Why are traditional martial arts seen as "ineffective"?

[konghan]

I have three categories for drills and all have their purpose

1) (Phase one) Dead drills- these drills are for teaching newbie’s or for learning new techniques or combinations of techniques. They develop proper technique (physics) and timing.

* I think the thai pads and the heavy bags are better for developing proper technique than the dead drills.

2) (Phase 2) Semi live drills these are like the ones that chris davis 200 showed. They have the main ingredience of the live drills but lack the same commitment, and generally the defender knows what attack is coming. This is meant to be a bridge between dead drills and live drills.


3) (Phase 3) live drills- These are done at full speed and at 85-100% power. These drills are unpredictable, and dynamic. Usually the defender will not know what attack is coming. For the more experienced students the majority of training should be in live the training category. These are commited drills!



I find the more time we spend doing the live drills (phase3) the better I am and the better my students are. I spend less than 10% of my drill time on dead drills if that much.

Drills must always be executed 100%, full power attack, realistically aimimg for the target. If one cannot defend or attack properly in a drill what more in a real fight?

[konghan]

I have concentrated a lot on ring tournament training base on ngo cho kun technique. But one day years back ago,I spar with one of my seniors, full sparing & he attack me with a quick knife hand & knife chop to my throat (its a good thing he missed my adam`s apple) & he try to chop my colar bone.

I got use to ring fighting which the traditional attack of kicks, punch, sweep, takedowns that I forgat or my muscle forgat to react on non ring fights situations. Thats` when I started rebalancing my training.

I

[Nothingness]

I think I need to speak up a bit now.
Other than commercialism and overemphasis on lineage, I see some flaws in TMA, too.

First, let me start with saying that I am practicing a TCMA, Ngo Cho Kun. Without being disrespect to my teacher or anyone else, I have notices these following things in TMA:

1) Physical exercises are not up to today's date. There are some old style exercises that are still being used. I am very grateful that my teacher is really open to me. I think we should always find out what is the underlying assumption behind each exercise. Then we try to compare it with modern physical training to see its effectiviness. Take what is good as a complement training.

2) Easter Bunny stories. "In the old time, our ancerstors could do this and that, etc." While some stories are exgeratation of true stories, some are just fantasies. In the old time, these stories were used to motivate students through hard training. Somehow these stories gave students motivation. In the modern time, those can have a reverse effect.

However, TMA can be really strong for a real word defense. Just get an instructor who's a veteran in fighting and pay less attention to the lineage. Lineage can be important, but what can beat experiences?

[konghan]

I think I need to speak up a bit now.
Other than commercialism and overemphasis on lineage, I see some flaws in TMA, too.

First, let me start with saying that I am practicing a TCMA, Ngo Cho Kun. Without being disrespect to my teacher or anyone else, I have notices these following things in TMA:

1) Physical exercises are not up to today's date. There are some old style exercises that are still being used. I am very grateful that my teacher is really open to me. I think we should always find out what is the underlying assumption behind each exercise. Then we try to compare it with modern physical training to see its effectiviness. Take what is good as a complement training.

2) Easter Bunny stories. "In the old time, our ancerstors could do this and that, etc." While some stories are exgeratation of true stories, some are just fantasies. In the old time, these stories were used to motivate students through hard training. Somehow these stories gave students motivation. In the modern time, those can have a reverse effect.

However, TMA can be really strong for a real word defense. Just get an instructor who's a veteran in fighting and pay less attention to the lineage. Lineage can be important, but what can beat experiences?

Me my problem, is trying to adjust to modern way of training which is in most cases overemphasing on safety. Now, I`m trying to come up with a teaching plan that is "western standard". Like in stretching in the west it is done slowly & hold, in the east it is done in what we call "dynamic or bouncing". And to give pre warning to students like bruises when they do forearm training & to use proper medication becuase if anything should happen one could get sued. I guess that`s why, instructors like me are required to get a minimum of $1 million liability insurance.

Although sceintist have proven that dynamic stretching has long term health problem what they can`t proove is why many eastern martial art people didn`t have that problem? It`s like the expression " do what the romans do". So if one is in the east do the eastern way if in the west do the western way.

[sherwinc]

In ngo cho kun, we train in weapons that are real, real in weight, real in sharpness & length. To say that weapons training is useless is not true. Weapons training develop your arm, shoulder & leg strength a weapon must be train to the point that it "becomes" a part of your body. Proper way to slice, stab, parry, block.

