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Originally posted by Jazzshredder86
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Nothing to be sorry about, I don`t consider it ranting & I agree with what you said in fact if I may add. Majority of kung fu schools outside of China, students train not to become professional fighters & their parents have no plans to see their children pursue a martial career. I believe that if those western operated pro tournaments like UFC, Pride etc. will expand to China then there`s a good chance we`ll see real kung fu in action. The problem is I think the goverment of China is still paranoid with kung fu. Kung fu like religion has to be approve by the goverment. -
Yep I know what you mean, the school im talking about is actually run by a guy whos teacher now lives in Taiwan because of the cultural revolution and its attitude towards old martial arts and his taoist lifestyle. Actually, I did ask about the UFC and they happily pointed out that most of the "kung fu" masters back then are either young kids who won a few competitions or fat white guys with mullets. Not the people who studied it their whole lives in the older tradition, because most of them don't care about the UFC and have nothing to prove....
This is not to say that their way of learning to fight is the quickest or easiest, but thats not the point. I greatly admire many TMA teachers/students who really try to find greater fullfillment in their art and style, while at the same time trying to reach martial completeness. Thats something that s greatly lost on American culture with the advent of MMA and sport fighting; the philosophical backing behind many asian martial arts, which most modern martial artists find archaic and tacky, is something taken very seriously by the older stylists, and since most people dont take that seriously here, and im including both "masters" and students in the US, they're never going to understand their art and teach it at its maximum effectiveness because they're ignoring its context.Comment
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Hey jazzshredder, you brought up a recurring point. Some traditional martial artists make it their life to study their art, they live their art and they train with great intensity and reality.
Again, these are a minority but its only because these gentlemen have commited themselves to their art and train in dynamic situations that they are able to fight well.
Good point about the current state of TMA masters (mullet thing).Comment
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It is becuase here in the west they don`t look at MA as a tradition but as a means to make money, the franchise phenomena.Originally posted by Jazzshredder86Comment
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Exactly!!!!!! But we have no choice........Originally posted by Toudiyama[NL]
what i mean is......
"It is better to smash your forearm against opponents forearm compare to smashing your head to intercept opponents punches"
I'll rather choose to destroy my forearm rather than to destroy my head from enormous amount of fist landed made by your opponent
since in Human Dummy - USING YOUR HEAD TO BLOCK OPPONENTS PUNCHES
HAW HAW HAW HAW HAWComment
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Now taken this into account and looking at topfighters in MMA who tend to do the same, it's no wonder the amateur TMA guys get beatenOriginally posted by Tom Yum
Those TMA's that see their art as a way of life, usually aren't the kind of people that have a need to be in the spotlight and usually do not even want their style to have the most practitioners
Lets face it Pride is not a virtue in a lot of TMA's, so entering a MMA event for peronal fame and glory is something they are not very likely to do
Nor will theey have a need to "advertise" their art ( like the gracies did) to earn more money
If I look at myself, when I would enter such event, it wouldn't be to prve/show off my art, why would I, I'm not the founder, nor his successor.
It would be to prove myself, now that doesn't have to be in Pride or UFC or K1 or whatever PPV event, it would be a regional or national event
Guess what, there you will see guys with TMA backgrounds entering and doing reasonably well
In the Netherlands we have for instance a TKD fighter, who just added some groundfighting but for his standup relies on his TKD
Art A is better than Art B......so what. doesn't mean any of them are good does it
Nowadays the contactfighters make the same outragious claims TMA used to make and they don't even see that they are just as wrong
"Yeah but they are closer to real fights"...didn't close only count in horseshoepitching and handgrenates?Comment
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Exactly!!!!!! But we have no choice........Originally posted by Toudiyama[NL]
what i mean is......
"It is better to smash your forearm against opponents forearm compare to smashing your head to intercept opponents punches"
I'll rather choose to destroy my forearm rather than to destroy my head from enormous amount of fist landed made by your opponent
since in Human Dummy - USING YOUR HEAD TO BLOCK OPPONENTS PUNCHES
HAW HAW HAW HAW HAWComment
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good posts jazz,
But i think that there are some misconceptions about what constitutes a TMA. Most people think that a TMA is one where you walk aup and down doing Kata, punching the air, use old terms, bow at every posible occation and generally never spar for real.
I would say that this is tipical of mcdojo westernised schools that have eastern names and pretend to be classical or traditional.The main problem in america with martial arts, I believe, is that the mcdojo system caters to people that really have no urge to actually fight, and this includes BJJ. No soccer mom want to see her little kid get palm struck in the face at their TKD class. That why when most TMA places do spar, they do it in a touchy feely kind of way with lots of rules and protective gear so noone gets hurt.
