Why are traditional martial arts seen as "ineffective"?

[darrianation]

[QUOTE=Tom Yum]I agree with most of Excessive Force's quote, but its a bit polar.

I have met guys in traditional martial arts that are fit, tough and really good fighters in systems like Tangsoo Do, Pukalan Tjimande, Kenpojitsu, and Tukong Musool to name a few. They weren't rough and tough in appearance, but they've developed focus, toughness and stamina like you wouldn't believe. They are average Joe's who have paid their dues.

And how many have you met that aren't? Tom I here what you’re saying but the truth of the matter is the average Joe public doesn’t want to go to karate class do 500 push-ups, get his tooth knocked out, or a shoulder dislocated. People on average don’t want to do the training necessary to learn self-defense even if they did have the time. MAs instructors even when they mean well have to keep student’s in the schools. So the training reflects that.


I have been in a lot of TMA schools, now I haven’t been through all the doors of every style, or every dojo but I have been to enough to know that a good majority train very inefficiently for self-defense. They don’t train intensely enough, nor do they train using the right methodologies. Now I am sure there are exceptions to the rule, but there are not enough of them to restore the lost credibility. I have given details on this in other threads, so I am not going into detail here.

Also there are some tuff matha’ f***ers out there in the TMAs, but I doubt the TMAs made them this way. That’s something that can only be trained so far the rest you are born with. There are people out there tough enough to whip most our asses with no training at all. So when one of these tough ass holes joins a TKD club and kicks the shit out of a burglar carrying a knife lets not give TKD total credit, or what ever TMA he’s in. The credit belongs to the tough ass hole.

Lets not forget instructors need bodies to fill their schools, and the more the better so they have to market to as large of audience ass possible and this brings the quality down.

However, the average person works for 8 hours a day or more and may or may not have family responsibilities. They need a year or two to slowly develop coordination, fitness, balance, proper relaxation etc. Then, once they've built up a foundation then they can get into some serious training and kick butt.

I know all about this- I work 40 hrs a week sometimes more and I am married with two kids. But I still spend 2 hour a week on my heavy bag, 4-5 hours a week in the gym, go spar with the Karate school twice a week and teach a self-defense class once a week. Believe sometime it is a nightmare trying to meet family, training, and hobby obligations. But if you want it bad enough....QUOTE]

[konghan]

Jeez.... I have been more unlucky than you think! In my search for an effective fighting art I have walked through quite a few doors! I'm not basing this on my experiences at just one club you know!

I bet all the doors that you enter to were all here in North America right? In fact I was advice to teach "soft" here & if I want to teach sparing or tournament kung fu I would be required to get a $5million insurance liablity policy. And if I `m gonna teach real kung fu weapons the insurance needs` to be higher. How much are those combat schools charging (MT, BJJ etc.)? $100.00+? why, becuase they have high insurance cost. Other MA have their hands tied against all kinds of "modern" liabilities.

Anyway, the one thing I notice that is missing in many modern MA schools including in their students that they produce is the " MARTIAL VIRTUE".
Many martial masters or fighters now adays would like very much to be remember for their combat skills & feats but in ngo cho kun all the great masters prefer to be remembered for their healing abilities in chinese medicine helping those who are less fortunate.

[Tom Yum]

Anyway, the one thing I notice that is missing in many modern MA schools including in their students that they produce is the " MARTIAL VIRTUE".
Many martial masters or fighters now adays would like very much to be remember for their combat skills & feats but in ngo cho kun all the great masters prefer to be remembered for their healing abilities in chinese medicine helping those who are less fortunate.

Virtue is an important trait in East Asia, especially China. There's nothing wrong with teaching and healing from Chinese medicine and martial arts.

The issue is making a claim that X-style gong fu is do deadly, it can't be done in tournament. Then when you're invited to watch a class, there's no sparring or dynamic training done. Drills are ok, but there should be some realism too if you are going to make a claim that X-style of gong fu is ultra deadly.

[Tom Yum]

And how many have you met that aren't? Tom I here what you’re saying but the truth of the matter is the average Joe public doesn’t want to go to karate class do 500 push-ups, get his tooth knocked out, or a shoulder dislocated. People on average don’t want to do the training necessary to learn self-defense even if they did have the time. MAs instructors even when they mean well have to keep student’s in the schools. So the training reflects that.

