why would I want to grapple anyway? Rolling on the floor getting hot and sweaty with half naked men, some in lycra shorts and covered in baby oil is not my idea of fun.

My opinion of sports fighting is that the ultimate is boxing, simply for one reason, if you are any good you can make money out of your skill, I have students who have gone into NHB fighting and that is their personal choice and I helped them develop for that specific environment, but fighting to make money for promoters to me does not make sense, if you are going to risk the brain damage you should at least be getting paid decent money.

[Red Rum]

As far as the grappling argument goes it has been part of my training for a long time as I view it as simply an extension of Chi Sau and has always been in my Wing Chun.

Okay, before people (Thai Bri) start ripping this guy apart. Can I just ask the guy how his wing chun holds up when he has gone against wrestlers, BJJ guys etc?

I have found that chi sao helps in other martial arts but you cannot specifically rely on it to chi sao someone into submission - that is just daft.

Kevin Chan is one of the best guys I have touched hands with and he doesn't use chi sao to submit a guy!!!

I just wish people would get out of this ridiculous idea that you can wing chun someone in a Muay Thai fight under MT rules, or wing chun someone into grappling.

Wing chun is a striking, close quarter art. If you want to do a sport, go and train in a sport based art. If you want to grapple, go and train in a grappling art. You never hear a Muay Thai guy saying that they are going to use their clinching to chi sao someone

Okay Thai Bri.. He's all yours....

[Red Rum]

As far as the grappling argument goes it has been part of my training for a long time as I view it as simply an extension of Chi Sau and has always been in my Wing Chun.

Okay, before people (Thai Bri) start ripping this guy apart. Can I just ask the guy how his wing chun holds up when he has gone against wrestlers, BJJ guys etc?

I have found that chi sao helps in other martial arts but you cannot specifically rely on it to chi sao someone into submission - that is just daft.

Kevin Chan is one of the best guys I have touched hands with and he doesn't use chi sao to submit a guy!!!

I just wish people would get out of this ridiculous idea that you can wing chun someone in a Muay Thai fight under MT rules, or wing chun someone into grappling.

Wing chun is a striking, close quarter art. If you want to do a sport, go and train in a sport based art. If you want to grapple, go and train in a grappling art. You never hear a Muay Thai guy saying that they are going to use their clinching to chi sao someone

Okay Thai Bri.. Your turn...

[tjwingchun]

Bit of a shock to get an email about this forum as I tend to banter with the nuggets in Bullshido and insidekungfumagazine forums since I got back on line, even more of a suprise to see that you are still around Thai Bri, thought you would have been permanently erased by now, lol.

I am now firmly esconced in Colonia de Sant Jordi, Majorca and have the bar up and running, have to wait for the house to be finished to get the gym started for training holidays and teaching again, cannot wait to start happy slapping once more, lol.

As far as the grappling argument goes it has been part of my training for a long time as I view it as simply an extension of Chi Sau and has always been in my Wing Chun.

[Thai Bri]

And he certainly has my respect for doing that.

[Red Rum]

Yep.

Including all the genuine Instructors. Because Wing Chun does not have all these things in it's original form.

Exactly. A lot of people argue that Chi Na (supposedly part of wing chun) is better than BJJ and that a wing chunner is safe in a grapple, which doesn't really help its credibility

Wing Chun does not have grappling. You can use wing chun to grapple (ie the sensitivity aspects allows it easier to feel when people are going to move position etc), but trying to grapple using wing chun moves is ludicrous!!!

In Kamon, Master Chan saw the hole in wing chun and immediately started training in BJJ under the Gracies

[Rickster]

Some confrontations cannot be avoided, or shouldn't be avoided.
There are people in this world, who are just nasty scroats, who only come down to earth when they get a slap.

I have known many people who were attacked by druggies, drunk guys or just vicious b*stards, for no reason at all and there are no ways of getting out of it.

I think entering a fight is a very mature decision especially if you are fighting for the right reasons. If you go around looking for a fight then yes you deserve to be pummelled. But backing away when someone is in your face is just ridiculous. That is how tyrants have come to rule the world - because no-one stood up to them.

