Why are traditional martial arts seen as "ineffective"?

[CKD]

The Tiger Kung Fu guy lost to Gracie because he was fighting with an injured fist from an earlier boute. But inspite of that injury he was still able to land several blows to Gracie`s head openning a cut at Gracies eye brow. Gracie couldn`t execute his technique. The Kung fu guy was doing the right thing, stay low on his horse stance denying the grappler room to get in low at the same time landing his punches. In the end it was conditioning & stamina that won. Gracie proove that he was more condition & had more stamina to waite `till the kung fu guy got tired in fact it took about 5 min+ for Gracie to be able to win.

The kung fu guy was able to advance to that championship boute becuase he was able to defeat other UFC fighters. In fact, other grapplers, judokas & wrestlers perform poorly against strikers.

The bottom line is, majority of kung fu shools outside of China train not professionally for a ring career. Majority of them advance to pursue a non combat career.

Kung fu like the chinese people have live quietly & will just ignore all these criticism & continue to preserve the tradition & culture of kung fu. So, more power to all you.

UFC & its kind will come & go its survivability depends on how entertaining the managers can make of it, soon it will become just like WWF prefix fighting becuase its end goal is about business & entertainment not about martial art.

Same with muay thai, mauy thai traditional style of fighting is only available in Thailand. Here in the west modification have to be made like majority of muay thai boute here have remove the openning rituals of "dancing". Becuase it is not crowd pleasing.

What match are you talking about Keith Hackney? He learned some GJJ after the 1st UFC I believe. He didn't look very tired. He defended against takedowns pretty well, then Gracie clinched and started kneeing his head and then took him down. Didn't see any cut.That bout was the semi-final not the final. Can you name the wrestlers and judoka's that did poorly against strikers? I agree that the GJJ is the best suited grappling art for it since it is an aspect of an art. BJJ has several different aspects sport bjj, vale tudo bjj and self defensebjj. Since wrestling is just focused its form of competition you have to make adjustments but obviously it can do good. Here is a clip of Gracies in Action 2 http://www.gracieacademy.com/multime...tion2vid.shtml There is another clip of the first Gracies in action. You should buy them and check it out. Hammering forearms into attacks was defenitely attampted in the first UFCs.

[darrianation]

but they are still Human Dummies..... they did not emphasize Defense (forearm/hand smashing against opponents forearm/hand to defend attacks)

note:

defending and attacking by forearm smashing against opponents forearm like in this animated gif:

take a closer look at their forearms........

That is stupid! That is nothing more than a pre-arranged drill. It is not live or dynamic. It is predictable and they cooperate with each other. Nobody will leave their arms out like that when they punch. This stuff is fantasy very few people can pull this off in reality.

First of all there have been Kung Fu fighters in the UFCs as well as other MMA/NHB competitions, none of them have been able to make that stuff work.

What if while the CMA (Chinese martial arts) guy is doing his forearm thing and the other guy shoots for a takedown? A real opponent will not be punching so slowly and he will give you a lot more power. If you do “intercept” the jab, the cross is right there already on the way. And what about the clinch- Hell while the CMA guy is doing his fancy shit the other guy will just grab and knee, or low kick, or shoot for a takedown.

A MMA tourney is live, dynamic, and to some degree at least unpredictable. Things you think you can do, you may find falls all to hell when some guy is really trying to take your head off. You’ll find that your effective arsenal is a lot smaller then you think.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Nice pictures Sherwinc

But you seem to forget that the "Human Dummies" will take the punch to the head, and luach at you.
The puches lack any commitment simply slipping back will render it totally useless

And like Darr stated, good fighters don't leave their arms out there

[CKD]

Sherwinc in real life do you think they are going to try to hit you with slow, pre-arranged centerline punches that are slow enouph for you to slam your forearm against or do you think in real life they will be throwing big Tank Abbot "I am going to knock your head off" punches?

[Thai Bri]

I love Wing Chun. I love the way they obligingly keep their torsos upright and at the correct distance so that their techniques "work" on each other.

And don't pluck with me sherwinc!

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Your understanding of Martial Virtue is distorted.

Mine isn't. Other people's are.

My background in the MA has centered over years and years of study of martial virtue from different time periods, cultures, countries, and leaders.
So you might want to make sure the person you're talking to hasn't done all this before you say things.

[sherwinc]

Nice pictures Sherwinc

But you seem to forget that the "Human Dummies" will take the punch to the head, and luach at you.
The puches lack any commitment simply slipping back will render it totally useless

when you punch, you hit the left side of the solar plexus, no matter if you are big or small when you hit in the left side of your solar plexus with a strong punch, i think they cant laugh..... but a sealing the breath technique....

perhaps, a mantis hook to the eyes of the "Human Dummies" will cannot laugh at all......

especially the Southern Eagles Claw to the "Human Dummies" AdamsApple or WindPipe will not laugh at all......

And like Darr stated, good fighters don't leave their arms out there

i cant remember people often said that quote of Darr, i heard it thousand of times....... but...... HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW

i cant remember how many times did i heard it ever since before, you too heard it plenty of times......

[sherwinc]

Sherwinc in real life do you think they are going to try to hit you with slow, pre-arranged centerline punches that are slow enouph for you to slam your forearm against or do you think in real life they will be throwing big Tank Abbot "I am going to knock your head off" punches?

Note:

He who comes - MEET

He who widthdraws - FOLLOW

Loosing of a hand contact - RUSH-IN


Note:

Strike to any posture that is being presented.....

and if no posture that is being presented??????

Then strike where you see in motion


Note:

If you wont move, i wont move.....

If you move slightly, i move fist......


