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Why is Kung Fu not considered to be truly effective in actual combat?
This has managed to evolve into a discussion about stances, but horse stance and punching from the waste sucks and doesnt work. It does work, peroid.
Low stances have one advantage. Good balance and low center of weight, which is pretty good against grappling but bye bye mobility and kicking. Look up Joe Lewis (the karate guy, not boxer) from the 60's and 70's. He fought in a full contact karate tournament against a traditional shotokan guy and moved like a boxer. The shotokan guy couldn't catch him and every time he charged lewis, he would move and fire like a boxer.
The hip chambering and stiff punching has got to go though.
Sometimes, some TMA teachers are being too "traditional" without even knowing the meaning. Hence, the the training method is passed as an way of ignorance and just for the sake of tradition, making them irrelevant for current situation.
Okay, the horse stance is a good way to strengthen legs and forcing blood circulations of the body. However, there are also alternatives for leg training now. The horse stance is practically useful in fight? Yes, in the old times when you fight on a horse that makes you required to do all attacks and defense from this position.
(On a side note, high kicks in TKD were designed and are especially useful to fight people on horse. I am wondering if many Taekwondoin actually know about this.)
For urban fighting, one-to-one or one-to-many, mobility is also important because we actually do the mobility moves ourselves and not the horse. Of course, you all know that lower stance is more solid while higher stance is more mobile. So, if you are a big guy and is solid enough, you can always work on a higher stance. If you are fast enough and need to be more solid, use a lower stance.
Nowadays, horse stance is useful only as a foundation; the very basic to strengthen your legs and teaching how to throw the most basic punch.
The moral is nothing is set on the stone; even for TMAs. The forms are transmitted in a very formal manner because they contain the experiences the previous masters have got and they need to make sure that these will be transmitted in the correct manner. Students need to break them down and make a full usage of them according to their experiences and understanding. Hence, the practical usage of TMAs are all approximations (don't tell me that you are really pulling your hand to your waist before you punch in a real fight). In addition, you should be able to create new forms (if you wish) of your style, based on your experiences.
if 0% doesn't come from the waist, 100% does come from the waist and I don't think you meant to say that, did you?
example:
if i execute a double push forward for you to bump your back to the sharp wall at your back, now, my second movement is(whatever).... (my fist doesnt comes from my waist instead, it comes from the forward of my chest)
I think what sherwinc wants to say is the first attack (the coy attack) will come from whatever positions the hands were. After the opponent has been distracted and an opportunity comes along, the real full power attack will come from the waist level.
The problem with kung fu is too many things to even mention in a single post.
Nothingness,
As far as the horse stance goes you're a bit off on that ,your words were.
Nowadays, horse stance is useful only as a foundation; the very basic to strengthen your legs and teaching how to throw the most basic punch.
Horse stance training is used for alot more than foundation. The training ,if done properly also is very useful for fighting with your legs. You can use your legs while attacking or defending to trap someones legs and take them down or even break the leg. But this is why most kung fu stylist suffer these days ,so much technique and understanding is not being transfered to new generations.
Ah, the beauty of Sam Chien
I think what sherwinc wants to say is the first attack (the coy attack) will come from whatever positions the hands were.
Extremely Correct, Absolutely Right!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by Nothingness
After the opponent has been distracted and an opportunity comes along, the real full power attack will come from the waist level.
Do I get it right?
No, it doesnt always come from a waist level, but, almost all attacks comes from whatever positions the hands were....... according to what figure, form that you execute.......
it looks like a continuous form with no beginning and no ending once you start attacking/defending.........
Here's a post from a thread i started at another forum ,it explains a little of what i mean.
Learning forms in Traditional Chinese martial arts.
There are many ways to learn forms within CMA. Some are taught the actual form with all the moves ,and then they go back and break down each technique. Others are taught a series of techniques first ,they then drill and work applications of those techniques ,then put them altogether to complete the form.
I have learned and been taught many different ways to teach or learn a form. For me i prefer the method of drilling and applying them ,then putting everything together. But not every method works for everyone ,so that is why there are other methods being used. What i have noticed though is ,that the forms are slowly losing their translation ,no matter what method you use.
By this i mean when i see forms performed these days ,they're done at one pace with little change in flavor throught the movements. By this happening it shows me that people are not teaching,learning,translating or performing forms right. Very few forms in cma are done with the same flavor and power generation throught the entire form. There is usually a tension technique or section in a form where the flavor of the form changes. Wheteher it be the form slows down at that point or you see a ,sudden burst of speed or power.
These sometimes subtle or explovise changes in the form are there for a reason. But if they are being left out whether on purpose or by accident ,they cause a problem in full translation of a form and it's techniques. That now means that some of the techniques in a form used to build certain things ,are now not being done ,thus the person never developes that part of the technique or body that was suppose to be trained.
Forms are a good way to teach a series of many techniques at one time ,but forms do more than that when taught properly. If a form is done right it shows you proper alignment,flavor,technique,application,power generation, and many other things. But when a form is not taught properly ,it can cancel out alot of those things ,and become little more than a dance.
A form done and taught properly is a great way to learn techniques when your teacher is not around. Because it teaches the proper movement,techniques,and flavor. Then after understanding the form inside out ,you then fit the techniques that fit your own flavor and personal style ,into your skill set. Or you make changes to the techniques that fit you or work better for you. A form is not set in stone as something you have to follow technique for technique move for move to fight with.
A form is a guide to show you how to have your techniques flow in movement ,so that you are not choppy in your movements ,but smooth from one to the next. Forms when taught right show you angles of attack and defense. But it is up to each person to disect the forms and find what fits them ,and train them until it is second nature. Many people misunderstand forms and with people teaching forms improperly ,that only leads to more misunderstanding and transfering of bad techniques.