I think you should train with intensity, but avoid serious injury. You could avoid loosing teeth by wearing a mouth guard and tapping out before you feel tearing in your rotator cuff.

On another note, I think most people would get turned off by mild injuries like bruises, bloodied noses and busted lips. I got knocked out by a right cross and it was the strangest sensation. My sight went blank for what seemed about 30 seconds (actual time ~ 2 seconds) and I saw this big purple flash. I lost control of my legs and they just went to jelly as I stumbled into a wall!! I got hit again in the head and realized I was still fighting!!!

Have you ever been KOd? It was from a guy about your size (I'm about 30 lbs lighter mind you). It was as freaky as a roller coaster ride, but a barrier that I had to go through.

I think most people would be turned off by this.

[konghan]

Virtue is an important trait in East Asia, especially China. There's nothing wrong with teaching and healing from Chinese medicine and martial arts.

The issue is making a claim that X-style gong fu is do deadly, it can't be done in tournament. Then when you're invited to watch a class, there's no sparring or dynamic training done. Drills are ok, but there should be some realism too if you are going to make a claim that X-style of gong fu is ultra deadly.

Well, I know that in our ngo cho kun, from my late sifu Lo King Hui his father Dr. Lo Yan Chui and also the late master Yup Ching Hai, master Tan Ka Hong or Lo Ban teng in fact the whole linage of ngo cho kun from its founder have never made such claim. Maybe in other kung fu styles?

And all of them have one thing in common, their virtue & their desire to serve the community although all of them have survive the turmoulteous time of civil war in China, WWII, racial unrest in South East Asia. And all of them have their own actual combat feats, but they choose to be remembered as community leaders helping mend fences between warring groups & using their medical abilities in serving the communities medical needs.

MORAL VIRTUES & MENDING FENCES

[konghan]

I think you should train with intensity, but avoid serious injury. You could avoid loosing teeth by wearing a mouth guard and tapping out before you feel tearing in your rotator cuff.

On another note, I think most people would get turned off by mild injuries like bruises, bloodied noses and busted lips. I got knocked out by a right cross and it was the strangest sensation. My sight went blank for what seemed about 30 seconds (actual time ~ 2 seconds) and I saw this big purple flash. I lost control of my legs and they just went to jelly as I stumbled into a wall!! I got hit again in the head and realized I was still fighting!!!

Have you ever been KOd? It was from a guy about your size (I'm about 30 lbs lighter mind you). It was as freaky as a roller coaster ride, but a barrier that I had to go through.

Your statement remind of an incident in our kwoon when I was still a student in 1979. Two of my schoolmates were sparing & the other guy deliver a powerful punch to the chest of the other, he got hurt some kind of chest bruise ( although they were wearing chest protector). The following day, the injured guy came to the kwoon with his parents. His parents were reprimanding our Master as to why he let something like this happened. It was a good thing my master didn`t got intimidated he told them, "this is a martial art school people will get hurt here if you don`t want your son to train here you are free to take him out of here."

[darrianation]

I bet all the doors that you enter to were all here in North America right? In fact I was advice to teach "soft" here & if I want to teach sparing or tournament kung fu I would be required to get a $5million insurance liablity policy. And if I `m gonna teach real kung fu weapons the insurance needs` to be higher. How much are those combat schools charging (MT, BJJ etc.)? $100.00+? why, becuase they have high insurance cost. Other MA have their hands tied against all kinds of "modern" liabilities.

Anyway, the one thing I notice that is missing in many modern MA schools including in their students that they produce is the " MARTIAL VIRTUE".
Many martial masters or fighters now adays would like very much to be remember for their combat skills & feats but in ngo cho kun all the great masters prefer to be remembered for their healing abilities in chinese medicine helping those who are less fortunate.

These are just excuses to justify bad training habits and modalities.

As for the doors I have walked through most of them were in the U.S. The only Martial arts training I have done outside the U.S. Were in Japan, and Thailand. However I do not put Muay Thai into the same category as TMAs because the have very different goals and training modalities than any TMA I have studied.

