my opinion on jkd,and people.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Just for humor's sake I once worked with a little bodybuilder guy in a GNC once. He always had a smile on his face when bigger guys would talk about fighting and MA. I once asked him about it. He said that his self defense was in his gun.
I smiled and asked "Do you have your gun with you now?"
He smiled back and said "Yep, right here." Then lifted his shirt to show a holstered colt 9mm! LOL!! Opened my eyes.

Even though my training is very much similar to NHB these days, I still carry at least a tactical folder with me wherever I go. But I will use it for other jobs unrelated to fighting.
Knives aren't the be all end all, but they're definitely out there, and you gotta watch it. But other than that I agree with sparring realistically and staying away from the "it's a sport" argument.
But having said THAT (man this fence is starting to hurt my butt) the street has its own type of atmosphere. What you need to be preparing and learning for OTHER than athletic training is first strike set up and defense, de-escalation principles, semantics, visual awareness, reading body language, etc. Sometimes when someone comes up nose to nose to you and you strike first without warning and follow up with heavy combos the fight will be over before it starts. The guy might even be a better fighter than you, who knows? He won't get the chance to find out. Real streetfighting is not honorable, sneaky, and unfair.
HOWEVER.... being able to fight athletically is a prerequisite. Who do you think would have a better "first strike"? A trained boxer or someone who punched air all his life?

Ryu

Ryu

[wcskgh]

missed again

ok, dont go to a ucla wrestler, go to any divison college, the guy usually wrestled for three years in high school, and a few in college, this makes them pros? also your reference to me losing because it was sport, is not true, we went balls out, real fighting,and i got picked up time after time. sure i landed some, but not enough. and your comment on a krambit, GOOD LUCK. do you always carry a krambit? and yoiu you really able to cut everyone you fight, that concept is a joke, thats like the non martial arts guys who say" i'll just shoot you, then wears your karate" but most of these guys dont have a gun anywhere

[PentjackSilat]

If you are referring to my earlier posts, then you have completely misundertstood me! If you are not, then I apologize for what I am about to say.
Nowhere in my post did I ever say not to test yourself through fighting. As a matter of fact if you look at my profile you will see I am an amateur thai boxer who fights all the time. Call me a coward all you wish! Do you step in the ring and fight?
Let me tell you a little bit of why I am only amateur. Because I use what Bill Murray called "Baby Steps" in Where's Bob? Step one: Amateur Muay Thai. Step two: Pro Muay Thai. Step Three: Beginner submission matches. Step Four: Intermediate Submissions. Step Five: Advanced Submissions. Step Six: Amateur NHB. Step Seven: Pro NHB. Step Eight: Go into a bar and piss some people off.
I firmly believe that you must compete to increase your skills. What I don't agree with is people who think that fighters who stop at Step Seven are the end all of the discussion in self protection. Yes! Pro NHB is the closest way to safely test yourself. Once you have mastered that, then you go further. Too many people mistakenly believe that just because you can do Pro NHB, you can whoop everyone in every street situation. Pro NHB is a means to learning to defend oneself. Too many white belts and Pro NHB fighters see it as the end. That once you can roll for ten minutes on a mat and not be tapped, you are the sh*t. That is so wrong. For instance, just because I can whoop ass in amateur Thai, doesn't mean I can whoop ass in amateur NHB. Well guess what Matlock? NHB and Street are about as different as amateur Muay Thai and amateur NHB!

[doubleouch]

Amen brother! The most sensible thing I've heard in awhile.

[thekuntawman]

to say that sparring with your martial art if you want to test the effectiveness and develop it as a useful skjll, to call this "sport" and have nothing to do with fighting is a cowardly way to avoid testing yourself. it is the closest thing you can get to the real thing, sparring, and unless you are in the street fighting with people you dont know, there is no drill you can do that is better than a match.

if you practice the philippine martial art, you are going against what makes the philippine martial art practical by avoiding matches. do you thing every manong around only fought in the death match? no way, they had to have matches around with other fighters to developed his skill before he tries to fight a real match. trust me, if sport is not good for fighting ability, those silly drills are worser.

"sport", if you want to call it, that gives you the chance to see if you can take a punch. if lets you see how hard it is to hit a guy who doesnt want to be hit. it also gives you the chance to learn how to think fast, because in a streetfight you dont know if you are going to have to fight one guy, if he has a weapon, how will he fight you, standing up or on the ground, etc. sport gives you all these benefit, that anything you can do in a classroom cannot.

the important thing is to fight with a large variety of people, many who are very very aggressive. your classmate aint going to do that for you, or your friends. you need the stranger to be in front of you to develop your courage. classroom sparring is to comfortable, even full contact. thats why the best trainers bring guys from outside to fight his fighters. see this is where the seminar is losing you guys, too much technique and "simulated", too many excuses why your shouldnt fight (sport is unreal, UFC has to many rules, etc). THESE ARE EXCUSES.

the warrior way is to test himself in combat, and as a warrior you have to find combat today, and the sparring match is the best place and safest place to find it.

