Why are traditional martial arts seen as "ineffective"?

[sherwinc]

Convinced?

So you fighting fellows you! What other places can YOU fight on?

ChiDianBun KungFu favorite fighting places is:

1. On top of the table 1meter by 4meters size.....

2. On top of the Train......

3. On the Ground-Diagonal-Cemented-Steps on the Sports Complex Arena....

4. On the Ship/Vessels Accomodation Ladder......

5. On top of the Taxi Car......

6. On top of the small rowing boat.......

7. On top of six tight standing drums......

and.......

1. especially if there is a brick wall either on my back or wall at the back of opponent......

2. if there's a lot of coconut tree making a very tight for both fighters mobility......


Note:
He who falls, an instant defeat!!!!!! inspite of endless hand and feet combinations thrown to your opponent.......

Note:
All fighting places that i mention is not good for a moving fighter from stance to stance......

All fighting places that i mention is not good for Grapplers......

Note:
since some of actual fights do happen to a place or area that you dont like.... its not your territory but fighting do happen anytime and an unexpected circumstances........

Actuall street fighting doesnt happen inside the ring, cause there is no ring in every corners of the world.......

UNDERSTAND????????????

[Nothingness]

A small private group is very beneficial for motivated people to learn. However, learning the fighting method a.k.a. sparring might be a problem. People will learn each other rather quickly.

Maybe a good method is like having an "elite" force within the "army"?

[Thai Bri]

sherwinc - man, I knew you would not let me down. That was jusyt masterful.

Bob - I have the highest regard for your knowledge. You are probably right over me on this.

[brokenelbow]

Fighting arts should involve small classes in my view. Say two to four students. Only then can an instructor give them indiviual attention, rather than the mass copying that is most often seen.

The fighting arts should be adapted to each individual, rather than large numbers trying to adapt themselevs to the art.

Dammit it happened again! I really hate agreeing with TB. The only times I think someone should have to learn an entire traditional art is when they're going to be an instructor. Other than that the instructor should help the student find core methods and techniques that work for the student. Too much time is wasted in the TMA trying to get people to fight in ways that don't fit them.

But students need a group situation to motivate them to achieve their potential,...

Maybe to get through BUD/S but otherwise Horse feathers.

Maybe a good method is like having an "elite" force within the "army"?

That's exactly what some of the older Asian sensei do. They see talent or a genuine desire and will give that person more training outside of the regular class.

[itwillhurt]

there not more affective

no martial art is better than another. it is how u feel about it if u r real sureuse about it u will be better than a person not very sereuse in it. if u like jkd and u r serouse about it u should be able to beat a person who studies any other martial art if they studie it but they dont really practice but a few times u have to b seruios about the martial arts u r studing and have to like it or u wont be very good at it look a bruce lee him and insanto made jkd and bruce was great at is cuz he practiced it and knew what it was about. so really no martial arts is better than the other it is how u use it and how u like it.

[darrianation]

no martial art is better than another. it is how u feel about it if u r real sureuse about it u will be better than a person not very sereuse in it. if u like jkd and u r serouse about it u should be able to beat a person who studies any other martial art if they studie it but they dont really practice but a few times u have to b seruios about the martial arts u r studing and have to like it or u wont be very good at it look a bruce lee him and insanto made jkd and bruce was great at is cuz he practiced it and knew what it was about. so really no martial arts is better than the other it is how u use it and how u like it.

Hmmm...Are yo sure about that? It is a subjective matter... but depending on your goals there are better system and not so good systems.

So itwillhurt where are you from? Is english a second language?

[DrAgOn-T]

Hmmm...Are yo sure about that? It is a subjective matter... but depending on your goals there are better system and not so good systems.

So itwillhurt where are you from? Is english a second language?

Darrianation is absolutely right here itwillhurt, just to use an obvious example on what he means. Are you going to climb into a kickboxing match with training only in wrestling? Absolutely not, but for self defense there are many differant styles and everyone will tell you their's is the best, so all you can really do is research and try to find what works forr YOU.