First you have to hit stuff, and you have to hit stuff that hits back, and you have to hit stuff that hits back but in an unpredictable way, and you have to work realistic dynamic scenarios. This is the core method of learning to protect yourself in self-defense.

Doing pretty katas/forms, doing pre-arranged sparring, and predictable defenses is inefficient and not practical for self-defense. Doing light and or limited contact is inefficient; studying the soft stuff is inefficient. Doing slow orchestrated partner drills is inefficient. Training to heal the psyche or to become one with nature is inefficient for the goal of self-defense.

I am not saying that eastern medicine, culture, or spiritualism is bad, just that it is not efficient for self-defense training.

[darrianation]

I think you should train with intensity, but avoid serious injury. You could avoid loosing teeth by wearing a mouth guard and tapping out before you feel tearing in your rotator cuff.

On another note, I think most people would get turned off by mild injuries like bruises, bloodied noses and busted lips. I got knocked out by a right cross and it was the strangest sensation. My sight went blank for what seemed about 30 seconds (actual time ~ 2 seconds) and I saw this big purple flash. I lost control of my legs and they just went to jelly as I stumbled into a wall!! I got hit again in the head and realized I was still fighting!!!

Have you ever been KOd? It was from a guy about your size (I'm about 30 lbs lighter mind you). It was as freaky as a roller coaster ride, but a barrier that I had to go through.

I think most people would be turned off by this.

We always wear protective gear. And it is important to go hard and to train with intensity, but with in reason. We do practice safety but it can be a thin line sometimes.

As far as being knocked out? No, I have never been totally knocked out but I have been stunned, seen the flashes of light and have my knees go week, but I have never been downed by a blow, slips and falls yes, thrown, or taken down yes, but not from a blow.

Injuries from training and fighting: I have lost teeth; I have had several black and swollen eyes, a fractured cheek bone. I have had ribs broken, a toe broken, 2 or 3 broken fingers, slipped discs in my neck, a torn thumb ligament and a rotator cuff tear injury x2, as well as other various strains and sprains. All from either training or fighting in the ring.

Injuries from street fights: Lots of cuts and bruises, a broken wrist, a lost tooth, and a concussion but I did not loose consciousness even after the concussion I continued to fight until my attacker was no longer a threat.

So you see I have done my share of bleeding in training, in the ring, and in the street.

[Tom Yum]

Most people on the street either wind up and throw one bomb at a time or throw arm punches that sting but bounce off you. You must have been in some serious life-death type fights, man.

[darrianation]

Most people on the street either wind up and throw one bomb at a time or throw arm punches that sting but bounce off you. You must have been in some serious life-death type fights, man.

Yea I have been involved in some real doozies. I have been involved in criminal assaults where people were trying to kill me. Not just a drunk at the bar or a loud mouth at a party, though I have been in a few of those too.

One was a 5 on 1. This is where my wrist was broken, a long with a few other injuries. This was a criminal assault they tried to rob me. Honestly if I would have cooperated with them I probably would have been okay but I was young, dumb, and full cum, and I resisted.

During the fight I was hit several times with a metal garbage can (not in the head I was able to protect my head), a metal bicycle lock, and knife (I was stabbed badly just below my left elbow, and a shallow minor slice on my hip). Of course I was kicked and punched to many times to count, I was knocked or tackled to the ground a couple of times but I was able to get back up.

Anyway they would have killed me, literally beaten me to death if weren’t for a Good Samaritan who was passing by and saw what was going on and pulled a gun from his glove compartment.

I credit this guy with saving my life. 18 years later I still talk to him every now and then. I was a black belt in karate and had 3 years of Muay Thai training under my belt by this time. So, when people tell me they defeated 3, 4, or 5 guys in a fight using their MAs I am more than just a bit skeptical. However I was much better off with my training then I would have been without it. I began to carry firearms full time after that.

[konghan]

These are just excuses to justify bad training habits and modalities.

As for the doors I have walked through most of them were in the U.S. The only Martial arts training I have done outside the U.S. Were in Japan, and Thailand. However I do not put Muay Thai into the same category as TMAs because the have very different goals and training modalities than any TMA I have studied.