[Jari]

Originally posted by PentjackSilat
If you put someone in Karate, and someone in Thai, the Thai Boxer would whoop ass.

Another instance showing my point: karate techniques don't work outside of their doctrine. Their doctrine is for situations, where you are usually standing unassumingly and get attacked by a street thug without pre-warning. Pre-arranged fights where fighters lift their hands up in protection and start dancing around is not the environment where karate techniques were designed to be used (this is why tournament sparring has widely been the death of traditional karate - it doesn't work on that turf! People had to modify karate methods to work in the alien environment and making the erroneous judgement that traditional methods don't work at all.). Thus they don't work optimally in that environment. See karate punch for instance! Who in their right minds would tell a thai boxer that he should load his fist to his hip before punching? Nobody! That is for the situation where you are holding someone in a lock or hold, revealing an unprotected neck or other vital area, and then punching - often with the hand that first held the lock or hold (example: you take a wrist lock with right hand, you assist/punch with left hand, then left hand grabs shoulder or sleeve, right hand releases wrist and punches. There is a place for the punch from the hip!). Now, take these karate techniques and modify them so you hold the hands up high like in thai boxing and go try your stuff on the thai boxing turf. End result? Disaster! You tried to use a fishing rod and line to catch a deer in the woods, when you should have used a hunting rifle. The fishing rod is for when you want to catch fish from water.

This is what I was talking about when I meant that different techniques are based on different concepts (fishing rod vs. hunting rifle) and though you might catch some fish with the riffle, you'd be better off with the rod. And when in the woods, leave the rod and bring the rifle.

Another example: Wing Chun methods work when your whole fighting is based on the concept of controlling the centre line. All your techniques are designed to either work on the centre line, or regain lost centre line. Now, try to mix your Karate with Wing Chun. Karate techniques are designed to work under a whole different concept. Often they don't care squat about the centre line. Now if you know Wing Chun well, then study some karate to add to your skill set, the result may be a disaster. When you use a karate technique within your Wing Chun concept, you will usually lose the centre-line. Then you seem to be losing and have to regain the centre line. Then whenever you use karate techniques again, you lose the centre line again. You may quickly decide that karate techniques don't work. But the problem is that it was just a case of your fighting concept mismatching that of karate. The same karate techniques work wonders for the other guy who is fighting within the karate concept of tactics.

This is why, to try add something from another art to your skill set, you NEED to understand enough of the art itself that you know what concept doctrine it is based on and how (if at all) can you make those methods work within yours. You cannot just "pick a technique and start using it outside of concept".

[J.K.]

first off, if you look at a ucla wrestler your looking at someone that is practically a professional in the sport of wrestling. Have a wrestler who only has 5 years of wrestling fight someone who has 10 years of kali and see who wins. If you match that same wrestler up with someone who has spent the same amount of time in martial arts - the situation would be different. Look at the UFC - wrestle yes they do well - but they often get beet by people who have crossed trained. A wrestler who crosstrains is definetly extremely dangerous. I am not disputing that BJJ and Thai are extremely effective arts - thats why a lot of JKD people have incorporated those arts into their training.

As I said before - do your research before spending a ton of money on an instructor who is a product of some mass production instructorship program. Insted, as you suggested - find someone who is legit. Your are pointing the fingure at JKD for doing this but look at Karate, BJJ, TKD or any art with belts. You will find people that climbed through the ranks and still have no concept of how to defend themselves. There are frauds in every system.

Your senerio of you loosing to the wrestler - you are comparing sport to real life. You put yourself in the wrestlers world. Had you had a grambit would you still have lost. Kali/wing chun where neaver meant to be a sport. They both have deadly techniques that are effective. If you study either of those arts - for six months you should be able to defend yourself in a street situation.

I don't really look at martial arts as sport as it appear you do. I think of it as more as a means to protect myself in a comprimised situation. If I where going to fight in a ring - I would focus on my cardio and do plenty of groundwork and standup. The ground work would be comprised of bjj, wrestling, shoto, judo, and any other ground systems. Stand up would be comprised of Thai, kali,boxing, and other multi-range standup.

