Why are traditional martial arts seen as "ineffective"?

[sherwinc]

Sherwinc you take things to literally. That dark alley can be anywhere. At the bank, outside a movie theater, a restaurant, in a parking lot, at a ball game, even in your own home.

there are too many dark alley here in our place but i did not engaged in a streetfight cause i know how to evade situations which i think it would lead to my jeopardy...... there are too many people/crowded places here and i go with crowds.....

It doesn’t matter anyway because when ever a kung Fu guy looses you’ll just say he learns fake commercializes KF, what a great way to hide from the truth. It’s called denial!

as i said before, there is a very big difference between commercialized, non-commercialized and fake kungfu schools......

i didn't yet enter inside the School KongHan in Manila but as i know that they never defeat previous tournaments with MMA.....

show me evidence of a Non-Commercialized KungFu defeated by stupid MMA????

Non-Commercialized KungFu School in Manila that i know is the following:
1. Philippine E-NEE
2. Armstrong (Chee-Kiong)
3. KongHan Athletic School
4. BengKiam Athletic School
(they were not been defeated yet before, never defeated)

The Commercialized KungFu School and Fake KungFu School that i know here in Iloilo is the following:
1. Iloilo YMCA Tinagan Martial Arts (WuShu Category)
2. Fake WingChun KungFu School found at the back of Molo City HighSchool
3. Chinese KungFu Association by Dennis Chan Padilla located at La Paz, besides Gaisano
4. LIMDIASTIAN KungFu by Mike Diaz (Michael Gerodiaz)
5. there are too many Fake/Commercialized KungFu Schools, Teachers, and Students that i meet and see here in Iloilo City.......
(All of them are all defeated by a simple Karate opponent, All of them are all defeated by a simple Tae Kwon Do opponent)

You are also living in a fantasy world if you think and I quote “we have to finished the fight instantly” It’s a good concept and admirable goal but if you really believe you can end fights instantly with one strike then you are a fool (or super human). In reality it doesn’t work like that unless you get lucky I’ll always take good luck when comes my way but I will not count on luck to be my ally every time. Other than that I’ll stick to the high percentage strikes the ones that are effective on a more consistent bases.

If you can make a throat strike land effectively 100% of the time then why would you need to train in anything else?

cause when both of the opponents forearms and hands are still active - it is very hard to land your fist unto his body and head, he will block your attacking hand.....

so, in order to solve this problem, you must learn more and plenty of techniques, endless none-telegraphic attacking combinations in order to successfully land your attacks to your opponent......

be sure that each attack can paralize the opponent........

Note:
opponents eyes is so soft..... why would i attack him in the chest using a stupid boxing punch?????? love to Biu Jee opponents eyes......

So even in a uncommercialized KF school with one teacher and 1 or 2 students hid up in a cave or down in the sifu’s basement practicing in secret, what makes you think this would teach someone to fight any better? Obviously it stands to reason the smaller the class the better the learning because the instructor has more time to identify problems and correct them.

However there are still some problems, like because there are so few people practicing that new blood and ideas do not get infused into the system. The system does not grow and the system stagnates. A system that does not grow (changes for the better through adding new technology and techniques that work while ridding itself of thing that don’t) is a dead system. You also fall into the loop of predictability because you learn everyone else’s style and ways/tricks of fighting and it becomes predictable and complacent. Also just because someone trains in secret does not make it any more effective.

I think you are in a Kung Fu cult. You need an intervention and deprogramming. Please seek help!

its not my problem, the more the art is not exposed - the more it is brutal and deadly.....

[sherwinc]

Sherwinc you take things to literally. That dark alley can be anywhere. At the bank, outside a movie theater, a restaurant, in a parking lot, at a ball game, even in your own home.

there are too many dark alley here in our place but i did not engaged in a streetfight cause i know how to evade situations which i think it would lead to my jeopardy...... there are too many people/crowded places here and i go with crowds.....