First you have to hit stuff, and you have to hit stuff that hits back, and you have to hit stuff that hits back but in an unpredictable way, and you have to work realistic dynamic scenarios. This is the core method of learning to protect yourself in self-defense.

Doing pretty katas/forms, doing pre-arranged sparring, and predictable defenses is inefficient and not practical for self-defense. Doing light and or limited contact is inefficient; studying the soft stuff is inefficient. Doing slow orchestrated partner drills is inefficient. Training to heal the psyche or to become one with nature is inefficient for the goal of self-defense.

I am not saying that eastern medicine, culture, or spiritualism is bad, just that it is not efficient for self-defense training.

You know what, nothing is efficient, not even the USA military. No matter how much fighting be it tournamnet fighting, duel fighting, or all out war it`s still not efficient.

The USA military is the greatest example, they come up with all kinds of sumulated training & they try to make it as realistic as it can be but when the real war comes everything changes.

All the great masters of ngo cho kun have one thing in common & that is not to proove that their martial skill is superior in killing but more on their desire to bring understanding among different groups. And that fighting should be the last resort.

The only problem here is that, which I can understand that there are those who only desire the warrior spirit of supremacy & nothing will satisfy them except seeing their foes & competitors vanguished from the face of the earth.

Thats` why kung fu in essence is about self defense not about aggression. But when it comes to push & shove, kung fu like China the nation will have the ability to stand on its own as have been proven time & time again. From the time of the mongols, the manchus, WWII, communist war, Korean war & Vietnam war the "weak" have triumph over overwhelming enemy fire power.

[tekshow]

i think the reason 'traditional' martial arts are failing is because they aren't with us in their full bloom. walk into any tai chi school for example and usually you'll be treated to the Yang form only and some other minor tivialities. Not that the Yang form is trivial, but where's the push hands, the qigong, the yichuan, and the other tai chi families that are necessary to compliment the form?


like most things in the world, and especially in the states, we have watered down versions of everything. I queried my Sifu about this one day and he said "even when i trained in china, there were the same amount of frauds there."

i believe it. you wonder why these arts get a bad name, but people have so many collective negative experiences at McDojo's and with people who can't deliver what they claim and it leaves a very bad taste in our industry.

i met a man who claimed to train in Thailand. He said their muay thai regimen included a 6 hour workout and you always had to keep your hands up eyebrow level, even if drinking water. He seemed credible, he had a good thai rythm and step, but his hands were always by his waste, his thai kick didn't 'work' and he was easily knocked off balance. So even close to the development center, he wasn't getting that good of instruction.


heck, even last week these two guys come in and one claims he's been taking jujitsu for 7 years. What does he do? He asks my freakin' girlfriend to spar once i leave the room!! Talks about how good he is. She should have sparred him, i know she could have dropped him down a peg. We just waited though because they came into the BJJ class and i got to toss him around a bit anyway, but i was friendly about it. Just enough to show him that 7 years of his ninjitsu wans't worth it.

i really want to come to a place where i know i'm not wasting my time, that's all. there will always be people out there better than me and i can live with that. What i can't live with is wondering wether or not i'm attaining real effective skill, and yes, it IS out there. There are people of such skill that when you train with them you can just see how they can take on and dispatch anyone you think is of a high skill level.


the more i train with people like Guru Dan Inasontos and next month hopefully working with Ajarn Chai Sirisute will further propel my belief that quality martial arts still exist in the world. i think if you're a good student, and you're constantly assessing that you don't know everything, you'll always be on the look out for somethign that can help you further.

there's some crazy stuff out there i wouldn't believe if i didn't see it with my own eyes, and that's me, i just need proof.

like how Punong Guro Master Villabrille could cut his arm an inch deep at a seminar and then heal his wound immediately. Or the fact he trained with a BLIND filipino princess as one of his early stick/escrima instructors. BLIND!!! this stuff is out there!! you just have to find it.


one of my friends is one of my sifu's oldest students. he's excelled through all the internal and external arts my sifu instructs and is now learning the Buhhda Dit Da. The guy can put his hand flat on a brick against a hard surface, and just by sinking down an inch, the brick shatters.


these people don't want to be in UFC or see any reward from that. i THINK they want human connectivity, to change the world a little bit at a time. if you're not a good student and have a desire to learn and be good both in your charecter and your art, i don't think you'll ever be able to discover this.


i don't know if i will either, but who's to say i can't try


good luck to you on your path.
joe

[Thai Bri]

It is such a coincidence that NONE of these mysterious supermen EVER want to fight in a full contact or MMA type match.

