Why are traditional martial arts seen as "ineffective"?

[jubaji]

I was talking about the time before karate was introduce to the Americans. In fact during those days USA military hand to hand fighting training was about boxing.

That`s why most Europeans have a hard time fighting in hand to hand against asian people even against first nation people. The west relay too much on weapon technology like guns & cannons which is good military strategy.

Upon what do you base this odd claim?

[konghan]

Upon what do you base this odd claim?

There is nothing odd about it it is base on history books, from the day the first europeans set foot in south east asia.

The Spaniards used religion (god), guns & gold to conquered the Philippines. Take away their guns they are no match against the Filipino warriors.

The Aztecs warriors were gunned down one by one while they charge at the fortified Spanish forces.

In China, the English used guns, cannons, god & opium to try to colinized her. But they failed.

The Dutch used their long rang cannons to smash the chinese fortresses in Taiwan into submission.

And in many early European accounts regarding the "strange" vicious fighting warriors of the east.

India was conquered becuase the English succeeded in dividing them & making the different tribes fight each other plus the english also have the superior fire power in the form of guns & cannons with better range then what is available to the locals.

And it was the same thing here in North America, the guns & cannons of the Europeans proove to be too much for the natives to handle. But when they run out of ammunition thats` when they find themselves in trouble.

[sherwinc]

There is nothing odd about it it is base on history books, from the day the first europeans set foot in south east asia.

The Spaniards used religion (god), guns & gold to conquered the Philippines. Take away their guns they are no match against the Filipino warriors.

The Aztecs warriors were gunned down one by one while they charge at the fortified Spanish forces.

In China, the English used guns, cannons, god & opium to try to colinized her. But they failed.

The Dutch used their long rang cannons to smash the chinese fortresses in Taiwan into submission.

And in many early European accounts regarding the "strange" vicious fighting warriors of the east.

India was conquered becuase the English succeeded in dividing them & making the different tribes fight each other plus the english also have the superior fire power in the form of guns & cannons with better range then what is available to the locals.

And it was the same thing here in North America, the guns & cannons of the Europeans proove to be too much for the natives to handle. But when they run out of ammunition thats` when they find themselves in trouble.

and most of the boxing matches....... WHITES are always looses when they fought BLACKS

[jubaji]

There is nothing odd about it it is base on history books, from the day the first europeans set foot in south east asia.

The Spaniards used religion (god), guns & gold to conquered the Philippines. Take away their guns they are no match against the Filipino warriors.

The Aztecs warriors were gunned down one by one while they charge at the fortified Spanish forces.

In China, the English used guns, cannons, god & opium to try to colinized her. But they failed.

The Dutch used their long rang cannons to smash the chinese fortresses in Taiwan into submission.

And in many early European accounts regarding the "strange" vicious fighting warriors of the east.

India was conquered becuase the English succeeded in dividing them & making the different tribes fight each other plus the english also have the superior fire power in the form of guns & cannons with better range then what is available to the locals.

And it was the same thing here in North America, the guns & cannons of the Europeans proove to be too much for the natives to handle. But when they run out of ammunition thats` when they find themselves in trouble.

This has to be one of the most childish, inaccurate, romaticized readings of history I've seen in a while.

[sherwinc]

This has to be one of the most childish, inaccurate, romaticized readings of history I've seen in a while.

Mike Tyson, Muhammed Ali, etc..... are all BLACK skinned fighters

no WHITE skinned can defeat them.....

[Tom Yum]

Another factor might be that most white people dont reside in as rough areas as most black people. The brotha's have to do more fighting as as kids and realise as an unarmed system boxing works and it doesnt take years of study. But then you get a white kid who grows up in a heavily black neighborhood who has to fight on hell of a lot because he's whitey. There one hell of alot tough white guys but prehaps this explains why the brothas seam to have the edge.

Yeah, that's mostly true. Non-white skinned kids grow up fighting alot more than their white counterparts, with some exceptions. Boxing keeps kids off the street and gives them a safe place to turn their frustrations and rage into talent.

There are some very talented non-black boxers out there and in history....Rocky Marciano, Arturo Gatti, Fernando Vargas, Mickey Ward, Vladimir and Vitali Klitschko, Darius Matschelswicz (can't spell his name), Lou Savarese, Kostazy Tsyz (can't spell his either).

The are so many variable explaining why blacks are better athletes than whites - one of them is the fact that some of them simply get off their @ss and work in the gym.

They play bball hard and emphasize things like timing, style, & technique not to mention the physical part of the game - which can translate into all sports, especially contact sports.

Watch the white guys play bball - they kind of just shoot and pass (not trying to offend here, but seriously observe) and don't really get into the game.

[Nothingness]

The black people indeed have a physiomuscular advantage; ask any body builders and they will tell you that black people are usually easier to grow muscles.

Growing up in a rough area could help you being tough, especially if you are an oppressed minority.

And for Sherwinc, I think I have a certain age bracket in mind for him . However, there is no point for me to say it, right? Some of his posts are actually good in my humble opinion.

[konghan]

This has to be one of the most childish, inaccurate, romaticized readings of history I've seen in a while.

What`s so childiesh about what is written in history books? beside whats` your account of things then? share with us the facts of accuracy?