It doesn’t matter anyway because when ever a kung Fu guy looses you’ll just say he learns fake commercializes KF, what a great way to hide from the truth. It’s called denial!

as i said before, there is a very big difference between commercialized, non-commercialized and fake kungfu schools......

i didn't yet enter inside the School KongHan in Manila but as i know that they never defeat previous tournaments with MMA.....

show me evidence of a Non-Commercialized KungFu defeated by stupid MMA????

Non-Commercialized KungFu School in Manila that i know is the following:
1. Philippine E-NEE
2. Armstrong (Chee-Kiong)
3. KongHan Athletic School
4. BengKiam Athletic School
(they were not been defeated yet before, never defeated)

The Commercialized KungFu School and Fake KungFu School that i know here in Iloilo is the following:
1. Iloilo YMCA Tinagan Martial Arts (WuShu Category)
2. Fake WingChun KungFu School found at the back of Molo City HighSchool
3. Chinese KungFu Association by Dennis Chan Padilla located at La Paz, besides Gaisano
4. LIMDIASTIAN KungFu by Mike Diaz (Michael Gerodiaz)
5. there are too many Fake/Commercialized KungFu Schools, Teachers, and Students that i meet and see here in Iloilo City.......
(All of them are all defeated by a simple Karate opponent, All of them are all defeated by a simple Tae Kwon Do opponent)

You are also living in a fantasy world if you think and I quote “we have to finished the fight instantly” It’s a good concept and admirable goal but if you really believe you can end fights instantly with one strike then you are a fool (or super human). In reality it doesn’t work like that unless you get lucky I’ll always take good luck when comes my way but I will not count on luck to be my ally every time. Other than that I’ll stick to the high percentage strikes the ones that are effective on a more consistent bases.

If you can make a throat strike land effectively 100% of the time then why would you need to train in anything else?

cause when both of the opponents forearms and hands are still active - it is very hard to land your fist unto his body and head, he will block your attacking hand.....

so, in order to solve this problem, you must learn more and plenty of techniques, endless none-telegraphic attacking combinations in order to successfully land your attacks to your opponent......

be sure that each attack can paralize the opponent........

Note:
opponents eyes is so soft..... why would i attack him in the chest using a stupid boxing punch?????? love to Biu Jee opponents eyes......

So even in a uncommercialized KF school with one teacher and 1 or 2 students hid up in a cave or down in the sifu’s basement practicing in secret, what makes you think this would teach someone to fight any better? Obviously it stands to reason the smaller the class the better the learning because the instructor has more time to identify problems and correct them.

However there are still some problems, like because there are so few people practicing that new blood and ideas do not get infused into the system. The system does not grow and the system stagnates. A system that does not grow (changes for the better through adding new technology and techniques that work while ridding itself of thing that don’t) is a dead system. You also fall into the loop of predictability because you learn everyone else’s style and ways/tricks of fighting and it becomes predictable and complacent. Also just because someone trains in secret does not make it any more effective.

I think you are in a Kung Fu cult. You need an intervention and deprogramming. Please seek help!

its not my problem, the more the art is not exposed - the more it is brutal and deadly.....

[DrAgOn-T]

I have just about had it with this secretive crap, what is the point in even having this discussion? I mean so master Wong Fu Shen teaches the most deadly form of martial arts imaginable deep in the forest. I'll still knock him out with a straight left, then give him the people's elbow, while his 2 shaved head students look on in awe of my great skill, even though I used no super crane kick, nor did I bother with a mega stone fist to the forehead. I simply got the job D O N E.

[sherwinc]

I have just about had it with this secretive crap, what is the point in even having this discussion? I mean so master Wong Fu Shen teaches the most deadly form of martial arts imaginable deep in the forest. I'll still knock him out with a straight left, then give him the people's elbow, while his 2 shaved head students look on in awe of my great skill, even though I used no super crane kick, nor did I bother with a mega stone fist to the forehead. I simply got the job D O N E.

you are living in a dream world, go the hell out of the vacuum and face the reality.......

[darrianation]

This one is for those people who think traditional styles won't hold up against modern MMA practitioners.....

