Why are traditional martial arts seen as "ineffective"?

[konghan]

I disagree with you on this one very much. There have been several studies conducted through police depts. in the U.S. (also Military) and I believe Canada (B.C.), and Australia among others. Many of these studies show that fear and adrenaline even in the trained professional can be affected by distorted perception and limited the range of fine motor skilled movement.

We learn that people often don’t see the knife that stabs them, or the gun that shoots them. We find that fancy footwork, and other fine motor skilled movements don’t work under stressful situations (that are so common in Kung Fu, don’t work) on a consistent basis.

Through my own observations in street fighting, working in a professional manner with other TMA trained guys that they often resort to straight punches and thrust kicks in a fight, their fancy WC or KF techniques are nowhere to be seen.

Sammy Franco, Rich Dimitri, Geoff Thompson have all done good work showing that most TMAs lack functionality. Others who have shown this and have either done studies of their own or through their real word experiences have come the same conclusions. Jeff cooper, W.E. Fairbairn, Jim Wagner, Massad Ayoob, rex Applegate, Kelly Mcann (A.K.A. Jim Grover), Darren Lauer, Gabe Suarez, Christian, Gatica, Thomas Sotis, and many, many more less known people.

Now there may not be any new techniques out there but there are better methods of training, and new and innovative applications for those techniques. There are new philosophies, tactics, strategies, and technologies out there. We as martial artists need to seek them out and employ the ones that work, and rid ourselves of the practices/routines that are wasteful.

All those people that you have mention, have they tried living in the streets of Manila, Bangkok or Kuala Lumpur? or are their studies base on western society crime condition?

Try picturing this: scenario in a public utility vehicle we call them jeepneys in the Philippines it holds about 10 passengers. You got three holdupers armed with 12 inch knives, one is position behind the driver, another one in the middle passenger seat & the third by the exit door at the back of the passenger area, what do you do? if ( lets say ) you decide to fight back?

The only better training that has evovled so far for street fighting are the use of guns that`s why traditional crime gangs like the Yakuza, Tongs, Sige sige gang are all now resorting to purchasing guns legally or illigally.

What is now being sold as "new technique" & training by evolving new generation of martial people are all geared on commercialism or making money.

And spectators are there either to boo them or cheer them.

As far as fancy foot work I believe that ground fighting doen`t work to well too in a street situation espacially if its a multiple attacker.

But I do agree with you, that there are indeed getting too many MA schools that are no longer teaching the real stuff. And it all has to do with adopting to the present "market condition".

[darrianation]

All those people that you have mention, have they tried living in the streets of Manila, Bangkok or Kuala Lumpur? or are their studies base on western society crime condition?

Try picturing this: scenario in a public utility vehicle we call them jeepneys in the Philippines it holds about 10 passengers. You got three holdupers armed with 12 inch knives, one is position behind the driver, another one in the middle passenger seat & the third by the exit door at the back of the passenger area, what do you do? if ( lets say ) you decide to fight back?

The only better training that has evovled so far for street fighting are the use of guns that`s why traditional crime gangs like the Yakuza, Tongs, Sige sige gang are all now resorting to purchasing guns legally or illigally.

What is now being sold as "new technique" & training by evolving new generation of martial people are all geared on commercialism or making money.

And spectators are there either to boo them or cheer them.

As far as fancy foot work I believe that ground fighting doen`t work to well too in a street situation espacially if its a multiple attacker.

But I do agree with you, that there are indeed getting too many MA schools that are no longer teaching the real stuff. And it all has to do with adopting to the present "market condition".

Yes I have ridden in jeepneys, trikes too. First, personally I would cooperate. There are only 3 reasons I would go up agaist 3 guys with knives, 1) I Hhad a gun 2) I beleived they were going to kill me regardless if I cooperated with them or not 3) I beleived my loved ones were in grave danger- or like in the case of the terrorist hijackers.

Evidence have shown that a emty hand defender going up agains a knife wiil be cut most of the time, even those with much experiance in MAs.

I was on a bus in a foriegn country once that a group of bandits set a road block and robbed us all at gun point. I and everyone else cooperated and we gave them our money and no one was hurt.

As for ground fighting I have a saying "hit first, hit hard, and hit often...Grapple only when you have too". Darraianation

[konghan]

Yes I have ridden in jeepneys, trikes too. First, personally I would cooperate. There are only 3 reasons I would go up agaist 3 guys with knives, 1) I Hhad a gun 2) I beleived they were going to kill me regardless if I cooperated with them or not 3) I beleived my loved ones were in grave danger- or like in the case of the terrorist hijackers.