[PentjackSilat]

I have to agree with him on one point. If you put someone in Karate, and someone in Thai, the Thai Boxer would whoop ass. In the seventies a bunch of Full Contact Karate fighters went to Thailand to fight Thai Boxers. They got beat so bad that Benny "The Jet" backed out of a fight he was scheduled to have with a Thai Boxer. Bill "Superfoot" Wallace backed out too, as did every other Kickboxing great of that time. Oh, and I mean they really got their asses handed to them.

[wcskgh]

jk

my point is not that jkd is useless, i love the idea of the art. what im saying is that, when people say use what works,and it doesnt matter what art it came from, etc, etc. HOW DO YOU KNOW IF ONE TECHNIQUE WORKS,UNLESS YOU HAVE PRACTICED THAT SOLE TECHNIQUE AT LEAST 1000 TIMES AGAINST PEOPLE RESISTING. thats my point. my instructor was legite, also the sifu im with now is legite, but truly a master. i see guys all over, like ric tucci, who i respect, but truth is, he lives in jersey,and goes to california a few times a year,and host seminars,etc. hes great at what he does, but when the resume states full instructor in thai boxing, full instructor in jkd,jun fan, certified in mande muda, certifies in majaphit silat, certified in kali, certified in savate,etc. its ridiculous. he legitimately trained all those arts, and all those guys are affiliated with jkd, and they all live outside tuccis home state, its all politics. again, if you cant make a technique work, i would seriously ask how long you have trained that one technique. and as far as my saying that bjj and thai will be the quickest roads to being a good fighter, i dont see how you can question that? yes, other arts are just as good, but take longer to understand,and develope. with 6 months of learning positioning in grappling, and working daily on shooting in, most other styles(at the quality in the us) dont stand a chance. also put someone doing karate, or kung fu for six months, in the ring with a thai student of six months, and yes, i bet 90 percent time, the thai guy wins. if both had no experience before joining up. and yes, befor training against takedowns, i was thrown on m,y ass against college wrestlers using my wing chun or kali, 90 percent of the time. i know, you can say it is me, that i wasnt good, but i beg to differ. go down to ucla, or a good college,and find a college wrestler your weight, use your kali, or jkd,and see if he can get you down

[thekuntawman]

i think what he is trying to say is the jkd is a mass producing instructor program. his teacher does not have fake certificates, they are real, but the seminar program makes teachers to easy to fast, and most of the people who come from it dont have the kind of experience a fighting teacher is suppose to have.

[J.K.]

wcskgh

Hey man - everyone studies MA for different reasons. Personally for me its for self-defense, disipline, health, and self confidence. I think I may have been over defensive when responding to your post. But Its as if you doubt that there is any talent in the JunFan.

First I would like to say that if your teacher is poor - no matter what art they are trying to pass on to you will fail. If you don't train hard and practice senerios real to life - then you will be unprepaired - should you have a street encounter.

If you teacher is good and understands the art he is passing on you will be able to learn some practical self - defense. You are arguing that wrestling beats - kali. BJJ and thai are the best arts if you really want to know how fight. You are simplifying to much. One art does not beat another art. You can not say that a wrestler will beat a kali guy 9 out of ten times - unless your experience is that 9 out of 10 times you lost to a wrestler. Do not apply a part to the whole. I would be willing to bet that just about every style has been defeated at some point in time.

Point - if you have an instructor with a valid background - I gaurentee it will be worth training with him or her. Just remeber that their are frauds in every art - just like there are genuie instructors. Bottom line before enrolling into some exspensive program - do your homework - found out the instructors lineage. If he checks out than great - if he is just another product of some mass produced instructor program - run for the hills.

[wcskgh]

ryu

good post , i agree. i did however call myself sifu, when i opened a school. i had a few instructorships, and i teach real well, i was never above anyone, and i got on the mat. its frustrating having a school, because you want to make people good, but if its too hard, they quit, people in general want to be fake martial artist. which is not bad, if thats what they want, everyone has to work the next day. but me, im a small guy, and wanted to know what worked,and train hard. i got alot of injuries, worst being a diaphram injury,and a herniated disc from grappling. so its tough. i still have to work. now, how can i do what i love,and dedicate enough time to it? i have to make it my livelihood, so either fight for money, which i am not at that level, or open a school again, now, how do i keep enrollment up, without watering it down, or teaching children? also, i respect you for sparring so much, but i must say, i had an eye opener sparring with my master from china, literally one shot from a hsing yi master, to the body, and i was almost crying, and he didnt hit me hard, it was a wakeup call. a real internal guy is something you should try to find, and spar him, you will love the experience. other than that, again, my hats off to you

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Kuntawman, that was a great post.