K-1 fighters lost the event 7-0 against Kyokushin practitioners....... this link really speaks for itself

http://ko.sherdog.com/pictures/k1_053004/k1_01.htm

As per Nebula

Those are fake commercialized K1 fighters...convinced???????

Congrats to the Kyokushin fighters they dominate the karate world. The gyms (dojos) that produce these fighters aren't you typical gyms with typical routines even under Japanese standards.

I have said on this forum and others too that if you had to train in a TMA style MA it should be Kyokushin.

But is Kyokushin traditional style? I call it a TMA styled art. It is eclectic style training in some of the more classical ways.

Mas Oyama didn't open his dojo until 1953 many of his student’s came from other Karate styles and even though Oyama had developed his style he continued to barrow from other styles (techniques any thing that worked).

He took what he felt were the best techniques and concepts from any Martial Art that he found valid and created what we now know as Kyokushin.

Kyokushin in some ways has some classical things in it, but has many things that are not. It is a relatively new style of karate even by Karate standards. There are a lot of modern methods and modern thought in it.

Anyway they turn out some pretty good fighters!

[darrianation]

Francisco Filho Is not only a Kyokushin fighter but an accomplished kickboxer as well making other appearances in K1. Do you think he trains for his fights with his old karate sensei or do you think he has modern trainers?

Again Glaube Feitosa is an accomplished KB and a no stranger to K1!



Remy Bonjasky Holland / Mejiro Gym VS Francisco Filho Brazil / Kyokushin Kaikan

Alistair Overeem Holland / Golden Glory Gym VS Glaube FeitosaBrazil / Kyokushin Kaikan

Seth Petruzelli U.S.A. / Marcio Simas Brasilian Jiu-Jitsu VS Alexandre PitchkounovRussia / Kyokushin Kaikan

Mavrick Germany / Shark Tank Gym VS Makoto AkaishiJapan / Kyokushin Kaikan

Peter Majstorovic Switerland / Seido Kaikan VS Ewerton Teixeira Brazil / Kyokushin Kaikan

Big FamU.S.A. / Tai-Kai Jiujitsu VS Lechi KurbanovRussia / Kyokushin Kaikan

Hanse Nijman Holland / Freelance VS Kentaro Tanaka Japan / Kyokushin Kaikan

So you see some of these Kyokushin fighter were no stranger to K1 and other Kyokushin fighters fought other traditional fighters. But still congrats to the Kyokushin team.

An interesting note: One of the loosing K1 fighters had Seido Kaikan listed as his style or training center. Anyway according to the K1 website In 1983 Seido Kaikan fighters square off against a group of Kung fu experts at the Queen Elizabeth Stadium in Kansai and won the contest.

[Kirves]

I actually heard an interesting quote from Emin B. Dunno if it's true or not, but at least would sound honest if it is true. I heard that he was asked why he doesn't partake in any NHB tournaments and he said he is afraid he might ruin some of his looks if he took too much beating on his face - as he is pursuing an acting career and thinks one of his advantages besides possible acting skills, would be his physique and looks. As I said, I have no idea whatsoever if this is true or false, but it would at least be more honest reply than the "my art is too deadly for the ring" crap.

[konghan]

Those are fake commercialized K1 fighters...convinced???????

Congrats to the Kyokushin fighters they dominate the karate world. The gyms (dojos) that produce these fighters aren't you typical gyms with typical routines even under Japanese standards.

I have said on this forum and others too that if you had to train in a TMA style MA it should be Kyokushin.

But is Kyokushin traditional style? I call it a TMA styled art. It is eclectic style training in some of the more classical ways.

Mas Oyama didn't open his dojo until 1953 many of his student’s came from other Karate styles and even though Oyama had developed his style he continued to barrow from other styles (techniques any thing that worked).

He took what he felt were the best techniques and concepts from any Martial Art that he found valid and created what we now know as Kyokushin.

Kyokushin in some ways has some classical things in it, but has many things that are not. It is a relatively new style of karate even by Karate standards. There are a lot of modern methods and modern thought in it.