[Tom Yum]

I am to martial arts, what Ron Jeremy is to Porn

Your the king of XXX with a degrading, yet funny sense of humor and the reason why people like you is because you are the greatest underdog with the most size.......you must be Paul Varelans

Hey Paul, how's the weather up there in AK? Yeah, I wondered why they nicknamed you the Polar Bear.

[Nothingness]

People often forget that MA training like any sports require physical fitness and good intellegence to comprehend it .

I am from TMA background. However, I can see how MMA people like BJJ and MT practicioners can excel. First, most of them are physically fit. Second, they know what their techniques are for. I am willing to bet my @$$ that MT people know exactly what they are hitting with what just like BJJ people know what they are locking with what.

While in TMA background the forms bring the blueprint of the techniques. Unsuspecting minds might not comprehend them and ending up punching the thin air with blank minds. This is another issue the "nothingness" in the oriental philosophy is often misunderstood as a blank mind. A high concentration is absolutely required although it should be executed without fixation.

A strong technique requires a physical fitness as a foundation and a good intelelegence for comprehension. The philosophical side is supposed to help the practicioners to understand the techniques and the "soul" of the system. If it interferes with the training, trash it.

I am sure that you want to make comments about this

[darrianation]

People often forget that MA training like any sports require physical fitness and good intellegence to comprehend it .

I am from TMA background. However, I can see how MMA people like BJJ and MT practicioners can excel. First, most of them are physically fit. Second, they know what their techniques are for. I am willing to bet my @$$ that MT people know exactly what they are hitting with what just like BJJ people know what they are locking with what.

While in TMA background the forms bring the blueprint of the techniques. Unsuspecting minds might not comprehend them and ending up punching the thin air with blank minds. This is another issue the "nothingness" in the oriental philosophy is often misunderstood as a blank mind. A high concentration is absolutely required although it should be executed without fixation.

A strong technique requires a physical fitness as a foundation and a good intelelegence for comprehension. The philosophical side is supposed to help the practicioners to understand the techniques and the "soul" of the system. If it interferes with the training, trash it.

I am sure that you want to make comments about this

Hay you are starting to get it.

You touched on some of the reasons here but the biggest differences in combat sports like boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, UFCs, Pride, and K1 as well as other such venues/sport MAs is they appeal to the younger more athletic individuals who on average have better physical attributes to begin with. They are willing to put more time into training, work harder, and risk more injury than your average TMA practitioner.

Besides better physical attributes they also possess greater mental attributes. Practitioners of combat sports tend to be more self-motivated, have higher degree of competitiveness, positive attitude, and a winning mindset. Not to mention these beasts who compete in events like the UFCs, pride, K1, and etc that have incredible mental toughness and focus as well as outrageous physical strength, toughness, and conditioning.

Another big reason is they have a much narrower range of goals (win the match within the confines of the rules), and their training methods are far more specific to those goals. They strive for economy of motion, conservation of energy, efficiency of training, and effectiveness of technique.

If you were to go to a boxing gym, a Muay Thai gym, or a BJJ class you would see there are some differences to the approach they take towards training compared to the methods of an average TMA class.

While in the TMAs there exists a much broader range of goals: Spiritual healing, well-being, Self-improvement, becoming a better member of the society, and etc.

We also find highly stylized and rigid methods of teaching and in some cases very complicated systems. They have rigid rules for teaching, and dissemination information that is usually controlled by an entity like an organization, or leader/grandmaster of the systems. So we find the TMAs highly politicalized (new word), and many times stringent on what kinds or types of add lib training that goes on within the system.

These stylized methodology of teaching are highly socialized and culturalized (new word) from which the art came and in many cases leave gaps in knowledge that the students are then told to seek and unlock the mysteries, and solve the riddles for them selves. This can be confusing, leaving the students ever chasing some bit of elusive knowledge that may or may not exist, or that is so highly personal and individualized that it means so many different things to so many different people that it may help one person, while leaving another utterly lost.