Well, it's amazing the state a few think JKD is in. In fact, JKD might run the risk of becoming a joke to the martial arts world if it continues to leave the bad taste ni the mouth of its students.
This is why I think guys like Matt Thorton, Paul Vunak, and now Burton Richardson are doing so well, and are important to JKD. I don't know if the problem lies within the mentality of JKD itself OR the mentality of human beings who want to be "important."
Too many people want to open up a school right away, and be referred to as "sifu" or "master" etc. It's just ego in my opinion.

Here's an example. On 6/6/1998 I recieved a phase 1 instructorship from Paul Vunak. I had started attending seminars years before, then began having private lessons under Tom Cruse, then finally made my way to getting some privates with Paul Himself. When I recieved the instructorship I did not jump for joy and set out to open my own school. Instead I became very aware that my skills (while good enough to get the certification) needed work. I wanted to really train my butt off to "honor the certificate" in a way....and not feel that I was cool for recieving it. I began lifting weights on a regular basis, jumping rope, taking some creatine (I've stopped that) I joined Carlos Machado's BJJ school for about a year and rolled week after week after week (until my money supply stopped ) Then I joined a olympic-sponsored judo school and went through the rankings until I recieved a brown belt (one under black) I for some reason did not want to get a black belt... maybe due to all the crap always posted because of "black belts". Instead I began really training hard in other things. I began having challenge matches, etc. I started training with a fighter who had two black belts (sash?) in CMA, and we began to really fight hard in the "NHB" style of fighting. We wore (and still do to this day) only small gloves and boxing headgear, and we just do it. We punch, kick, clinch, shoot, grapple, and ground and pound. We work for submissions and pound each other from mount, side control, guard, etc. We spar with sticks, knives, etc.
It's amazing training to me. Plus I have begun to privately "instruct" some friends who wanted to learn self-defense. Some just wanted to learn, others were afraid of someone they knew who wanted to fight them, etc.
Here's the point. I never once was a "master" or "sifu" to any one of them. I was only a friend who could coach them athletically and spar with them realistically. They loved the training because it was so informal, fun, and I was always down their grappling with them, boxing with them, etc. They were aware I had a certificate, but I never tell people I am certified in anything else. I even tell people that I haven't trained with Paul in a while, and the certificate is probably not valid anymore. I need to train with him again to progress and make sure. (and I plan to)

In order to have any credibility as a martial artist. You've got to be open, honest, have some decent fighting ability (that people can see), and be humble. It's not about masters and sifus to me... that stuff is all unimportant to me. What's important is that people indeed need to study their arts in devotion. The absorb what's useful stuff can become a fallacy if you don't really train. Kuntaw is absolutely correct for saying that. I couldn't agree more.
An "instructor" should grow with his students. He should always be training hard with the best people. Train with as many great fighters as you can. Train with the Brazilians, train with Japanese shooto champs, train with great boxers, MMArstis. Train with them!! Don't fool yourself with bland absurdtions like they have "rules" and therefore can't really fight.... Don't go there to challenge them, go there with a humble spirit to train with them and take in all their great info.

The martial arts world is so filled with ego lately.....

Ryu

[wcskgh]

ready to laugh, kuntawman

hes about 42 yrs old. i hate to feel like im ragging on him, its not him, its martial arts in general. see, i know him for 10-12 yrs, and when i met him, he did only kali,thai, and wing chun, now all those other rankings came over the last 10 yrs, without even taking classes, some seminars, etc, and false claims of different things. its sad, and the guy is very good, he doesnt need to lie, but now its too late. he printed his bio, so it will catch up with him. we had a big fallout, because i got sick of defending his lies,and so he changed the locks on the school, i was the assistant instructor, now he tells everyone i had problems,etc. he has no rank in shooto,or bjj, but wears a blackbelt with red stripes, also, no certificate in thai, or kali, or tai chi, but if he keeps up the jkd, that ranking makes all the other ones legitimate, it all falls under the jkd umbrella, hence you have a way out. its kinda crazy. but i guess its business. anyway, i now train with li tailiang, a master from china, and you see major differences in a master from asia, who is legitimate. its a joke here, but most jkd schools are far more exciting than basic karate here, so people love it, but when they meet a real master, they will know what i mean

[thekuntawman]

wow, how old is this guy? he has i think three or four 4th degree, and a fifth degree! i know a guy who got his black belt 20 years ago and he is only a 3rd degree. you see when somebody can go the easy way to get rank, the instructor rank of the fighting art means nothing. this is why boxers in every gym thinks he can eat up a black belter. its no longer a proud thing to be a martial art teacher anymore, its just a cheap title you can buy yourself.

but we see this kind of school all over the state i live in, california. back in DC schools like this have to stay out in the suburb.