Yes, depending on where you are and the scoail order,conforntations cannot be avoided.

And-I did state-

HOWEVER-I do have to state one should learn many physical applications to be well-rounded and preapared.

[Thai Bri]

Wing Chun has ground techniques and grappling techniques and some holds locks etc. Although some instructors don't touch upon it so much.

Yep.

Including all the genuine Instructors. Because Wing Chun does not have all these things in it's original form.

[jubaji]

masters of the bubble

Eya we have a non-believer!!!! Well just stay in ya little bubble

LOL, that's funny coming from a WCer!

[Red Rum]

Eya we have a non-believer!!!! Well just stay in ya little bubble and hope it don't get burst by a big hairy, broken nosed, alky who wants to snap your spine. Get from behind the Keyboard and get out there.

Sounds like Jubajii needs a chat with Geoff Thompson for clarification about how good bouncers generally are at fighting/handling people

[Bigbadade]

LOL, among other things...



It is interesting to note that if MA forums are to be believed there must be just about one bouncer to every patron at every bar in the world.

Eya we have a non-believer!!!! Well just stay in ya little bubble and hope it don't get burst by a big hairy, broken nosed, alky who wants to snap your spine. Get from behind the Keyboard and get out there.

[Red Rum]

Yes, I was like most.

Concerned with fighting.

Had many fights, street and otherwise.

Received many injuries. (If you think you are going to come out of every fight un-scathed, then you really havent been in many hardcore street battles.)

But, then one gets to a a point of martial matuirty.

Avoiding confontations.

No longer having the aggression or mindset about confrontation.

Besides, where I am from, all the martial arts in the world wont help when you get shot. I know a few martial artists whom thought they were the stuff. They didnt even see it coming.

All of my current confrontations have resulted in non-fighting

Anyone still predisposed with the fighting aspects of martial arts, have yet to gain its maturity.

HOWEVER-I do have to state one should learn many physical applications to be well-rounded and preapared.

Some confrontations cannot be avoided, or shouldn't be avoided.
There are people in this world, who are just nasty scroats, who only come down to earth when they get a slap.

I have known many people who were attacked by druggies, drunk guys or just vicious b*stards, for no reason at all and there are no ways of getting out of it.

I think entering a fight is a very mature decision especially if you are fighting for the right reasons. If you go around looking for a fight then yes you deserve to be pummelled. But backing away when someone is in your face is just ridiculous. That is how tyrants have come to rule the world - because no-one stood up to them.

[Rickster]

Hey! That's all very spiritual.

But to me geting "better" means getting more able to defend myself. And "improving within" isn't what the doctor ordered.

Yes, study to defend-indeed.

But listen to within's heed.

I am not speaking about spiritual, but listening to the self.

There comes a time, per age, where this will pass.

Careers, family, environment, all change the "within".

[Rickster]

Exactly!! Why would you want to be stuck in an art that rips you off and doesn't teach you anything. Or worse, makes you believe that you are awesome!!!

And I don't agree with you Rickster - it is a great feeling when people come up and say how good you are. Yes, I probably am vain but it is awesome when people tell me that I fought a good fight or when I hear people cheer in the crowd. Because overall, you are judged by your peers. And it does matter what they think. You sound like one of those fools who believe that beauty comes from within. And I have spent the past four years finding out thats not true


Rickster - my advice to you is paint, sculpt but stay away from martial arts.

Yes, I was like most.

Concerned with fighting.

Had many fights, street and otherwise.

Received many injuries. (If you think you are going to come out of every fight un-scathed, then you really havent been in many hardcore street battles.)

But, then one gets to a a point of martial matuirty.

Avoiding confontations.

No longer having the aggression or mindset about confrontation.

Besides, where I am from, all the martial arts in the world wont help when you get shot. I know a few martial artists whom thought they were the stuff. They didnt even see it coming.

All of my current confrontations have resulted in non-fighting

Anyone still predisposed with the fighting aspects of martial arts, have yet to gain its maturity.

HOWEVER-I do have to state one should learn many physical applications to be well-rounded and preapared.