Anyway they turn out some pretty good fighters!

Too much justification, its` still karate. When kung fu san shou defeated karate & muay thai kung fu san shou was criticise of being fake no matter what they say. San shou is kung fu & it is TMA same with kyokushin.

In fact I bet darrniation ,that if you were around during the 70`s & have witness me fought in an amature MMA in which I successfully defeated 10 different fighters you would probably say that my kung fu is fake & not traditional too?

I am of ngo cho kun kung fu & it is this style that karate no matter what style have evolve their technique & training from. But I have no problem with other people`s opinion everyone have the right to their own opinion.

[CKD]

Sherwinc get the Gracies in action tapes from www.gracieacademy.com and you will see kung fu get defeated. Not fake kung fu but real kung fu. How about you show us some proof of kung fu beating bjj or mma huh? You keep on asking about us porving to you but you never bothered trying to prove to us besides some old kung fu movies How is Sanshou a tma? It has no forms, no stances, its technques are the exact same as muay thai.

[darrianation]

Too much justification, its` still karate. When kung fu san shou defeated karate & muay thai kung fu san shou was criticise of being fake no matter what they say. San shou is kung fu & it is TMA same with kyokushin.

In fact I bet darrniation ,that if you were around during the 70`s & have witness me fought in an amature MMA in which I successfully defeated 10 different fighters you would probably say that my kung fu is fake & not traditional too?

I am of ngo cho kun kung fu & it is this style that karate no matter what style have evolve their technique & training from. But I have no problem with other people`s opinion everyone have the right to their own opinion.

I never said Kung Fu is fake. I just think there are better ways to train. I also do not believe in styles. I think if your goal is self-defense their are much better systems out there than Kung FU and other TMAs.

As for San Shou at least the stuff I see in the tourney’s/ring I like very much. A lot like MT with throws and trips allowed.

Honestly there is just too much hocus pocus crap in KF and in a lot of other TMAs. I believe the simple or gross motor techniques work far better then some of the more flowery or fine motor skilled techniques when fighting for your life. Gross motor skilled techniques need far less time to learn too. And work even when fear and adrenaline hit.

In any event Kokushin karate is more gross motor skilled oriented and I'll guarantee the techniques they used in the ring are gross motor skilled too.

Anyway I have also fought in limited rule matches or MMA, and I have gone up against some pretty tough characters. My toughest match was against a marine in a NHB Bare knuckled match he only had about a year of boxing training and he bloodied me badly and was kicking my ass until I dislocated his shoulder after throwing him and landing on him.

I fought a WC guy in the same night that I easily defeated. He tried coming strait at me with those rolling punches. Easy to beat! I cliched him and kneed, kneed and as he pushed out of my clinched I droped him with a round kick to his head and a right cross.

Anyway if you enjoy KF I have no beef, but for me I'd rather spend my time doing reality combatives and shooting at the gun range.

And Congrats again to the Kyokushin guys.

[pstevens]

Sherwinc get the Gracies in action tapes from www.gracieacademy.com and you will see kung fu get defeated. Not fake kung fu but real kung fu. How about you show us some proof of kung fu beating bjj or mma huh? You keep on asking about us porving to you but you never bothered trying to prove to us besides some old kung fu movies How is Sanshou a tma? It has no forms, no stances, its technques are the exact same as muay thai.

Dude, your Gracie propaganda is getting tiresome... Just because the Gracies beat a few kung-fu people in controlled environments doesn't mean anything... Those aren't real fights...

The Gracie fights just seem to happen around cameras with a huge Gracie entourage. I've seen footage where Rickson and some GJJ guys are smirking as a judo instructor teaches his students to throw. Later, Rickson and his large following got to work by submitting all these Judo guys and then claim GJJ is supreme... That's pathetic... That was probably just a local judo club.

Exactly what does it say about a guy who has trained BJJ all his life and fought numerous MMA fights and beats a Judo guy who has never done anything remotely similar... Nothing, except one guy is a professional and the other isn't. If that were the case, Mike Tyson going to the local karate club and beating everyone up is a case for boxing being the best MA.

