CMA in reality vs. UFC rules

[bbbb]

this post is dedicated to all the UFC wannabes, so there

UFC rules, as approved by the Nevada State Athletic Commission – July 23, 2001

Weight classes:

Lightweight – over 145 lbs. to 155 lbs.
Welterweight – over 155 lbs. to 170 lbs.
Middleweight – over 170 lbs. to 185 lbs.
Light Heavyweight – over 185 lbs. to 205 lbs.
Heavyweight – over 205 lbs. to 265 lbs.
Bout duration:

All non-championship bouts shall be three rounds.
All championship bouts shall be five rounds.
Rounds will be five minutes in duration, with a one minute.
A one-minute rest period will occur between each round
Fouls:

Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind. (this prohibits any kind of advanced eye gouging techniques found in most Chinese styles)
Biting.
Hair pulling. (again prohibits some of the most lethal techniques such as twisting or breaking the neck)
Fish hooking. (prohibits many effective eagle and tiger claw techniques)
Groin attacks of any kind. (prohibits many effective testicle kicks found in karate and kung fu)
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation. (prohibits a vast array of chin na techniques)
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea. (again, this prohibits a large number of techniques, some of which are very important in Chinese martial arts, such as the fok sau of wing chun, or the eagle claw techniques used on the throat)
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. (this would render most tiger and eagle claw styles useless)
Grabbing the clavicle. (a very effective chin na technique)
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Spitting at an opponent.
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
Holding the ropes or the fence.
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
Interference by the corner.
Throwing in the towel during competition.
Ways to win:

Submission by:
Physical tap out.
Verbal tap out.
Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
Decision via the scorecards, including:
Unanimous decision.
Split decision.
Majority decision.
Draw, including:
Unanimous draw.
Majority draw.
Split draw.
Technical decision.
Technical draw.
Disqualification.
Forfeit.
No contest.

As you can see by looking thru the above, half the techniques that are found in traditional martial arts are prohibited, not because they do not work, but because they are too effective in damaging the opponent and removing his ability to fight, often causing permanent or at least crippling injury. Despite all this, UFC related styles are sold as “real fighting” and traditional styles are mocked and viewed as systems containing mostly useless techniques. The fact that many traditional styles lost in these tournaments makes things worse, leading high school wrestlers to believe they could beat any black belt. Yet how can you expect a fighter to win when the focus of his martial art is almost completely prohibited.
So, as far as I’m concerned, the traditional arts of China remain the more reality based fighting art...

So we can't push from behind the clavicle, with the thumb, through to your opposite foot...damnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!

BTW- what is this move CALLED!?!

[Poon Q]

Some people...

I feel bad for some of you people. I would have to say that kung fu is one of the most under estimated styles around. I think we have all agreed that kung fu would stand a chance in UFC. It would help conditioning wise though. UFC is an attack situation most of the time. Kung fu is self defense. Sure it has strikes with which you could just attack somebody not expecting it. It is self defense. I feel that if you are not in kung fu. Have never learned kung fu. Do not even attempt to comment on it. Like any style, there will be the good and bad practitioners. Kung fu is meant to be very lethal or crippling at the least .. As I recognized some one else posted that. Also, someone else was saying something about friends jumping in if you ripped homeboys nuts off. Let me ask you. This is important to kung fu. The mental aspect. If one of your friends fought me on the street. If I broke, dislocated, knocked out, or even killed him in a very small amount of time. Would you even think about fighting me after that. Something called intimidation would seriously affect you at that point. I will not clown on any styles (except tae kwon do), I do dislike certain styles. I just think that a lot of the people in here don't know anything about kf. .......

I am an 8th gen. practioner of choy li fut kung fu. grandmaster is fifth generation today.

[Tom Yum]

I feel bad for some of you people. I would have to say that kung fu is one of the most under estimated styles around. I think we have all agreed that kung fu would stand a chance in UFC. It would help conditioning wise though. UFC is an attack situation most of the time. Kung fu is self defense. Sure it has strikes with which you could just attack somebody not expecting it. It is self defense. I feel that if you are not in kung fu. Have never learned kung fu. Do not even attempt to comment on it. Like any style, there will be the good and bad practitioners. Kung fu is meant to be very lethal or crippling at the least .. As I recognized some one else posted that. Also, someone else was saying something about friends jumping in if you ripped homeboys nuts off. Let me ask you. This is important to kung fu. The mental aspect. If one of your friends fought me on the street. If I broke, dislocated, knocked out, or even killed him in a very small amount of time. Would you even think about fighting me after that. Something called intimidation would seriously affect you at that point. I will not clown on any styles (except tae kwon do), I do dislike certain styles. I just think that a lot of the people in here don't know anything about kf. .......

I am an 8th gen. practioner of choy li fut kung fu. grandmaster is fifth generation today.

I think one of the biggest concerns is the time it takes to be able to use kung fu as a realistic form of self defense. If you've been practicing for 20 years, you probably have really fast movements, great timing and power and could probably knock a fellow cold and mess him up.

How about the kung-fu fellow who's been practicing for only 6 months and is working on his forms as much as he is chi breathing and choreographed self-defense techniques?