Evidence have shown that a emty hand defender going up agains a knife wiil be cut most of the time, even those with much experiance in MAs.

I was on a bus in a foriegn country once that a group of bandits set a road block and robbed us all at gun point. I and everyone else cooperated and we gave them our money and no one was hurt.

As for ground fighting I have a saying "hit first, hit hard, and hit often...Grapple only when you have too". Darraianation

There you go, I guess all those studies that you have pointed out are only theories?

[pstevens]

I think the problem is people learn something that relatively works and they think it makes them invincible. For example, take Brazilian Jiu Jitsu... Just because you know it, doesn't make you tougher or unbeatable. What it CAN DO is make you more aware of certain tactics that will enable you to defend or submit someone.

Look at your own BJJ gym. The best grapplers are physically gifted or more athletic. Some little weakling who does BJJ isn't going to win against a gifted athlete in BJJ, or any martial art.

Take boxing... It works. But unless you are gifted with enhanced reflexes and a power punch, you can't compete against the athletes. I'm not completely sold on this idea that a "sickly, weak martial artist can win against a bigger, stronger opponent." If it happens, luck plays a large role.

Physical training is relative to the person. There's good training and bad training, but for the most part, hard work will make a person better if he already has the assets: speed, size, stamina, strength and skill.

[darrianation]

There you go, I guess all those studies that you have pointed out are only theories?

I am not sure where you are coming from on that! Through studying 1000's of assaults (real criminal assault) by interviewing victims, by combing through police reports and court documents and through their own real world experiances these guys have put together several very exhaustive studies.

We learn through- Observation, Experimentation, and experience. These guys as with myself have learned Through Studying research that has been done by others, observing what happens during scenarios, what we've witnessed or seen when other people have been attacked or in street fighting. Experimentation- trying new ways at attacking old problems, working techniques and approaches/strategies in the gym/lab (field or training center). Experience what we ourselves have been through as far as attacks, combat and experiences of those who have worked in the real world- law enforcement, military, doormen, security agents, body guards, and etc.

Using Observation, Experimentation, and experience we can piece together the parts of the puzzle that brings us to what works, and what doesn’t!

The number one thing you should learn in Self-defense is not to learn to fight, but how to avoid violence in the first place. Then learn to fight hard and end the encounter swiftly.

We in combatives understand this but we work backwards. We begin our training in lethal criminal assault and work back down the latter towards non-lethal situations. We learn to operate within the use of force latter but we begin at the top.

Combatives teaches ways of avoiding bad situations we also teach weapons are better than empty hands. The basic order is like this:
1) Avoidance
2) Fight Psychology
3) Defensive and tactical firearms
4) Tactical knife
5) Improvised weapons
6) Empty hand techniques

We spend more time on weapons than on empty hands. So when we do our empty hands training they have to be easy to learn and retain. So we concentrate on simple and effective with no non-sense/no bull shit techniques and strategies. That means we work gross motor skilled movements and techniques that work at high percentages. We have no time to learn techniques/strategies that are low performers or only work at a low percentage. We are interested in only those techniques that work well at a high percentage of the time on a consistent basis.

I have trained with some those people I mentioned in my earlier post. I have real world experience outside the ring. I have been in a number of street fights and I have been stabbed, and I have had bones broken from criminal assaults (armed mutiple attackers), I have been in combat with people shooting at me (military). I have also been shot in the leg (this was accidental by a friend, and non-military related). I have worked and continue to work as a personal and corporate protection operator. I have trained other security operatives for different companies that contract with oil companies and DOD (medical mostly).

I have over twenty years of MA training all together. When I compare the two combatives VS TMAs there is no doubt in my mind which is better. Combative wins hands down.

[Tom Yum]

Physical training is relative to the person. There's good training and bad training, but for the most part, hard work will make a person better if he already has the assets: speed, size, stamina, strength and skill.

I agree, but sometimes looks can be deceiving because you can't allways gauge a person's skill level at any given instant unless you are allready fighting and then its too late.

Some people look frail, but have excellent skill or stamina - Helio Gracie (in his younger days) fought all kinds of street fighters, boxers, karateka, wrestlers, judoka and others. The man didn't look intimidating at all, but had superior technique.

