Why is Kung Fu not considered to be truly effective in actual combat?

[Londo Molari]

I don't know exactly... I'm told its Shaolin with heavy kick-boxing influence. It sounds kind of sketchy, but since I'm very happy with my training (except the lack of grappling) I doubt my sifu just "made it up". Also we enter all tournaments against other academies, so it must be sort of "legit", as legit as Shaolin Kung-Fu can get now-a-days.

[jmd161]

I have been told by my Sifu that Kung-Fu means "to master something" while Wu-Shu means "Martial Art". So technically you could have Kung-Fu over cooking or driving! And if you have Kung-Fu over Wushu, then you are a fighter.

Kung Fu means skill aquired in ,so yes you can have kung fu in cooking=chef kung fu in many things. Wu Shu means War Art ,but it's known as the performance based stuff that Jet Li and Jackie Chan does.

I have been taking Kung Fu for less than 8 months. So I'm not a master at all. Also, what I know about Kung Fu depends on where I train.

Very smart answer!

That being said, in my opinion there are two major "holes" or "weaknesses" in Kung Fu, which might be responsible for why we don't see Kung Fu practitioners in UCF or Boshido.

There are alot more than two ,but this is YOUR opinion.

1) Although Kung Fu encourages you to develop ways to keep the off the ground, and keep your oponent away, if you somehow ARE forced down on the ground, Kung-Fu has little to offer in terms of joint-locks, grappling and ground fighting (again this is based on MY limited exposure to Kung Fu).

Well, since i have a little more experience in Chinese martial arts ,i'll reply to this.

Kung Fu or CMA (chinese martial arts) has alot of grappling styles and techniques. You have some styles of CMA that are only ground fighting. These styles while rare and hard to find these days ,are still around. In Monkey Style kung fu you have a entire sub set devoted to ground fighting and ground fighting techniques.

Chin Na (Qin Na,Kum Na) is chinese joint locking,grappling, and throws.

Shuai Chiao is chines wrestling

All CMA styles have these elements in them ,some choose not to focus on then while others focus very little on them.

I agree that many CMA styles don't focus on grappling and ground fighting like they should ,but it's not the style that's lacking. It's the people that feel the ground and grappling are not important ,so they don't learn or teach that aspect of kung fu.

2) Most Kung Fu facilities do not have "no-holds-barred" fighting. I think the best way to become a good fighter is (unfortunately) experience. So if you learn to balance your self in hard stances, and can chop thru 10 pieces of cement, you still won't be comfortable in an actual fight. Many places have sparring with strict rules and protective equipment, and thats a good start, but that limits you from doing any open-handed techniques and it doesn't really feel "real". For example, in Judo, when you get flung around, or when you grapple, you learn to balance yourself when there is another ALIVE person trying to take you off-balance, which is far more practical and useful than balancing yourself on one toe for an hour, without facing any dynamic opposition.

I agree with you pretty much here ,but there are reasons why most kung fu schools operate this way.

No! it's not the my style is too dangerous to practice crap ppl say all the time. One reason is that many sifu give ppl what they want. Most ppl come in want some training and a belt/sash and are happy. Is that right? HELL NO!! ,but if they did'nt many could'nt afford a living.

The next reason is that it's just recent that so many ppl have been willing to do the type of training that you see done in MMA and Bjj schools. That is still a low percentage when it comes to the total number of ppl learning martial arts. Most ppl just don't want to work that hard so they go to schools where they don't have to.

How many ppl are going to pay money to sit in horse stance for the first 3-6 months of their training? Very few!! People want to do what they see done in kung fu movies ,they don't want to spend the time going through the basics. Also people see the movies and think kung fu is flashy and fun. It's not!! It's alot of hard work ,and takes time to perfect. As the times change i think you're going to see kung fu schools go back to the old school methods. It just takes time like it took people time to come back to grappling. Grappling is nothing new ,but when strikers were able to defeat them with ease ppl changed to striking. It's a continueous circle.

So the reason we see people from other non-KungFu martial arts in Championships is that Kung-Fu is not very focused on down and dirty struggling, and even after achieving a black belt, a practitioner might find himself inadequately prepared to fight all-out.

That is not the case or reason.

That fact is that just like on forums and chat rooms. People are not always what they claim to be. Yeah there are some ppl in those early events that got their butts handed to them by MMA and BJJ people. But in most of those fights the winner was just plain better prepared ,and a better fighter. The style had very little to do with it. Then like i said not many strikers trained to fight grapplers the prepared for other strikers.