I would estimate that 90% of schools claming a traditional herratige, especially in the US, are westernised dojo's made by western teachers to make money.
I class TMA's as those originating prior to the meiji restoration in Japan (koryu budo) or pre 1900's. elsewhere
this is what most in the TMA communiy adhear to. so Aikido for example would not be classed as a TMA but a modern Budo.
the defenition of TMA and mcdojo westernised rubbish is very blurred here for some reason.
Cheers
chrisComment
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akja
Quote- "Perfect example of a GOOD drill. I think people have a hard time UNDERSTANDING drills. ALL arts use drills!
If martial arts were 100% aliveness it would be called kickboxing or vale tudo, nothing more. Try and name an art that does not use drills."
I think people have a hard timing understanding what a dead drill is versus a live drill and what both are used for.
Drills are good but the problem is with these non-live drills is that too many schools spend too much time doing them, and not enough time on the live drills.
If the non-live drills cannot be carried over into live training then it is useless. I think these kinds of drills are okay for the beginner but the experienced students do not need to be doing them on daily or weekly basis. The more experienced guys need to be more concerned with effective application. Dead drills (non-live) teach a beginner a new technique, but don’t teach application. Just because you can do a drill like this fluently and make it look effortless doesn’t mean you can make it work against a non-compliant, thug trying to take your head off.
I have seen many a wing WC guys not be able to do this stuff against non-WC persons who wasn’t cooperating (I am sure there are a few that can, but I think they are the exception to the rule). Do you realize that improperly holding your arms out and by not committing the punches (as toudy said), as these guys do in this drill, and then over time performing it hundreds (or thousands) of times builds improper neuromuscular memorization. You train enough like this, guess what? You fight like this! You fight like this, and you will get your ass handed to you!
You use dead drills to teach a new student a new technique- this dead drill needs to have a live application, then once the student learns the new technique then it is time to move on to the live version of the drill. This insures the student can actually use it against a non cooperative thug who is trying to take his head off (or at least gives a better chance). The live training drills can also show you that there may be certain techniques that just don't work for the average martial artist on a consistent basis.Comment
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training versus application
I think that drills are very important in practice and that they do help you in real live application. The drill is to show you the physics of your movement, you can not expect any art to give you the exact angle and force equation for it to work on every situation. The arts, including their drills give you the tools to learn about your body and your enemies body, once you understand the meaning of the drill you can apply it to other areas of your style or even to other styles. Because each art is relative to physics and physics is based on rules that we can not bend.
I do not agree with the statement that performing the same drill every day will not yield positive results in live application. The purpose of constant practice is so that your reaction is natural, and more importantly for Chi Kung and Hungar (tiger crane) remaining loose is important. To stay loose and fight naturally requires many hours of practice, especially drills. BUT like all martial arts and many other parts of our lives, not everyone learns the same way. Some will find drills boring and not learn from them, while others learn more just thinking about it for a few minutes before they try it out.
Sorry for the length of this response, but the use of drills is important for all Martial Artists, each drill if done enough times will yield insight and that insight can help you polish your technique, and your technique is all you have when you are in a real fight. If what you are trying to acheive does not require constant practice then your goals are not set high enough.Comment
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The bottom line is it all depends on what the teaching procedures or programs of the school is. Usually after drills, the next step is to work on the bag to put power on that pucnhes & kicks. Then move foward to sparing to test & work on application of techniques, ex. punch-punch-kick-sweep or clicnh-takedown. But how do one get a class of 20+ students work only one one bag if class is only for 1 hr?Originally posted by darrianation
Some schools provide special training to students who are interested in participating in pro type tournaments and it will take a lot of commitment by both the student & the teacher as well as responsibility to any serious injuries that may occur.
Training for street fighting is different from training for a ring tournament. Preparing for street battle one will concentrate on going for a quick "kill" like attacking the throat, groin, grabbing a weapon & etc. For ring tournament one would train depending on the rules of that particular tournamnet ex. in muay thai its about kicking, kneeing, elbowing & a bit of punching no intentional grappling or any wrestling techniques. Head butting will automatically disqualify a fighter or any of those kind of techniques. Same with TKD, same with MMA. A fighter train within what is allowed.
And true tournaments are as close as one get get to test one skill but in this case many tournaments are more geared for commercialism than MA.Comment
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Originally posted by konghan
No problem. Sorry for being a bit of an ass myself.
RyuComment
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I think we are getting closer to the same page but there still is some things separating TMAs from modern self defense.Originally posted by konghan
I think many people have made the point that the TMAs get less respect these days do to commercialism and I think this is one of the biggest problems but modern self-defense is beginning to go the same way and sooner or later some may face the same fate.