A student has to plow through the mysteries, learn, study, and try to comprehend the ideas and philosophies from a different era and culture. This can be difficult for many and slows down the learning process.

Especially western students are far more susceptible to this. It comes to the point where many become to understand the techniques, movements, philosophies, and strategies only in the abstract and not on their literal purpose. Since much of the philosophy is metaphorical based on hundreds of year old doctrines much is lost in the translation of theory into reality.

[konghan]

Its very simple, in the west they are more interested in agressive sports. MT, boxing, BJJ or anything that is directed at immidiate contact fighting is considered appealing including san shau-kung fu.

TMA is not only target for the immidiate needs of an individual but it has a long term affeact that is targetted more on health.

TMA has become part of a heritage, culture & tradition of a people that want to share it to others.

In the west TMA I do agree is not appealing but not in Asia.

[darrianation]

Style sucks

Style sucks-

I was teaching the self-defense class for the local shotokan school to give the head instructor a break and allow him to concentrate on other things. Now, I have over 20 years of martial arts training and 10 of those years in karate. So, I think I have a bit of knowledge when it comes to self-defense.

I also have a bit of real world experience serving in the armed forces seeing combat action, working as a body guard for important cooperate clients as well as political candidates. I have also taught many self-defense seminars for church groups, women’s groups, civic groups, as well as professional training of security and military personal. I feel I have a good grasp of what works and what doesn’t.

Well when I began teaching the self-defense class I did not like the practicality or functionality of many of the techniques, strategies, and tactics of the shotokan curriculum and I began teaching things from my own curriculum. The student’s enjoyed the direct action methods of training, employing first strike with priority weapons being palm heel strikes, elbows, knees strikes, and head buts (as well as others). With priority targets being eyes, throat, chin, knees, and groin (as well as others), We also did a lot of grappling, brake fall practice, throws/takedowns, counter throws/takedowns, escapes, reversals, control, and fininishing techniques including punching, kneeing, elbowing to the face, the ribs, groin, kidneys, the back of the head at the brain stem, and base of the spine, chokes, joint locks, as well as biting and eye gauging, etc. We also practiced with and against knives, as well as improvised weapons. We often used live unpredictable drills wearing civilian clothes and shoes.

Well, one day one of the higher ups in the organization came and saw me doing a few of these ad lib training exercises and went and complained to the head instructor telling him that I am training these guys to be brutal and to kill.

The head instructor asked me to stick to the system’s curriculum. Hmmm…In my mind the systems curriculum was timid, politically correct, and has a high potential to fail if a student really gets into trouble. So I said no! Now, I no longer teach the self-defense class for the school.

Many Americans learned karate in Okinawa, Japan, or Korea while serving in the military in the 1950’s, 60’s, and 70’s. Some of these people became black belts and when they returned to the states they began teaching and promoting there students.

One day a high-ranking official from the Japanese karate Association came to the states. As word spread many Karataka wanted to be seen and tested by this VIP from Japan. Many were great Karate champions, instructors that had committed years of training in the system. When they came and were tested some for 3rd or 4th degree black belts, instead of being promoted many were demoted in rank some even from Dan ranks to Kyu ranks.

The JKA has a long running history of not recognizing ranks from other organizations from within the same style.

It also doesn’t help that most martial arts were never geared towards mass consumption in the first place. This practice leads to styles, politics, and rigid guidelines for teaching, testing and dissemination of information.

If you take a good look at the traditional martial arts under a finer microscope you will see that it was always meant for smaller groups or individuals and was very individualized. It was a changing system, with each new student who became a master he would tailor things to meet his own goals, needs, and what the times/era dictated. Good examples of this are the samurai they changed weapons and tactics to meet the times including taking up firearms. Other examples are Itsu, Sakugawa, miyagi, Otsuka, Mabuni, Matsumura, Funakoshi, Oyama, Kenwa, and so on and so on who all made changes to the systems that their teachers taught them (not all were good).