[jubaji]

What`s so childiesh about what is written in history books? beside whats` your account of things then? share with us the facts of accuracy?

If you seriously can't see the appalling lack of reason in your statements you certainly won't recognize the reason in mine.



Good luck.

You need it.

[Broadsword2004]

Okay, I just came into this thread and noticed on this page the argument over blacks and whites fighting, so here is my opinion:

Different groups of the same animal can have different levels of physical strength. Like wolves and dogs. Technically, wolves and dogs are the same animal, just dogs have been domesticated over 1000s of years by humans. Up against the average wolf, even the most ferocious pitbull stands no chance, unless the wolf feels it shouldn't fight too aggresively. But if it does, the dog is finished. Yet a dog and a wolf are the same animal, pretty much.

I think it is sort of like that with blacks and whites, but only with the whites of Western Europe and America, since we are pretty much desendants from the Western Europeans. The "white" people of like Britain, France, Germany, etc.....have been living a more civilized life that didn't require as much hard labor for nearly as long as the blacks of Africa have. The African blacks were living pretty much the same style of life in the 1700s that they were in Greek and even Egyptian times. Thus, I think over all that time, the black people, because of their geography, have simply grown to be, though to a much lesser extent, the "wolf" of the two, in comparison to the white people, who are more like the dog. The strength difference isn't nearly as wide as it is with a wolf and a dog, but there is still a difference I think.

The reason I say the white people of Western Europe, is because the white people of countries likw the Ukraine and Russia and Bulgaria and Romania are tougher and stronger usually then the Western European whites, as far as I've seen (this is more my opinion though). I mean, in gymnastics and bodybuilding and acrobatics and ability to jump high in gymnastics and ballet dancing, etc.....the Russians and Ukrainians and Romanians can do this better than most Western European dancers and gymnasts. Just as eveyone has heard the term like, "There's one of those big-ass black guys," there's also the term, "Yeah, there's one of those big-ass Russian dudes." But no one says, "Yeah, there's one of those big-ass French dudes." The whites of those Asian countries have the same jumping and running skills as blacks I think, they just compete in different sports usually.

So I think it is more just the geography that determines a group of people's strength. The blacks in America today, while more civilized, have not been living this form of life long enough to get to the same physical level as the whites here. The people of like Russia and Ukraine and such, they have, also like the African blacks, lived a hard life for centuries. Asia is a tough place and they are known for tough-ass people.

Just my opinion though, but it makes sense to me as far as I know right now. And even then, that's fudging it some still. How good a fighter is more dependent on the training I think. I know of lots of black people who would get their butts kicked by white people.

[krys]

The reason I say the white people of Western Europe, is because the white people of countries likw the Ukraine and Russia and Bulgaria and Romania are tougher and stronger usually then the Western European whites, as far as I've seen (this is more my opinion though). I mean, in gymnastics and bodybuilding and acrobatics and ability to jump high in gymnastics and ballet dancing, etc.....the Russians and Ukrainians and Romanians can do this better than most Western European dancers and gymnasts.

Could also be because of different training methods....

[IPON]

The whites of those Asian countries

What "white" peope are you referring to in any part of asia

Please everyone let's not get side tracked on ethnic BS. The tendency toward sport can be explained based on socioecconomics as well, it really is not important we are discussing MA styles, no?

[jubaji]

Boy this thread has somehow turned over the rock in some people's thinking 'round here.







There's some nasty shit crawlin' around underneath.

[shasan]

in Pride, both Quinton Jackson and Randleman have been defeated by physically inferior competitors. japanese guys defeat white guys, brazilians defeat black guys... and all vice versa.. Race doesn't matter so quit it.

As for the question, I haven't read the entire 14 pages of this thread, but the martial arts did arise from a genuine need to hurt someone, or to defend one's self, and were used to do so in real life. There's not really any other reason for them to exist.

But times change, we get better at stuff, we invent things, make things easier, detect inefficiencies and correct them.

So.... real-world fighting using a TMA today is kinda like being in a car-race with a horse and cart. Your horse and cart may be very ornate, and beautiful, and the fastest horse and cart ever made it could be the FERRARI of horse and carts and if the other guy is on foot, or has a really bad horse and cart, your horse and cart WILL win, as it did centuries ago. But not if the other guy has a car.

Maybe it's time for an upgrade?

[sherwinc]

So.... real-world fighting using a TMA today is kinda like being in a car-race with a horse and cart. Your horse and cart may be very ornate, and beautiful, and the fastest horse and cart ever made it could be the FERRARI of horse and carts and if the other guy is on foot, or has a really bad horse and cart, your horse and cart WILL win, as it did centuries ago. But not if the other guy has a car.

Maybe it's time for an upgrade?

so, you mean..... a battle between an F14 Tomcat (KUngFu) versus a Japanese ToraTora WWII fighter plane (Non-kungfu)?????

Profiles:

F14 Tomcat
KungFu
Full of fighting options, equipment,
Plenty of Techniques to learn
Takes a Years to learn how to .....

V.S.

ToraTora WWII plane
Non-KungFu
machine gun and bomb only and nothing more
Basics and Basics only
Needs only 1hour to learn how to fly