Tai Chi,good self-defense art or not?

[jubaji]

the very first National full contact matches held involving Taiji and Baqua were STOPPED in the middle due to numerous deaths and injuries.

Looking back, we never did get any definitive proof of this claim anyway...

[jubaji]

A tai chi practioner advanced enough to compete in the UFC wouldn't. It is never a practioner's goal to hurt someone.

One thing that makes it such an excelent self defense form is it's ability to neutralize a force and offset your opponinent with the option to counter-attack.

I know I have no way of ending this seemingly impossible argument, but it should not even be one.

Tai chi, for most westerners, is like yoga for most westerners. The average "western version" of the disciplines are tiny portions of the whole systems of thought.

Tai chi IS a martial art. there is no question. The misleading thing is that there are relatively very few teachers that are truley qualified to teach the entire art form. Which includes, but is not limited to: multiple hand forms, weapons forms, push hands (form and freestlye), sparing, chi gong, accupressure, message, and joint manipulation.

A Very brief HISTORY
In ancient China, the doctors were practioners of Chi Gong, a discipline intended, among other things, to open the internal systems and allow the flow chi(which translates as heat, blood, breath, energy, molecular vibration) throughout the body. In a time of social unrest, the practioners needed either an army, or a form of self defense to travel from village to village in order to see patients. From here Tai Chi Chaun was created. It was a fighting style that would embrace, and not conflict with their effeorts in Chi Gong. It was kept within the Chen family and eventually taught to several other familys( I cannot recall them all). These fammilys also kept it internally and passed it down through generations. Recently they have begun teaching the art form to outsiders in order to preserve it.

I hope this helps.

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[lucidmist]

I have to admit that I don't know a lot about tai chi chuan; I think the type I have learned is the moving meditation variety. I understand there are different varieties; Wikipedia says there are 5 styles. But anyway, if your intent is to learn a fighting art, why not just learn wing chun or some variety of wu shu? Why would people go to tai chi chuan to learn fighting skills? It seems there are better Chinese arts for fighting.

There were traditionally 5 styles (or schools), but I may be wrong. However, the schools were not exactly the "varieties" that you mentioned. The 5 schools were actually 5 different tai chi systems, and originally, all 5 were a combination of hard+soft. People got the misconception that only Chen school had the hard stuff. But from what I've been told, it all started out with the 5 schools having hard stuff in them.

AND it was in each of these 5 different schools that spawned different varieties, like the purely soft varieties, which could be based on one of the original 5 schools. There were also condensed and shortened versions of each school's original style. The 5 schools themselves were not varieties - they were watered down into varieties.

As for learning a fighting art, Tai Chi, originally, WAS a fighting art when it was first created. The Yang style's creator, Yang Lu Chan, was a skilled and experienced fighter and defeated many hard-styled opponents in his time with his Yang style Tai Chi. Of course, maybe he was already a tough nut to begin with, but we don't know. Or maybe someone made the story up, but I guess a school of martial arts would've had to have achieved some sort of reputation or competency to be able to even last a few years. These days we may be slamming many different styles of martial arts as weak, but who's to say the original founders were not competent fighters in their own styles, just because some schools of today have become watered down?

It is still possible to find schools that teach the hard+soft stuff, but getting difficult because the misconception that Tai Chi's weak and only for older folks has already been built. Hard to shake that off now.

I'm not sure how accurate the above info is, but a book I read that contained excerpts from China's own library on its culture (which included martial arts) had all these info (including Yang Lu Chan's fighting prowess, which tallied with what my late master had told me). Of course, many would say the historical documents were probably doctored. But I don't see a reason for them to be.

But IMO, there really is no such thing as the ultimate art. It's all about training and accumulated experience.

[jubaji]

I have to admit that I don't know a lot about tai chi chuan


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Why would people go to tai chi chuan to learn fighting skills? It seems there are better Chinese arts for fighting.

Hmmm......

[nathan rd]

...Bear in mind that there are two kinds of tai chi, the soft "moving meditation" version and the combat version that combines hard and soft....

I have to admit that I don't know a lot about tai chi chuan; I think the type I have learned is the moving meditation variety. I understand there are different varieties; Wikipedia says there are 5 styles. But anyway, if your intent is to learn a fighting art, why not just learn wing chun or some variety of wu shu? Why would people go to tai chi chuan to learn fighting skills? It seems there are better Chinese arts for fighting.