Therefore, everything that my KungFu instructor said is all TRUE.......

he said to us before that there in KongHan or E-NEE, they practice there kungfu weapons - real sharp tip spears that you trust rapidly to your partner while he in-turn do defend it not to hit his head from the tip of that spear..... it is not a pre-arrange type of form but its a sparring with the use of true kungfu weapons......

my instructor also said that before you use (especially the broadsword) you have to pray first to their religion and if permitted you or not.....

cause one of his partner there (i dont know whether in KongHan or in E-NEE) he use to get the broadsword and practice it without asking prayer permission then an accident happened - that sharp blade of his broadsword he accidentally hit his own musles from the upper portion of his left elbow, if you see it - it is like a sandals skin shaped that his skin hanged to the base of his elbow......

they used real kungfu weapons even in sparring (but, with asking prayer permission) ......

[Nothingness]

I understand your pain. What kind of warming up did you do at Kong Han? My school here never really uses any formal warming up. We usually start with a breathing exercise. In addition, none of Ngo Cho Kun moves overextend the limbs, right? It should be okay, but I understand your concern about the cry babies. Sorry to hear that.

[sherwinc]

I have seen many a wing WC guys not be able to do this stuff against non-WC persons who wasn’t cooperating

What you seen is a COMMERCILIZED KUNGFU PRACTITIONERS AND FAKE KUNGFU SCHOOLS

We are not commercialized so the ratio of hit is 2:22
my non-kungfu partner hit me 2times while i hit him 22times

while my kungfu instructor hit me 10times while i did not even hit my instructor even just once...... all of my best moves is all intercepted.....

the only way to know if your kungfu is Fake, Commercialized, Non-Commercialized is thru hard sparring with a Non-KungFu opponent and take note your ratio of hits (assuming that both of you have power and speed in all executions)

(I am sure there are a few that can, but I think they are the exception to the rule).

Therefore its a Non-Commercialized KungFu and its TRUE!!!!!!!

If i know that my KungFu is a Commercialized or Fake - then why should i waste my time learning stupid moves, waste of money, waste of effort, waste of quoting here in defend.net.......

CONVINCED????????????

This insures the student can actually use it against a non cooperative thug who is trying to take his head off (or at least gives a better chance).

He who comes - MEET
He who withdraws - FOLLOW
Lossing of a Hand Contact - RUSH-IN


if the opponent is a non cooperative thug - he will loose the fight

now, if the opponent is a cooperative thug - he will loose the fight instantly

Note:
look at my signature and read:

When your hand or forearm meets my hand or forearm, your hand or forearm is already my hand or forearm
(quote by myself)

When your hand meets my feet, your a dead meat!!!!!!
(quote by my instructor)

When your hand meets my hand, it is already your end!!!!!!
(quote by my instructors instructor)

[Tom Yum]

but, it is still considered as a HUMAN DUMMY

both fighters are Human Dummy

no emphasize of forearm/hand blocking, intercepting, neutralizing, deflecting, yeilding, trading blows, etc.....

instead, when the opponent attacks they just do forearm/hand covering, and blocking the opponents punch using their head (human dummy)

There were a couple of Wing Chun guys who entered the earlier UFC's.

One match was a wing chun guy vs. Dave Benetau, a pioneer in MMA. Wingchun guy gets into his stance, gets taken down and submitted in under a minute.

Another match was a wingchun guy vs. Mark Kerr. Wingchun guy throws chain punches that bounce of Kerr. Kerr gets the clinch and drives a knee into wingchun guys head. WC guy gets KOd.

These were black sash ranked wingchun fighters.

[darrianation]

What you seen is a COMMERCILIZED KUNGFU PRACTITIONERS AND FAKE KUNGFU SCHOOLS

We are not commercialized so the ratio of hit is 2:22
my non-kungfu partner hit me 2times while i hit him 22times

while my kungfu instructor hit me 10times while i did not even hit my instructor even just once...... all of my best moves is all intercepted.....

the only way to know if your kungfu is Fake, Commercialized, Non-Commercialized is thru hard sparring with a Non-KungFu opponent and take note your ratio of hits (assuming that both of you have power and speed in all executions)




Therefore its a Non-Commercialized KungFu and its TRUE!!!!!!!

If i know that my KungFu is a Commercialized or Fake - then why should i waste my time learning stupid moves, waste of money, waste of effort, waste of quoting here in defend.net.......

CONVINCED????????????



He who comes - MEET
He who withdraws - FOLLOW
Lossing of a Hand Contact - RUSH-IN


if the opponent is a non cooperative thug - he will loose the fight

now, if the opponent is a cooperative thug - he will loose the fight instantly

Note:
look at my signature and read:

When your hand or forearm meets my hand or forearm, your hand or forearm is already my hand or forearm
(quote by myself)

When your hand meets my feet, your a dead meat!!!!!!
(quote by my instructor)

When your hand meets my hand, it is already your end!!!!!!
(quote by my instructors instructor)

You assume way to much! Assumamption is one of the deadly sins of self-defense.