For me the fact that learning to figt is wrapped up in our egos and feelings of security. So much so that we all want to feel able to look after ourselves. But many don't want to put the necessary blood, sweat and tears in. So they invent their little day dream world, and their followers pay to join in the fantasy.

[darrianation]

You know what, nothing is efficient, not even the USA military. No matter how much fighting be it tournamnet fighting, duel fighting, or all out war it`s still not efficient.

The USA military is the greatest example, they come up with all kinds of sumulated training & they try to make it as realistic as it can be but when the real war comes everything changes.

All the great masters of ngo cho kun have one thing in common & that is not to proove that their martial skill is superior in killing but more on their desire to bring understanding among different groups. And that fighting should be the last resort.

The only problem here is that, which I can understand that there are those who only desire the warrior spirit of supremacy & nothing will satisfy them except seeing their foes & competitors vanguished from the face of the earth.

Thats` why kung fu in essence is about self defense not about aggression. But when it comes to push & shove, kung fu like China the nation will have the ability to stand on its own as have been proven time & time again. From the time of the mongols, the manchus, WWII, communist war, Korean war & Vietnam war the "weak" have triumph over overwhelming enemy fire power.

If you are trying to say nothing is perfect than you are right. However there inefficient ways of training and then there are better more efficient ways of training.

There is no one on the face of the planet that is invincible or can win every fight (just because some fighter has gone undefeated doesn’t mean someone out there somewhere couldn't beat him). There is no perfect system either. There are some systems that can teach you self-defense faster while training you to be both proficient and effective.

But in general it takes years to learn Karate proficiently, it takes even longer to be proficient in Kung Fu. However you can learn to be proficient and effective with defensive firearms in just a few weeks, or with 6-8 hours a week (2 hours a day 3-4 days a week) if trained efficiently you can be proficient and effective in under a year in empty hands.

You guys want to overcomplicate this shit. Learning to fight and being proficient and effective isn't rocket science, its physical and psychological science, and relatively easy if you understand training for the goal of self-defense there are simple steps, drills, and techniques that can teach you in a short amount of time. It may not be pretty, subtle, or extensive but it can be effective. I have seen good boxers come off the street and a year later their taking heads off in the ring, of course as time goes by they get better with experience but that doesn’t take away the fact they were good to go in 6 months to a year.

There is nothing wrong with learning MAs for a hobby, to get in shape, to learn holistic healing, or eastern medicine, spiritual, or cultural reasons, but then to turn around and say look how deadly it is at fighting and how effective it is at self-defense is a farce when you compare it to other systems that are self-defense specific.

[tekshow]

perhaps that's the differnece in training to fight, and just these dream world types. don't get me wrong, you need to train to fight, you need to put in the blood and the sweat and the tears, but that doesn't mean competing in UFC is going to bring you any kind of honor other than commercial excess. i don't need to step into an event sponsored by "the king of beers" in order to perpetuate and participate in martial arts and be a good player.


if you really know you are training in a true martial art AND you test it regularly with as many skilled people you can find, i don't think you necessarily ever need to enter the ring.


for instance Ajarn Chi holds a Muay Thai camp in Oregon every year or so. It's not invite only i believe, but it's pretty damn close. they'll do some famous thai drills, but one of the things they do is where one guy is in the center of circle and a fresh player jumps in every 3 minutes for a few rounds. (i'm sure we've all played a form of this one...)


erik paulson of MMA fame was there last time my friend attended, imagine going up against him, and then directly afterwards you have to fight one of his teachers from oregon Punong Guro Leonard Trigg.


train to fight, but that doesn't always mean you've got to enter a licensed competition to make yourself a good fighter.