[lucidmist]

Lost Interview?

Bruce Lee said in the Lost Interview that Tai Chi Chuan was for the elderly only. As I have done some Tai Chi Chuan myself, I think it improves balance and reduces stress. It doesn't seem to offer much in terms of fighting technique, however. Track & field would offer more because at least there you can learn how to run and throw a javelin at someone.

hey, this isn't exactly a lost interview. my friends and i have seen it over 10 years ago.

anyway, i'm not sure if Bruce Lee is the best person to quote on Tai Chi.. I mean, he may have taken it up before, but that doesn't mean he's an authority. I found this other website that mentioned that he took up "performance" tai chi: http://www.dynamicbalancingtaichi.co...0Kune%20Do.htm

I'm guessing it's the soft form of tai chi Bruce learnt. Bear in mind that there are two kinds of tai chi, the soft "moving meditation" version and the combat version that combines hard and soft. And as mentioned before, I don't know if the combat version works, but years ago, not many people knew about the original, older combat versions. if it's the soft version you're talking about, where you've never been trained to kick or punch hard and fast, then definitely there's no way you can utilize that style in a combat situation - unless some other more knowledgeable person can prove otherwise. if it's the combat version, then come on, even if it's just basic training on deflecting, dodging and punching, definitely there's some use. unless you're talking about a fight between two supposed pros, then that needs to be looked at differently. during army days, the hand-to-hand combat techniques we learnt were few but effective. combat tai chi teaches more techniques than the army does. not saying it can make you fight better than a soldier, but there's definitely some use.

also, as mentioned before, in any combat situation, whatever training you've had or style you've learnt, personal physique, mental alertness and reflexes all come into play. the training you receive can only serve as opening your mind and body up into knowing how to react by instinct, hopefully in time, during a combat situation. if a punch connects, whether it's a left hook or right hook or uppercut, who cares what style it is. even IF in combat tai chi one gets to learn only one kind of deflect and one kind of punch, chances are there will be at least some use for that. your mind and reflexes and physique may be better than the opponent's, so it doesn't mean that if he has learnt a harder style or that he has learnt more techniques he will definitely win. there will always be odds in any fight.

[nathan rd]

Maybe I should also point out that Tai Chi Chuan was the first martial art that Bruce Lee took up. Finding it ineffective as a fighting art, he abandoned it and then went to Wing Chun, which he found to be work better in real fights.

[jubaji]

I'm gonna venture to guess you haven't actually learned much of taichiquan.

[nathan rd]

Bruce Lee said in the Lost Interview that Tai Chi Chuan was for the elderly only. As I have done some Tai Chi Chuan myself, I think it improves balance and reduces stress. It doesn't seem to offer much in terms of fighting technique, however. Track & field would offer more because at least there you can learn how to run and throw a javelin at someone.

[Red Rum]

Now you've gone and referenced yourself to a comic book character...



Here's "Red Rum" getting pumped up to take out the bad guys...

http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/7333/pictures02/cbg_flash.jpg

Go gettum red!

Hey my costume isn't red, it's blue!! It's supposed to be ironic.
Like the Blue Raja.....

[Tom Yum]

Did Spawn kill himself? No

Now you've gone and referenced yourself to a comic book character...

I aim to take the other evil guys out.

Here's "Red Rum" getting pumped up to take out the bad guys...

http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/7333/pictures02/cbg_flash.jpg

Go gettum red!

[Red Rum]

Would you take yourself out? y'a know since you're an evil bastard and all

Did Spawn kill himself?
No

I aim to take the other evil guys out and then someone will finish me I am sure
Hopefully a busty brunette..

[jubaji]

Red Rum, exactly, it was all small technique talk - for fun. and for that, i was criticized as sucking in life, egoistic, called a moron and many other names, when they don't even know me at all. those weren't opinions. they didn't have opinions on what was talked about in martial arts. they immediately launched personal and insulting attacks. was all that necessary?

looks like they were the ones taking it all a little too seriously to have reacted the way they did upon seeing my posts.

and i apologize to you and the other members for my last few extremely long posts (i'll ask the administrator to delete them). and for retaliating the way i did, degrading myself to their level. my mistake there. i don't say i've experienced more than many people in martial arts or fighting, but for what i did go through, my initial posts were valid, according to my experiences, but i never once said it was based on everyone. that is why forums are created - to share your own experiences. not for insulting people just cos you see something you don't like or don't agree with. you can debate on the posts, that's fine. but starting by insulting the people posting are downright unnecessary. a happy tag-team too. and most of the other sections i went to, they were attacking people and causing such rifes unnecessarily.