In today's UFC/Pride/NHB fights no one with just one style of training is going to survive. These guys are trained pros they use a lot of speciallized training. You don't see BJJ ppl running these fights anymore because things evolve. You need the stand up and the ground work. One without the other is not going to get it.

jeff

[Londo Molari]

Hey!! Thanks for your reply!

My priorities now are to identify CMAs that show you how to keep the fight off the ground...or how to fight on the ground... otherwise I'll have to take ju-jitsu after i'm done with kung-fu.

[jmd161]

Hey!! Thanks for your reply!

No problem anytime!

My priorities now are to identify CMAs that show you how to keep the fight off the ground...or how to fight on the ground... otherwise I'll have to take ju-jitsu after i'm done with kung-fu.

Well....... good luck in your search.

To be honest ,it's alot easier for an experienced grappler to take you down ,than for you to avoid being taken down. While you can learn different anti-grappling takedown techniques ,you still need to understand your techniques enough ,to know what you can and can not use while on the ground.

Just because a striker goes to the ground ,it does not mean he can't strike from that postion. I use to wrestle and do roll with MMA and Bjj ppl ,so i have some experience with the ground and submissions,sweeps,guard etc...

My sifu has only done kung fu his entire life ,and has no problem handling himself from the ground. When you know your body and the principles,concepts,and therioes of fighting ,it does'nt matter where you fight from ,you'll be effective.

jeff

[Londo Molari]

Thanks again... thats very comforting advice.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Wu-Shu means "Combined Art"

Sorry but I know a few chinese/japanese characters and Wu is the same character as Bu in jjapanese, the Bu from Budo or Bu jitsu

Actually Wu shu reads the same as Bu jitsu so it is Martial Art

So nice try but here you are..... WRONG!

see www.yijiaowushu.com/sliced_images/wu-shu.gif for the characters

[guy incognito]

I don't think kung fu translates well to ring sport for several reasons.The fact that a lot of open hand tech. cannot be used with gloves.A lot of kung fu is not a visually spectacular sport i.e combos are often to fast to see and therefore wont score correctly.And there is not a well established tournament culture in kung fu.(So students are not often exposed to tournaments) Also K.F is more focussed on effective tech. rather than what looks good or what works well in competition.(Often what works well for tournaments will be next to useless in an actual fight.)
So it is because of this lack of tournament exposure that people believe K.F to be inneffective in actual combat.IMHO

[sherwinc]

Sorry but I know a few chinese/japanese characters and Wu is the same character as Bu in jjapanese, the Bu from Budo or Bu jitsu

Actually Wu shu reads the same as Bu jitsu so it is Martial Art

So nice try but here you are..... WRONG!

see www.yijiaowushu.com/sliced_images/wu-shu.gif for the characters

i thought that Wu-Shu means "Combined Art" cause when communist spreads to China, by the time they gathered all important patterns of kungfu that are left on that country, (since almost all of good kungfu went to other countries) flowery patterns of kungfu, a COMBINATION of all acrobatic/flowery movements.....

COMBINATION = combined = Combined Art = WuShu = combination of all flowery/acrobatic movements art

Note:

Speaking of FOOD....

When it comes to a Party, plenty of Food, since you are late, the only food for you is LEFT OVERS........

so.... WuShu is like those of "Left Over Food" .... since good kungfu's is not found in China

[sherwinc]

Kung Fu means skill aquired in ,so yes you can have kung fu in cooking=chef kung fu in many things. Wu Shu means War Art ,but it's known as the performance based stuff that Jet Li and Jackie Chan does.

I thought Jet Li is one of the Examples of a WUSHU- emphasize more on Northern KungFu
Note:
with acrobatic, purely using of Feet Attacks

while Bruce Lee and Jacky Chan is one of the Examples of a KUNGFU - emphasize more on Southern KungFu
Note:
no acrobatic, purely using of Hand Attacks

Very smart answer!

There are alot more than two ,but this is YOUR opinion.



Well, since i have a little more experience in Chinese martial arts ,i'll reply to this.

Kung Fu or CMA (chinese martial arts) has alot of grappling styles and techniques. You have some styles of CMA that are only ground fighting. These styles while rare and hard to find these days ,are still around. In Monkey Style kung fu you have a entire sub set devoted to ground fighting and ground fighting techniques.

Chin Na (Qin Na,Kum Na) is chinese joint locking,grappling, and throws.