When was the last time you were attacked by a hardend street thug determined to take your head off? The best laid plans (techniques, tactics, and strategies) can, and often do fall appart when a 250lb ferious gorrila of a man throws his first punch.

[sherwinc]

There were a couple of Wing Chun guys who entered the earlier UFC's.

One match was a wing chun guy vs. Dave Benetau, a pioneer in MMA. Wingchun guy gets into his stance, gets taken down and submitted in under a minute.

Another match was a wingchun guy vs. Mark Kerr. Wingchun guy throws chain punches that bounce of Kerr. Kerr gets the clinch and drives a knee into wingchun guys head. WC guy gets KOd.

These were black sash ranked wingchun fighters.

HAW HAW HAW HAW

even thou your in an extremely blackier than black sash but if your WingChun is a Commercialized or even Fake - haw haw haw haw it is still worst than a crap kungfu...........

Note:
the kungfu that joins the UFC is the Commercialized category of kungfu.... perhaps UFC is a commercialized match..... UNDERSTAND!!!!!!

[sherwinc]

When was the last time you were attacked by a hardend street thug determined to take your head off? The best laid plans (techniques, tactics, and strategies) can, and often do fall appart when a 250lb ferious gorrila of a man throws his first punch.

none, why??????

cause it is better to win a fight without fighting....... and that is the first fighting principles of a true kungfu..... not by just reaching up to 12 rounds of fights but still both of the fighters are willing to test their skills for the next 13th rounds.........

[darrianation]

none, why??????

cause it is better to win a fight without fighting....... and that is the first fighting principles of a true kungfu..... not by just reaching up to 12 rounds of fights but still both of the fighters are willing to test their skills for the next 13th rounds.........

Somehow I thought it would be none! You talk as one with no real experience!

Don’t tell me what you think you can do to a hardened street thug, because until you meet a real criminal with real criminal intent in a dark alley and you have to fight for your life… until then all your training is just theory!

[darrianation]

Drills must always be executed 100%, full power attack, realistically aimimg for the target. If one cannot defend or attack properly in a drill what more in a real fight?

Kunghan

When I say some drills are less than 100% power it is because a newbie with no prior MA experience walks into your training hall, you do not start him being hit with 100% power in training drills. Also when I drill with smaller students…I am 5’11 230lbs (104kg), I have a pretty good one rep max bench press to boot, so when I drill with my 140lb (63kg) student I do not hit him full power. If I did I would put him in the hospital. Now he can hit me full (100%) power.

Also- The dead drills, I only use to introduce a new technique, or develop some needed attribute. However they play only a small part in training. For technical development of techniques we use the focus mitts, Thai pads, and, or heavy bag. Then we progress to the live drills.

[darrianation]

HAW HAW HAW HAW

even thou your in an extremely blackier than black sash but if your WingChun is a Commercialized or even Fake - haw haw haw haw it is still worst than a crap kungfu...........

Note:
the kungfu that joins the UFC is the Commercialized category of kungfu.... perhaps UFC is a commercialized match..... UNDERSTAND!!!!!!

There is a bit of truth in the commercialism thing, but quite hiding behind it. It’s like a shield to hide all the dings in your armor. Every time your art fails in combat or in the octagon you can say, “see it was a commercialized art”. You use this as a defense, so your art can never be proven ineffective. If you are not blaming it on commercialism then you are calling it fake. Blank practitioner losses against a MMA fighter so you explain it away as he practiced fake blank.

Stop it I am tired of it! I think if the TMAs went back to the way they were originally taught, teaching only a few students at a time in secret, we wouldn’t see it fail so damn often. The more we see the TMAs the more we realize their flaws. If they were like it used to be I think it would have better instruction but not necessarily anymore effective.

Again about the competitions or challenges I am tired of hearing “In real fill in the blank we do not compete because our art is to deadly". What I am hearing is “If we are restricted by a few rules like no biting or eye gouging then my art is useless”. That’s a crock of shit, if your art is ineffective without eye strikes and wind pipe stuff then that tells me that you practice a lot of worthless uneeded techniques. Why then should you not train soley in just windpipe crusing and eye strikes?

[Tom Yum]

I'd really like to see Emin Boztepe in an MMA match.

I've heard that he keeps himself in phenomenal condition. If he were to learn just enough grappling to defend the shoot, he could keep the fight standing up or in the clinch - then we could see wingchun in its most effective range from one of its top practicioners.

We could see how wingchun works against boxing/muaythai. He looks like he could be the same size as Yves Edwards. For the WC-ers who don't know, Yves has incredibly fast hands and deceptively powerfull kicks.

Could make a good fight.