Note:

The shortest distance between point A to point B is a STRAIGHT LINE........

but if you cant defeat a highly skilled opponent thru straight lined attacks - then shift your attack to ANGLE ATTACKS.....

just reserve your CIRCLING / SEMI-CIRCLING ATTACKS to a far more superior opponent...... (but dont forget your Straight and Angle attacking techniques)



Just Follow this simple basic commandments of fighting - and in the end, you will truely find it why????????

[konghan]

The fact that people think "martial virtue" equals not training full contact, in all ranges, not grappling, etc.

and the fact that people think "Alive/full contact training" equals not thinking of spiritual matters, martial art virtues, etc.

Is beyond me.


In a perfect world I guess...

I guess I missed read your statement, the word "not" I missed.

[xyz]

You devoted to Traditional MA, you got Traditional MA. If you use 6 hours a day on style, how could you improve your fighting skills? However, if you train your jab and straight punch step by step and put them into fight, you will win more games. It is so simple.
Traditional MA is not something real. Do not be mislead by action movies pls.
I studied Traditional MA for a long time. It provided me power, mobility, everthing but how to cope with real fight.

[chris davis 200]

Hmm

Not all traditional martial arts look like those pre arranged drills.

Here is some traditional internal MA free form application. although if full power the initial strikes would down the opponent the application continues till one opponent is overrun or defenceless.

No pre arranged sequences here - just fighting.

http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com/artsofcombat/videos/push.avi

http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com/artsofcombat/videos/casque.avi

http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com/artsofcombat/videos/arno1.avi

This is Serge Augier inheritor of Tzurranmen or natural boxing, it is a traditional Chinese Internal Martial art.

cheers
chris

[akja]

but they are still Human Dummies..... they did not emphasize Defense (forearm/hand smashing against opponents forearm/hand to defend attacks)

note:

defending and attacking by forearm smashing against opponents forearm like in this animated gif:

take a closer look at their forearms........

Perfect example of a GOOD drill. I think people have a hard time UNDERSTANDING drills. ALL arts use drills!

If martial arts were 100% aliveness it would be called kickboxing or vale tudo, nothing more. Try and name an art that does not use drills.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Hey Sherwinc

letting someone pound your forearms is also being a "Human dummy"

And you say if you hit with a stong punch ...but none of the punches shown in the picture fall into that catagory

As for the adamsapple, ever heard of tucking in your chin? this makes hitting the adamsapple rather hard

now if all the "Human Dummies" would be leaning towards their oponent like the guy on the left it would be easy to poke a finger in their eyes but they won't do that( looks like he is sticking his but to the rear)

like I said, sliding backwards will put you out of range ( based on the pictures)so you wont even be able to Mantis hook the eyes or eagle claw the adamsapple

I only see one "Human dummy"and that's the guy on the left, dummies don't move

"Human Dummy" Remy Bonjaski would stay at a distance and then launch himself towards you with a flying knee (preferably to the head)


Don't get me wrong I think MT sucks just as much at SD as TMA do, no time is spend on specific selfdefence situations at all, it is all offensive
Guys who say MT is the best standup art, may be right but that doesn't make it good at selfdefence

MT lacks what TMA have and TMA lack what MT have

And both lack any realism for which Darrs training is needed

[konghan]

Hmm

Not all traditional martial arts look like those pre arranged drills.

Here is some traditional internal MA free form application. although if full power the initial strikes would down the opponent the application continues till one opponent is overrun or defenceless.

No pre arranged sequences here - just fighting.

http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com/artsofcombat/videos/push.avi

http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com/artsofcombat/videos/casque.avi

http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com/artsofcombat/videos/arno1.avi

This is Serge Augier inheritor of Tzurranmen or natural boxing, it is a traditional Chinese Internal Martial art.

cheers
chris

It is almost identical to ngo cho kun techniques. Lots of neck/head attack, fingers striking soft spots, hand parry follow up with close range attacks.

In set sparing it is done in a realistic manner, full power attack & hitting targets realistically. It is up to practitioners both attacker & defenders to be able to execute their techniques properly. If in a set sparing attack & defense cannot be executed properly one will have problem applying them in a real fight.

[Jazzshredder86]

I think, in general, TMA schools are ineffectively run because of money. To the defense of TMA, I have seen guys (especially people who study internal arts, ive noticed) that take it very seriously, and take fighting very seriously, and are effective fighters. I do BJJ and some Muay Thai, and I've gone to one or two schools where theyve given me a real run for my money. Why? Because it was their lifestyle, not their "art." They don't use "Tai Chi or Bagua Rules," they just do whatever they can to kick the crap out of you. And when we fought, it was completely no holds barred (i.e. crotch shoots and fishhooks were executed) with either full or medium contact (if we weren't goin full, we went bare knuckled). And yes the fights went to the ground sometimes, and yes I could catch them in submissions, but they weren't completely helpless on the ground. And these guys put more of a hurting on me physically than I ever put on them. But they were the minority; they had the benefit of a legitimately expert and practical teacher that taught only small classes....So it all depends on the teacher.

The main problem in america with martial arts, I believe, is that the mcdojo system caters to people that really have no urge to actually fight, and this includes BJJ. No soccer mom want to see her little kid get palm struck in the face at their TKD class. That why when most TMA places do spar, they do it in a touchy feely kind of way with lots of rules and protective gear so noone gets hurt. I've heard many times, even at my BJJ school, guys complain when someone lands a hard blow on them. Well, believe it or not ladies and gentlemen, we're not practicing cooking here, if someone hits you hard, hit them back, and if they don't like getting hit, then they shouldn't be learning how to fight. If every TMA school said that, they'd be in a lot better condition right now...

Anyways, sorry for ranting...