But then something happened. It came out of the closet and became popular and profitable requiring changes, stricter rules of conformity. Watering down so it can be assimilated by society, it became less martial and more art.

There are divisions, ego, infighting, greed, and financial ambition and need to control and maintain the status quo. Now, students and instructors are no longer allowed to individualize or improve the system like those before them. They have to buy and maintain the party line. Many instructors who attempt thinking outside the box are treated like heretics or outsiders. It’s not that change is not occurring it is that the changes are politically and financially motivated and often times are not for the better.

This is way I do not like styles. I do not care for any system that is highly stylized in any way. It is a corruption of the continuity of the natural process of change, changing times, culture, generations, values, and crimes. Philosophies remain cloudy and undecipherable while theory is lost in translation into the reality of modern fighting.

I would rather train by myself, or go to select seminars, clinics, and training camps. I’d rather teach out of my garage and turn my garage into a laboratory where I can observe, perform research, and experiment, so I may continue to build my knowledge and refine my techniques, tactics, and strategies.

Where my students are allowed the freedom to think for themselves and learn on their own terms in a flexible and encouraging environment. They are free to modify the techniques they learn to fit with their own personal style and attributes. Experiment with their own ideas, and discover their own techniques, incorporate them, and even to present them in class for us to prove or disprove in the Lab to find out if they really work in an unpredictable, dynamic environment. The criteria I have are: they have to work at a high percentage of the time by the average person. I learn from them as they learn from me, knowledge is a two way street.

How can we do this? Because I do not have a style, my teaching is bodiless, flowing and changing upon the ideals and goals of efficiency, proficiency, and effectiveness.

I believe in change, I believe through continuing to learn, observe, and through trial and error that the theories, techniques, tactics, strategies, and philosophies that I believe and use today, may be different tomorrow. I will not prescribe to the party line nor will I uphold the status quo.

Free thinkers like us, are snubbed and looked down on by the traditionalists as not being legitimate, or worthy of having our own ideas or becuase we are not affraid to baorrow functuinanol techniques that are proven to work from other systems. I think they are elitists and just want to protect their influence and lies.

[konghan]

Style sucks-

I was teaching the self-defense class for the local shotokan school to give the head instructor a break and allow him to concentrate on other things. Now, I have over 20 years of martial arts training and 10 of those years in karate. So, I think I have a bit of knowledge when it comes to self-defense.

I also have a bit of real world experience serving in the armed forces seeing combat action, working as a body guard for important cooperate clients as well as political candidates. I have also taught many self-defense seminars for church groups, women’s groups, civic groups, as well as professional training of security and military personal. I feel I have a good grasp of what works and what doesn’t.

Well when I began teaching the self-defense class I did not like the practicality or functionality of many of the techniques, strategies, and tactics of the shotokan curriculum and I began teaching things from my own curriculum. The student’s enjoyed the direct action methods of training, employing first strike with priority weapons being palm heel strikes, elbows, knees strikes, and head buts (as well as others). With priority targets being eyes, throat, chin, knees, and groin (as well as others), We also did a lot of grappling, brake fall practice, throws/takedowns, counter throws/takedowns, escapes, reversals, control, and fininishing techniques including punching, kneeing, elbowing to the face, the ribs, groin, kidneys, the back of the head at the brain stem, and base of the spine, chokes, joint locks, as well as biting and eye gauging, etc. We also practiced with and against knives, as well as improvised weapons. We often used live unpredictable drills wearing civilian clothes and shoes.

Well, one day one of the higher ups in the organization came and saw me doing a few of these ad lib training exercises and went and complained to the head instructor telling him that I am training these guys to be brutal and to kill.

The head instructor asked me to stick to the system’s curriculum. Hmmm…In my mind the systems curriculum was timid, politically correct, and has a high potential to fail if a student really gets into trouble. So I said no! Now, I no longer teach the self-defense class for the school.

Many Americans learned karate in Okinawa, Japan, or Korea while serving in the military in the 1950’s, 60’s, and 70’s. Some of these people became black belts and when they returned to the states they began teaching and promoting there students.