Whether you people like it or not, every MA has some sort of validation to their specific location, people or culture. Maybe I live in a place where people are genetically unable to kick, in which case kicking is the best art. Doesn't mean it's going to work for anyone, but it works for me. If I need to do something else, I learn it and add on to my repetoire.. It's that easy. All this talk of style vs. style is futile and pointless... Just learn to improve yourself to the best of your abilities... That's all anyone can ask of you.

[CKD]

Dude, your Gracie propaganda is getting tiresome... Just because the Gracies beat a few kung-fu people in controlled environments doesn't mean anything... Those aren't real fights...

The Gracie fights just seem to happen around cameras with a huge Gracie entourage. I've seen footage where Rickson and some GJJ guys are smirking as a judo instructor teaches his students to throw. Later, Rickson and his large following got to work by submitting all these Judo guys and then claim GJJ is supreme... That's pathetic... That was probably just a local judo club.

Exactly what does it say about a guy who has trained BJJ all his life and fought numerous MMA fights and beats a Judo guy who has never done anything remotely similar... Nothing, except one guy is a professional and the other isn't. If that were the case, Mike Tyson going to the local karate club and beating everyone up is a case for boxing being the best MA.

Whether you people like it or not, every MA has some sort of validation to their specific location, people or culture. Maybe I live in a place where people are genetically unable to kick, in which case kicking is the best art. Doesn't mean it's going to work for anyone, but it works for me. If I need to do something else, I learn it and add on to my repetoire.. It's that easy. All this talk of style vs. style is futile and pointless... Just learn to improve yourself to the best of your abilities... That's all anyone can ask of you.

What Gracie propaganda? Sherwinc asked for kung fu fighters getting beat by other martial arts and I gave it to him. The rules in these videos were no biting and eye gouging and that was pretty much it. Now Sherwinc should show us some kung fu beating mma. Yes the kung fu fighters in the video were pretty skilled in there art. What evidence do you need besides a person beating another in a no rules setting. Sure there was no weapons but would a person coming out and stabbing a person really prove anything. Stop dissing people and saying they are trying to spread propaganda. In case you have not noticed my primary art has been kung fu and I have done little bjj so why would I be spreading porpoganda. Style does matter. It definitely has an effect on how effectively we fight. Not all the fighters they fought were inexperienced. Some had experience in gong sau in china others were pro fighters in there arts and others were veteran streetfighters. A ma does not become famous by having its practicioners beat losers.This link is a shout out my man sherwinc http://www.bullshido.com/videos/ving...n_fighting.mpg

[Tom Yum]

Its still karate.

I've never been anti-karate.

My beef has been with the watering down of traditional martial arts and lack of intense and realistic training, which has happened in some styles of karate, kung-fu and TKD.

I've allways said that traditional styles like Kyokushin Karate, Seidokan karate, Kenpo, Tang Soo Do, Hapkido, Chin na, Japanese Jujitsu, Judo and Silat seem to train realistically.

[DrAgOn-T]

the only thing I have to say right now is...OH MY GOD I have just seen the coolest damn thing I have ever seen (I'm watching Club Dread and for those of you who have seen it this chick gets topless and does some awesome gymnasttics stuff) anyway back to kung fu. I have a problem with any martial art that does not evolve, if a TMA evolves to compete along with modern day martial arts, it is no longer a TMA it has become modernized. My BJJ instructor also is a master of Kung Fu San Soo, which he incorporates into the BJJ training, but Kung Fu San Soo is not a TMA because it has adapted to meet the demands of the modern warrior.

Thank you and goodnight

[konghan]

Here is one for thoughts, in a one on one fight maybe a mix MA like bjj or ground fighting or maybe MT or any tournamnet ring sport have an advantage over other TMA & that`s a maybe, but in a group fight lets say in a riot of maybe about 100 vs another group of 100 people I would give TMA the advantage.