The problem once broken down, we see that once brutal combat arts such (karate, KF, and others) have become bastions for kids, and fat overweight 40 year olds who really don’t want to put the effort into training hard and intensely. People in the average karate class don’t want to do a 100 hundred pushups when they make a mistake or risk getting their nose broke or shoulder dislocated.
The truth of the matter is- SELF-DEFENSE is more important than training for tournaments like the UFCs, pride, K1, or a MT matches, so why isn’t the training for self-defense as hard or as intense? Commercialism!
I think in real self-defense the training needs to be every bit as rigorous as the MT fighter’s or the UFC fighter’s training. I don’t think the average person needs to spend the same amount of time learning and practicing SD as the MT, boxers, and the UFC guys need do to be successful but the training should be just as intense.
The things that self-defense and martial sport have in common or should have in common are mental and physical toughness.
How many people do you suppose would be doing TMAs if this were the case? Not as many as do them now, but like it or not this is why the TMAs suffer from a shortage of respect.
There are groups, and people out there training hard risking the broken noses and doing the 100s of pushups that are hitting each other hard doing what it takes, not so they can fight in the ring, but to be successful in the street! The average dojo cannot compare to these schools.
While many of today’s TMAs are still teaching basics drills and outdated weapons and hoping their students can defend themselves in the simple assault category, modern combatives are teaching their students how to operate successfully in the lethal force arena.Comment
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I have three categories for drills and all have their purposeOriginally posted by angakh2
1) (Phase one) Dead drills- these drills are for teaching newbie’s or for learning new techniques or combinations of techniques. They develop proper technique (physics) and timing.
* I think the thai pads and the heavy bags are better for developing proper technique than the dead drills.
2) (Phase 2) Semi live drills these are like the ones that chris davis 200 showed. They have the main ingredience of the live drills but lack the same commitment, and generally the defender knows what attack is coming. This is meant to be a bridge between dead drills and live drills.
3) (Phase 3) live drills- These are done at full speed and at 85-100% power. These drills are unpredictable, and dynamic. Usually the defender will not know what attack is coming. For the more experienced students the majority of training should be in live the training category. These are commited drills!
I find the more time we spend doing the live drills (phase3) the better I am and the better my students are. I spend less than 10% of my drill time on dead drills if that much.Comment
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Training no doubt should be rigoruse but as you have pointed out, many students are not really 100% ready or commetted on such kind of training also again as you have said, many MA schools have become more of a "childrens` playground".Originally posted by darrianation
MT & those type of training are more geared for price fighting not exactly for self defense. Training intensely goes hand in hand with self defense. Even boxing with its limited technique of that powerful punch is al so a good form of self defense.
The only difference between street & ring fighting is that in the streets most of the time we`ll be up against a non MA figther & their are many options of survival including using weapons or running away. In the ring one is up against a train fighter & the use of extreme force is limited.
And other wors each schools will teach according to what their program is about:
1. MT, kickboxing is geared for full contact tournament training.
2. KF, TKD, Karate etc. most are geared to train the basics of self defense in a "safe environment"
3. Some MA ( underground) train for real street fighting stuff.
In ngo cho kun, we train in weapons that are real, real in weight, real in sharpness & length. To say that weapons training is useless is not true. Weapons training develop your arm, shoulder & leg strength a weapon must be train to the point that it "becomes" a part of your body. Proper way to slice, stab, parry, block.
if you are refering to performance weapons like what the wushu are using then I agree with you.
In third world countries like the Phil. weapons are still useful. Many locals here still weild a machette or a "balisong" fan knife. Me, personally when I was still in the Phil. I stashed knives not balisong I prefer hunting knives, then at home I have my real chinese broadsword so if my neighbor druggie should come out with his machette I will bring out my broadsword. And because they know that I`m a MA & can weild a weapon they dare not mess with me ( w/ great humility). Years later I added to my arsenel a 9 mm. But now here in Canada I gave up my 9mm but still kept my sword in case somebody should come after me with a baseball bat.
MA self defense is real about having an advantage over your enemy.
In fact if TDM will go back to its original training meathod of rigorousness & toughness the school will not survive but it might survive in the military.
Remember most parents when they want their children to enrol in a MA what are the things they`er looking for first? safety, safety, & safety. It is just too bad that there are those who are really interested to learn the real MA that get mixed in with the "general public".
Modern self defense are geared for people who are willing to go through the intense training of what orignal martial art is all about. Plus it is more for ring tournament.
TMA on the other is about preserving that tradition & history that brought martial art where we are now.
Modern martial art on the other hand are for "macdojo" people.Comment
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