i can't see whatever they've posted this time round, and i don't intend to. they can spew whatever they want.

and note to jubaji and garland - there is NO insult nor sarcasm nor personal attack in this post of mine. the only way i could stop myself launching yet another attack back on you two was to put you on ignore so that i wouldn't be able to read your posts. i've already done my part to maturely end this. see if you can do the same. if you can't even stand this, then i tell you, attempting another insult on a forum proves nothing. if you want to prove you're better, or give yourselves the right to tell people to shut the "F" up, to keep people "in check" (like you said), or that you know more than others since you've dismissed many posts as rubbish and many members as morons, then go to the streets, challenge a few guys bigger sized than you every day, no rules, no referee, life and death, and write back when you're done. and even having done that all a million times, no one still has a right to make personal attacks and insults at anyone, cos you'll never know what that individual has really gone through, and that what you think you know, may be wrong.

if my very first post was that harsh for you, man, you should see all your own posts. i was replying to those posts that gave remarks like "bruce lee is shit he's a fake he's crap" and "taiji is trash it's shit it's crap". plain mindless dismissals with no constructively backing comments. my response may have been too forward, but i sure didn't start by "you f**king morons, get the f**k out you suck in life" and blah blah blah while adding nothing constructive. and i've already relented first already, by toning down the way i posted after that, that means i already gave in. but still, that was not enough for you. you just wanted to push it to the extreme. you can go on doing it, but like i said, i've done my part in making your posts non-readable to me. up to you if you wanna kick something up again.

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[Tom Yum]

The only difference is that I might take a few evil b*stards whilst I'm doing it

Would you take yourself out? y'a know since you're an evil bastard and all

[lucidmist]

Red Rum, exactly, it was all small technique talk - for fun. and for that, i was criticized as sucking in life, egoistic, called a moron and many other names, when they don't even know me at all. those weren't opinions. they didn't have opinions on what was talked about in martial arts. they immediately launched personal and insulting attacks. was all that necessary?

looks like they were the ones taking it all a little too seriously to have reacted the way they did upon seeing my posts.

and i apologize to you and the other members for my last few extremely long posts (i'll ask the administrator to delete them). and for retaliating the way i did, degrading myself to their level. my mistake there. i don't say i've experienced more than many people in martial arts or fighting, but for what i did go through, my initial posts were valid, according to my experiences, but i never once said it was based on everyone. that is why forums are created - to share your own experiences. not for insulting people just cos you see something you don't like or don't agree with. you can debate on the posts, that's fine. but starting by insulting the people posting are downright unnecessary. a happy tag-team too. and most of the other sections i went to, they were attacking people and causing such rifes unnecessarily.

i can't see whatever they've posted this time round, and i don't intend to. they can spew whatever they want.

and note to jubaji and garland - there is NO insult nor sarcasm nor personal attack in this post of mine. the only way i could stop myself launching yet another attack back on you two was to put you on ignore so that i wouldn't be able to read your posts. i've already done my part to maturely end this. see if you can do the same. if you can't even stand this, then i tell you, attempting another insult on a forum proves nothing. if you want to prove you're better, or give yourselves the right to tell people to shut the "F" up, to keep people "in check" (like you said), or that you know more than others since you've dismissed many posts as rubbish and many members as morons, then go to the streets, challenge a few guys bigger sized than you every day, no rules, no referee, life and death, and write back when you're done. and even having done that all a million times, no one still has a right to make personal attacks and insults at anyone, cos you'll never know what that individual has really gone through, and that what you think you know, may be wrong.

if my very first post was that harsh for you, man, you should see all your own posts. i was replying to those posts that gave remarks like "bruce lee is shit he's a fake he's crap" and "taiji is trash it's shit it's crap". plain mindless dismissals with no constructively backing comments. my response may have been too forward, but i sure didn't start by "you f**king morons, get the f**k out you suck in life" and blah blah blah while adding nothing constructive. and i've already relented first already, by toning down the way i posted after that, that means i already gave in. but still, that was not enough for you. you just wanted to push it to the extreme. you can go on doing it, but like i said, i've done my part in making your posts non-readable to me. up to you if you wanna kick something up again.