Ramon Dekker (muay thai) is like 5'6" and 138 but can take a licking and keep on ticking. That's why they call him 'diamond'; the man is rock hard and hits like a mule.

[Nothingness]

I agree, but sometimes looks can be deceiving because you can't allways gauge a person's skill level at any given instant unless you are allready fighting and then its too late.

Some of infamous martial artists have a small built. These people will strong willed work really hard to make their technics perfect and to get a physics that is strong enough as a foundation of their technics. They keep in mind that they need to take down bigger enemies. This hardwork results in an excellent result.

[jukado1]

What is the mind set of the tma ? most of the traditional martial arts have a wide range of goals, and the training is scattered so no one goal is accomplished, if your goal is self defense/street fighting then your training must emphasize this goal and most of your training should have this in mind. most systems, styles, schools train not only in things of value, but also in non useful moves, Another problem is to much specificity, many kick boxers (but not all) have never worked on defense against a back choke defense, many grappler's spend so much time on ground fighting that they do not have the ability to handle a knife attack, so instead of asking why not tma, lets ask what will enable one to set and reach their goals,
1st. set specific goals as to what you want to accomplish in your training.

2nd. find a way to accomplish these goals, find a school, or schools, and if that is not enough read or get tapes on the area's you want to get to.

3rd. after you have a solid understanding and basic ability in self defense/fighting then you start trying to improve the individual parts of your tools, this is where live training with a resisting opponent comes in. for your hands work boxing, in case you find your self on the ground, do bjj, think of this not as sport but as handicap development of your tools,
from here keep your goals in mind, but also if you want try to have a little fun, maybe at this point study martial ARTS.

[Thai Bri]

Bob, I think that the problem revolves around people not knowing HOW to set specific goals. They don't undertstand the potential implications of fighting, so have no knowledge of what they may be lacking.

And when their instructor tells them that they are learning "Ultimate Self Defence", they see no need to look harder.

[jukado1]

O K thai bri, your right again.

Thai Bri: yes, your right, that is one of the reasons forums like this can be of value, to help people to discover what is available to them and to help them know what to do and where to go to achieve these results. I wish more instructors would instead of teaching by rote, actually help their students discover what is possible, BUT UNTIL THAT HAPPENS, these forums are one chance to steer folks in the right direction.

[Thai Bri]

Fighting arts should involve small classes in my view. Say two to four students. Only then can an instructor give them indiviual attention, rather than the mass copying that is most often seen.

The fighting arts should be adapted to each individual, rather than large numbers trying to adapt themselevs to the art.

[sherwinc]

Only half true.

A true fighter can fight ring or street. If it's in our head, we can adapt. There can't de a division of what "we can't do" or it's a waste of time.

Street and ring are the same if you have the right instructor!

Correction.......

Street, On-top-of-the-table, beach, On-top-of-the-moving-train, On-top-of-the-Plum-Flower-Posts, etc., and ring are the same if you have the right instructor!

[Thai Bri]

Convinced?

So you fighting fellows you! What other places can YOU fight on?

[konghan]

Fighting arts should involve small classes in my view. Say two to four students. Only then can an instructor give them indiviual attention, rather than the mass copying that is most often seen.

The fighting arts should be adapted to each individual, rather than large numbers trying to adapt themselevs to the art.

Putting this in the military context, drill sargeants have a company of about 30-40 men & women to train while special forces have only about 12 or less & usually those 12 or less are well selected & reserved only to those who are really committed, gifted & dedicated.

In the TMA world or self defense schools it has the same concept. A general training for all & a special training to a selected few.

[jukado1]

O. K. thai bri, close to right again. the ideal teaching system is one on one private lessons and small, 4 to 8 student classes, the privates can help a student to work on just what is necessary at that time, But students need a group situation to motivate them to achieve their potential, if you look at tournament karates history, there has never been a private lesson only trained fighter who has made a name for themselves, and yes that includes Larry Kelly, in order to be outstanding you must have a competitive spirit, and classes help to develop that spirit.
Akja, your right, once a student has learned self defense they can start working on fighting, then they should be developing a well rounded skill set, which includes sport, boxing/kick boxing, judo/wrestling, submission grappling, the better the fighter the more well rounded is their skills for all fighting venue's, no one skill is the very best, as boxing doesn't teach ground defense, pure wrestling does not teach how to do chokes, etc,