That is why we as students and teachers or hobbiest need to pay close attention to what's being taught,learned or transfered to others. Because those of us that teach lead to students not developing proper technique,power or many other things. Then those of us that are students are not really informed or prepared with real effective techniques or training. Because when you are in a fight to protect yourself or family ,it's not the time to find out ,what you learned was flawed or lacking.
Horse stance training is used for alot more than foundation. The training ,if done properly also is very useful for fighting with your legs. You can use your legs while attacking or defending to trap someones legs and take them down or even break the leg. But this is why most kung fu stylist suffer these days ,so much technique and understanding is not being transfered to new generations.
Maybe we have different concepts on "horse stance"? I was refering to the stance where your legs are on your 9 and 3 o'clock while you are facing your 12 o'clock. If you are refering to the horse stance where one leg is in front of you and one leg is rear you, then yes, it is very effective for the leg locking. In fact, it's a very foundation of my style, too.
Maybe we have different concepts on "horse stance"? I was refering to the stance where your legs are on your 9 and 3 o'clock while you are facing your 12 o'clock. If you are refering to the horse stance where one leg is in front of you and one leg is rear you, then yes, it is very effective for the leg locking. In fact, it's a very foundation of my style, too.
No, We are speaking of the same stance. Yes arrow (Bow & Arrow) stance can be used for trapping and locking legs ,but so can horse stance. Also by shifting into a deep horse stance ,you can use it as a takedown or throw. Not to mention the different Kum Na (Qin Na,Chin Na) takedowns and throws used by sinking into a deep horse stance.
There are machines that help to do things today ,but some muscles can only be worked the old fashioned way.
I agree on the takedown, qin na, etc. I just wouldn't personally try to fight someone from that position.
Machines usually work on positive resistance. I agree that some muscles need to be worked out using negative resistance as in stance training. While stance is good to train stance itself since negative resistance is used when you keep your body relatively low, I somehow think that jing development needs some positive resistance training, too.
I am interested in knowing your thought about this. Please advise me. Thanks.
BTW, I also notice from your website that you are working on the stones, too (we call it ciok so).
Maybe we have different concepts on "horse stance"? I was refering to the stance where your legs are on your 9 and 3 o'clock while you are facing your 12 o'clock. If you are refering to the horse stance where one leg is in front of you and one leg is rear you, then yes, it is very effective for the leg locking. In fact, it's a very foundation of my style, too.
You are referring to the Stance of WingChun and NgoChoKun and it is extremely Correct!!!!!!! It is one of my favorite and one of important stance
while.....
ChiDianBun doesnt have that kind of trapping stance like that instead..... its both knees are facing towards the opponent, and since its a Northern Version of KungFu - the Leading Toe is pointing upward
Note:
In every KungFu, i am convinced that there are disadvantages/advantages on every KungFu Style/Systems...... to hide the weakness and advantages.... the more the System/Style is not familiar to the public the most better........
I agree on the takedown, qin na, etc. I just wouldn't personally try to fight someone from that position.
No, you don't fight from the stance ,you have to know how to slide or shift into the stance.
Machines usually work on positive resistance. I agree that some muscles need to be worked out using negative resistance as in stance training. While stance is good to train stance itself since negative resistance is used when you keep your body relatively low, I somehow think that jing development needs some positive resistance training, too.
I am interested in knowing your thought about this. Please advise me. Thanks.
Well, the stance training helps with rooting ,learning how to breath into the ground ,and drawing up yin energy. I think that ppl need to understand what jing is ,today most ppl really don't have an idea what jing is.
BTW, I also notice from your website that you are working on the stones, too (we call it ciok so).
No, We are speaking of the same stance. Yes arrow (Bow & Arrow) stance can be used for trapping and locking legs ,but so can horse stance. Also by shifting into a deep horse stance ,you can use it as a takedown or throw. Not to mention the different Kum Na (Qin Na,Chin Na) takedowns and throws used by sinking into a deep horse stance.
jeff
Correct!!!!!!
This is one of the Kicking Moves of Tai Chi Chuan, i use that very offenly in sparring when using Tai Chi Chuan then interchange with rapid hand strikes to the head, then grappling moves while in a Lutos Stance to destroy opponents legs, then from Lutos Stance or Knee-Legged Stance execute quicky a Jumping Inside RoundHouse Kick follow-up with a Double Jumping Frontal Kick ( two frontal kicks in a one jump action, since i cant do 3front kicks in a one jump action = the target of those three front kicks is all in solar plexus or solar plexus area), then while the feet touches on the ground simultaenously execute another rapid hand attacks to the torso of the opponent....
note:
since torso is easier to hit than the head........
that is the way i sparr..... a combinations of all kungfu advantages learned.....
if i execute a double push forward for you to bump your back to the sharp wall at your back, now, my second movement is(whatever).... (my fist doesnt comes from my waist instead, it comes from the forward of my chest)
my English is very poor, right?
the example wasn't needed, I understood what you meant but you wrote down the opposite, either the 0% or the doesn't was a typo
the dact of the matter is that the elbow does start from the side no matter what ( during straitline punches and in that KF ( even yours) doesn't differ from karate during basics the hand is pulled tothe side but training should tach that it is actually the body doing the pulling
this is done because beginners tend to focus on the extremities instead of the body, by pulling the hand to be pulled to the side the body is foced to move with it
I tended to skip basics for weeks in a row ( the traditional that is) and work from a fighting posture ( rear hand near elbow of fronthand) but had to correct the body seperately, this I didn't have to do when working in a traditional way ( or any other way where I pulled the hand to the side)
Somehow I don't think this is much diffeent in Wu zu quan/Ngo cho kun
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