Compared to a fellow whose been sparring in boxing or muaythai 3 days out of the week for the past 5 out of 6 months or the jujitsu guy whose been grappling for the same amount of time - all against partners who are coming at them with the intentions of hitting them or taking them down.

If you take both students with 6 months experience in kung-fu and muay thai, boxing or jujitsu you would find that the non-kung fu guys will probably be in better fighting condition, not flinch as much under fire and be able to hit back. I'm just trying to compare 2 students in the arts, with the same experience and different training emphasis.

Sanshou or shuaijiao might be comparable fighting styles in the Chinese systems.

I don't doubt kung-fu's effectiveness and neither TKD's, because there are some people in these styles that can fight really well and very fiercly, but it seems like it takes a long time to get there that's all.

[Poon Q]

I agree.

First off. You are the only person in here that I would listen too. I definitely agree. I agree as much as I hate to admit it. I have only been in kung fu for a little while. I am definitely a beginner. I Knew from the day I started it would take time until I could utilize my knowledge of the style. I would not change that though. I am all about the respect and honor side. I would much rather be in kung fu forever and understand the way a person will move and react in a fight as opposed to being in a different style and being able to punch somebody or just kick after only a short amount of time. I respect my style. I respect all styles. all will have ups and downs

[Tom Yum]

First off. You are the only person in here that I would listen too. I definitely agree. I agree as much as I hate to admit it. I have only been in kung fu for a little while. I am definitely a beginner. I Knew from the day I started it would take time until I could utilize my knowledge of the style. I would not change that though. I am all about the respect and honor side. I would much rather be in kung fu forever and understand the way a person will move and react in a fight as opposed to being in a different style and being able to punch somebody or just kick after only a short amount of time. I respect my style. I respect all styles. all will have ups and downs

Good! Sounds like you know what you want out of your MA training and aren't afraid to go in that direction.

[BoarSpear]

I think one of the biggest concerns is the time it takes to be able to use kung fu as a realistic form of self defense. If you've been practicing for 20 years, you probably have really fast movements, great timing and power and could probably knock a fellow cold and mess him up.

How about the kung-fu fellow who's been practicing for only 6 months and is working on his forms as much as he is chi breathing and choreographed self-defense techniques?

Compared to a fellow whose been sparring in boxing or muaythai 3 days out of the week for the past 5 out of 6 months or the jujitsu guy whose been grappling for the same amount of time - all against partners who are coming at them with the intentions of hitting them or taking them down.

If you take both students with 6 months experience in kung-fu and muay thai, boxing or jujitsu you would find that the non-kung fu guys will probably be in better fighting condition, not flinch as much under fire and be able to hit back. I'm just trying to compare 2 students in the arts, with the same experience and different training emphasis.

Sanshou or shuaijiao might be comparable fighting styles in the Chinese systems.

I don't doubt kung-fu's effectiveness and neither TKD's, because there are some people in these styles that can fight really well and very fiercly, but it seems like it takes a long time to get there that's all.

Just kiddin man, That is the Truth though, no matter how bad the Cma people dont wanna hear it. If you grow up training in the Cma's by the time you're an adult, they will be useful for self defense...before that they will probably do alright in schoolyard fights but thats about it

In the beginning, with even training time and matched ability, the boxer, wrestler, or grappler will beat the CMA guy every time... that does change after the 15-20 years it takes to become proficient though.

[konghan]

There are different training approach:
1. training for ring competition
2. training for practical self defense
3. training for health purposes
4. training for mastery of the style

*Training to compete in competition the most important thing is to work on stamina, conditioning and endurance. Without that it will be impossible to execute proper techniques and stay focus. The second part is to understand the rules of the competition concentrate training on legal techniques, points have the same importance as scoring a knockout.

*Training for practical self defense require proper use of simple and effective techniques. Groin strike, eye gouge, use of clawing, kicking the knees, identifying threats, avoiding threats, presence of mind, etc.

*Health training; most people who are in their 40s train mainly for health purposes therefore training will be lighter and concentrate more on light cardio, posture and flexibility through the forms.

*The toughest training is to train to be a master of a particular style. This training encompasses all of the above.

Kung fu have many styles and each styles have their own principle of training.

In a amature ring tournament the rules are punching, kicking, sweeping, elbows and knees on body armour area only and takedowns.

Fighters wear boxing gloves, helmet, groin protectors and shin pads. Techniques become limited, punching the body will be useless because of the gloves and body armour the tendency now is to punch the head. So now it becomes kickboxing, for me IMOHO many kung fu styles do not know how to apply their styles in ring tournament, take away all those restriction you will probably see them fight the way their style teach them weather it is powerful or not depends on their level of training and skill.

To apply kung fu styles in ring tournament is also possible because the rules and techniques that are allowed in ring tournaments are actually simple making training also simple.

Every kung fu styles has their own punching & kicking principle taking the punching and kicking and train on them to be effective in a ring tournament is one way. The same in takedowns, all kung fu styles have takedown techniques pick out two or three of the best takedown techniques and concentrate training on them with a partner.