One day a high-ranking official from the Japanese karate Association came to the states. As word spread many Karataka wanted to be seen and tested by this VIP from Japan. Many were great Karate champions, instructors that had committed years of training in the system. When they came and were tested some for 3rd or 4th degree black belts, instead of being promoted many were demoted in rank some even from Dan ranks to Kyu ranks.

The JKA has a long running history of not recognizing ranks from other organizations from within the same style.

It also doesn’t help that most martial arts were never geared towards mass consumption in the first place. This practice leads to styles, politics, and rigid guidelines for teaching, testing and dissemination of information.

If you take a good look at the traditional martial arts under a finer microscope you will see that it was always meant for smaller groups or individuals and was very individualized. It was a changing system, with each new student who became a master he would tailor things to meet his own goals, needs, and what the times/era dictated. Good examples of this are the samurai they changed weapons and tactics to meet the times including taking up firearms. Other examples are Itsu, Sakugawa, miyagi, Otsuka, Mabuni, Matsumura, Funakoshi, Oyama, Kenwa, and so on and so on who all made changes to the systems that their teachers taught them (not all were good).

But then something happened. It came out of the closet and became popular and profitable requiring changes, stricter rules of conformity. Watering down so it can be assimilated by society, it became less martial and more art.

There are divisions, ego, infighting, greed, and financial ambition and need to control and maintain the status quo. Now, students and instructors are no longer allowed to individualize or improve the system like those before them. They have to buy and maintain the party line. Many instructors who attempt thinking outside the box are treated like heretics or outsiders. It’s not that change is not occurring it is that the changes are politically and financially motivated and often times are not for the better.

This is way I do not like styles. I do not care for any system that is highly stylized in any way. It is a corruption of the continuity of the natural process of change, changing times, culture, generations, values, and crimes. Philosophies remain cloudy and undecipherable while theory is lost in translation into the reality of modern fighting.

I would rather train by myself, or go to select seminars, clinics, and training camps. I’d rather teach out of my garage and turn my garage into a laboratory where I can observe, perform research, and experiment, so I may continue to build my knowledge and refine my techniques, tactics, and strategies.

Where my students are allowed the freedom to think for themselves and learn on their own terms in a flexible and encouraging environment. They are free to modify the techniques they learn to fit with their own personal style and attributes. Experiment with their own ideas, and discover their own techniques, incorporate them, and even to present them in class for us to prove or disprove in the Lab to find out if they really work in an unpredictable, dynamic environment. The criteria I have are: they have to work at a high percentage of the time by the average person. I learn from them as they learn from me, knowledge is a two way street.

How can we do this? Because I do not have a style, my teaching is bodiless, flowing and changing upon the ideals and goals of efficiency, proficiency, and effectiveness.

I believe in change, I believe through continuing to learn, observe, and through trial and error that the theories, techniques, tactics, strategies, and philosophies that I believe and use today, may be different tomorrow. I will not prescribe to the party line nor will I uphold the status quo.

Free thinkers like us, are snubbed and looked down on by the traditionalists as not being legitimate, or worthy of having our own ideas. I think they are elitists and just want to protect their influence and lies.

If I understand your statement? I believe you are talking about individualism, that a person must train according to what is suited to him or her. Which if that`s the case, that`s true. I can only speak for where I train from & that is traditional ngo cho kun kung fu. Our master would trained us according to our body size & point out what is suited for us.

In fact techniques are also adjusted according to body & suitability.

[darrianation]

If I understand your statement? I believe you are talking about individualism, that a person must train according to what is suited to him or her. Which if that`s the case, that`s true. I can only speak for where I train from & that is traditional ngo cho kun kung fu. Our master would trained us according to our body size & point out what is suited for us.

In fact techniques are also adjusted according to body & suitability.