Shuai Chiao is chines wrestling

All CMA styles have these elements in them ,some choose not to focus on then while others focus very little on them.

I agree that many CMA styles don't focus on grappling and ground fighting like they should ,but it's not the style that's lacking. It's the people that feel the ground and grappling are not important ,so they don't learn or teach that aspect of kung fu.



I agree with you pretty much here ,but there are reasons why most kung fu schools operate this way.

No! it's not the my style is too dangerous to practice crap ppl say all the time. One reason is that many sifu give ppl what they want. Most ppl come in want some training and a belt/sash and are happy. Is that right? HELL NO!! ,but if they did'nt many could'nt afford a living.

The next reason is that it's just recent that so many ppl have been willing to do the type of training that you see done in MMA and Bjj schools. That is still a low percentage when it comes to the total number of ppl learning martial arts. Most ppl just don't want to work that hard so they go to schools where they don't have to.

Supreme Ultimately True!!!!!!

This is quote is a good example of a true Non-Commercialized KungFu

How many ppl are going to pay money to sit in horse stance for the first 3-6 months of their training? Very few!! People want to do what they see done in kung fu movies ,they don't want to spend the time going through the basics. Also people see the movies and think kung fu is flashy and fun. It's not!! It's alot of hard work ,and takes time to perfect. As the times change i think you're going to see kung fu schools go back to the old school methods. It just takes time like it took people time to come back to grappling. Grappling is nothing new ,but when strikers were able to defeat them with ease ppl changed to striking. It's a continueous circle.

jeff

my instructor said that some of the best instructors there in KongHan - they playing Mahjong while sitting on a Kia Be Se (Horse Riding Stance)

for us, we have no exercise like body conditioning, neck twisting, side bending, jogging, skipping rope, we have not that kind of exercise.....
we do Horse Riding Stance starting from 5minutes up to 12minutes.....
then we do Knuckle Push-up (push-up position only) from 6minutes and so on.....
we do training for almost 10 years of practice.....

push-up positions and horse riding stance then towel for sweat glands, then the kungfu drills and weaponry and sparring.....

Note:
if you cannot resist Horse riding stance and Push-up position (majority they last for 7 days then they stop training kungfu and switch to another club) you better not a candidate to learn kungfu

[sherwinc]

I don't think kung fu translates well to ring sport for several reasons.The fact that a lot of open hand tech. cannot be used with gloves.A lot of kung fu is not a visually spectacular sport i.e combos are often to fast to see and therefore wont score correctly.And there is not a well established tournament culture in kung fu.(So students are not often exposed to tournaments) Also K.F is more focussed on effective tech. rather than what looks good or what works well in competition.(Often what works well for tournaments will be next to useless in an actual fight.)
So it is because of this lack of tournament exposure that people believe K.F to be inneffective in actual combat.IMHO

Very True.....

and most of the kungfu hand attacks is all foul to the referree's decision....

[Toudiyama[NL]]

I thought Jet Li is one of the Examples of a WUSHU- emphasize more on Northern KungFu
Note:
with acrobatic, purely using of Feet Attacks

while Bruce Lee and Jacky Chan is one of the Examples of a KUNGFU - emphasize more on Southern KungFu
Note:
no acrobatic, purely using of Hand Attacks

Well actually Jackie Chan is a product of the chinese opera hence the acrobatics and outragious stunts he does himself

[sherwinc]

Well actually Jackie Chan is a product of the chinese opera hence the acrobatics and outragious stunts he does himself

if we won't include the acrobatics and outragioius stunts of Jackie Chan, then most of his KungFu is all Southern KungFu category which means - very far to call it WuShu.......

[Toudiyama[NL]]

if we won't include the acrobatics and outragioius stunts of Jackie Chan, then most of his KungFu is all Southern KungFu category which means - very far to call it WuShu.......

That I cannot judge, I can only tell you he learned his "KF"skills at the opera, he doesn't mention any other training
I do not know what MA they teach at the opera

[guy incognito]

I think jakie knows ellements of both northern and southern KF systems.

[sherwinc]

I think jakie knows ellements of both northern and southern KF systems.

when i see most of his old chinese films..... his Snake KungFu is purely Southern Style KungFu, as well as his DrunkenBoxing, AngKa KungFu, Choy Lee Fut, WingChun and even his Five Animals KungFu

Note:
since southern KungFu uses mostly prioritizing hand attacks rather than feet

Bruce Lee's KungFu mostly is Southern KungFu

The Wong Fei Hung of Jet Lee is a good example of a Northern KungFu