Once the punching, kicking and takedown techniques have been picked start to put together a series of legitimate combinations that is allowed at the tournament.

Concentrate training on those and then when ready start sparring applying those techniques keep on sparring with different partners until those techniques becomes natural.

In regards to UFC since many people have high priase for it, I have nothing against it, UFC is just another form of MMA with fighting rules. The rules in UFC are 75% in favor of grappling becuase the 5 minute uninterrupted rule gives the grappler sufficient time to work around his opponent to execute a submission. On the other hand the striker is not allowed to hit the back. One important training principle in martial art when in fighting is not to expose your back to your opponent and that holds true too in a grappling situation.

In UFC a striker is not allowed to strike at the back of his opponent and yet the grappler is allowed to attack his opponent when his back is turn allowing the grappler to execute back submission techniques.

A striker with limited legitimate target is now force to fight like the grappler. Grapplers are confident in diving for the legs because they know that a striker cannot hit him at the back a striker can only hit front of the body allowing a grappler to expect and be ready to grab a frontal attack by covering up.

Nonetheless, it is still possible for kung fu fighters to compete in that kind of environment they just have to adjust their training. Going on a defensive and counter attacking is one effective technique, donot grapple quickly get away from a hold instead of trying to fight it. Concentrate on developing powerful-penetrating strikes with accuracy on strikes. AIm for the body rib and heart-chest area the legs strike the inside and have good combination to keep your opponent off balance. Strikes must be powerful enough that your opponent will feel it either get stun or get injured. A powerful strike will make your opponent loose his concentration and unable to execute his technique. A weak strike will only allow your opponent to keep pushing in for grappling attacks.

That is why every ring tournament has its own set of rules, a UFC fighter will have difficulty in a san shou format becuase of the 3 seconds takedown execution limit plus the resetting of takedowns within 3 seconds. The same in a MT atmosphere, UFC fighters will have to train harder on their striking if not they will get smash by MT round house and knee strikes.

Kung fu has its own tournament which is san shou and that is what most kung fu schools have concentrated their training on, UFC are for UFC, TKD for TKD, K1 for K1, Judo for Judo, san shou for san shou and so fort and so on in the end there is actually nothing to compare the only argument that exist will be among people who do not really understand what martial art really is all about.

[yentao]

When joining an ufc type match, it will be hard if you don't cross train with other martial art systems with different approach in fighting. Compare it to Ken Shamrock and Tito Ortiz fight, Tito ortiz cross train with different martial artist unlike Ken Shamrock who only trained with his guys at Lion's den.

Going in UFC without knowledge in fighting on the ground and some grappling will be way difficult.

That is why it is called MMA.
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Fighting with rules that of UFC is hard for kung fu styles. Lots of limitations prevents the full use of it.

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Real fight however depends on how you trained.

[konghan]

IMO, I will not call it cross train I will concentrate on my style and I would spar with different martial artist including grapplers, wrestlers, MT applying and refining my technique, finding weaknesses on other style at the same time strengthening mine, this way I can preserve my martial identity.

[Jason DeLucia]

When joining an ufc type match, it will be hard if you don't cross train with other martial art systems with different approach in fighting. Compare it to Ken Shamrock and Tito Ortiz fight, Tito ortiz cross train with different martial artist unlike Ken Shamrock who only trained with his guys at Lion's den.

Going in UFC without knowledge in fighting on the ground and some grappling will be way difficult.

That is why it is called MMA.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fighting with rules that of UFC is hard for kung fu styles. Lots of limitations prevents the full use of it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Real fight however depends on how you trained.

it's interesting that when fred ettish -- a true karate man -- fought he said he wanted to do it again and he wouldn't change a thing .i think in his heart he knew that if properly honed his karate like any karate would be sufficient .but having generally experienced his style against other stand up karate men he was unable to adjust to ufc rules .i think what he envisioned was something like chuck liddell who can exist in this venue using basically only his stand up .but it could not have been achieved without first going through and understanding the ground game .

[BoarSpear]

it's interesting that when fred ettish -- a true karate man -- fought he said he wanted to do it again and he wouldn't change a thing .i think in his heart he knew that if properly honed his karate like any karate would be sufficient .but having generally experienced his style against other stand up karate men he was unable to adjust to ufc rules .i think what he envisioned was something like chuck liddell who can exist in this venue using basically only his stand up .but it could not have been achieved without first going through and understanding the ground game .

Well said...

[konghan]

it's interesting that when fred ettish -- a true karate man -- fought he said he wanted to do it again and he wouldn't change a thing .i think in his heart he knew that if properly honed his karate like any karate would be sufficient .but having generally experienced his style against other stand up karate men he was unable to adjust to ufc rules .i think what he envisioned was something like chuck liddell who can exist in this venue using basically only his stand up .but it could not have been achieved without first going through and understanding the ground game .

I guess the key word is "Rules", MT alone will not be enough in a UFC rules, UFC fighters will be no match in a MT rules, UFC will have difficulty in a San shou format, how about TKD UFC will be made useless in TKD rules and if in boxing....Tyson would easily knock any UFC fighter in a boxing match base boxing rules but in a UFC rules Tyson will be no match.