You not fake/commercialized kung fu! Actually I don't know enough about ngo cho kun to directly comment on it. I just believe that effectiveness comes from simplicity, directness, and minimalism. And from what I know about most kung fu systems they are far from simple and instead of being minimal they are excessive. The exact opposite of what I believe in.

Believe me, I have been doing this for 27 years and my beliefs come from experience, observation, experimentation, trail and error. I know you've been at it for a long time too.

I think we can both can agree that both ways can work to some degree, but I am not into all the extra curricular cultural, spiritual, and feel good stuff that you are into.

I also belive when it comes to self-defense, effectiveness is the ultimate goal and training should be singular and specific to that goal. I also believe that effectiveness does not need to take a lifetime or even 10 years.

Once you are effective at fighting/self-defense then you have a liftime to improve whatever else you want.

[konghan]

You not fake/commercialized kung fu! Actually I don't know enough about ngo cho kun to directly comment on it. I just believe that effectiveness comes from simplicity, directness, and minimalism. And from what I know about most kung fu systems they are far from simple and instead of being minimal they are excessive. The exact opposite of what I believe in.

Believe me, I have been doing this for 27 years and my beliefs come from experience, observation, experimentation, trail and error. I know you've been at it for a long time too.

I think we can both can agree that both ways can work to some degree, but I am not into all the extra curricular cultural, spiritual, and feel good stuff that you are into.

I also belive when it comes to self-defense, effectiveness is the ultimate goal and training should be singular and specific to that goal. I also believe that effectiveness does not need to take a lifetime or even 10 years.

Once you are effective at fighting/self-defense then you have a liftime to improve whatever else you want.

Fake? there are commecialised NCK out there as there are traditional one. In fact if you try looking up the net there is little information about NCK although NCK was the roots of many Japanese MA like shotokan, goju ryu, kyokoshin & many others. NCK also left many blueprint for many southeast asian ma both in hand & weapon techniques.

"One punch one kill" one explosive attack, simplicity with effectiveness thats` what NCK is all about.

In fact, my alma mater club got into a clash with wushu during the early 80`s & the argument was almost just like what you are pointing out. My late master didn`t want to have anything to do with modern wu shu becuase he believe that is not true martial art. Wu shu wanted to establishe a base & they want to use my master`s school as a jumping point.

Wu shu, I would say won in that conflict becuase it was more appealing in forms & exhibition performances than what NCK was offering. In fact sadly, many of my classmates & students defected to wu shu.

In our NCK it was more about life`s philosophy that include remembering, respecting & paying homage to our ancestors espacially the founders of the art. But as far as training is concern, the reason I believe that it will take years to be a true great fighter is because of what I have witness in my late master Lo King Hui & his teaching that learning to fight is easy it is becoming a master that is difficult.

In fact it took my only 2 years of hard training to win a national MMA championship tournament in the Philippines. But does that make me a great fighter? or a master?

Things that need to be develop are:strong foot work, hip power, shoulder power, arm & fist power all these should result in speed with explosive power. This mean constant punching & kicking of the bag, constant forearm smashing, constant "makiwara" punching, constant post & bag kicking.

Then after all that, strengthening of the neck, peckmuscle area, stomach, thighs & shin. Then simple "chin na" training.

Then there`s the weapons, many will argue that weapons are obselete. Yes, it is in term of modern warfare but not as a way of muscle conditioning, strengthening & application to street fighting, espacially the short weapons like chains, sai & kwai. Also, our weapons are not like wu shu weapons that are made of tin & flexible wood easy to weild, ours are made of realistic iron & hard steel as well as hard wood. Thsi quality of weapons required constant training to weold it with precision.

Ever seen a coconut chopper man with a machete? see how accurate he chop that coconut shell with one strike, he didn`t learn it in a short time.

My acheivments is not even half of all that.

Anyway, I`m not trying to sell NCK to you but I just want to point out that NCK is different from the mainstream kung fu that you have expereince.

I guess the bottom line is, are you statisfied with where you are now? if you are then you should happy & content, we can`t change the whole world just like my late master cannot stop wu shu from taking over the kung fu world.