my opinion on jkd,and people.

[J.K.]

PentjackSilat

could you imagine if they had cage matches WC vs Kali - no rules -weapons legal. I'd definetly pay for that.

[PentjackSilat]

J.K. your wasting your time. As long as JKD, Kali, Silat, and Wing Chun don't stand up to the test of a one-on-one combat on a padded floor in a caged arena with a referee and 3 pages of rules, you'll never get him to agree.
Nevermind 400 years of brutal war with Spain. Nevermind dozens of Chinese warring factions. Developing an art to survive only makes in impractical. You have to make someone tapout so that the referee declares you the winner to prove practicality in today's world.

[J.K.]

ufc is a sport - your tools are limited. You don't see kali/kuntao/wingchun ect fighters in these compititions because they don't allow you to use the tools of that art. And almost everyone in Mixed martial arts cross trains. You will barely see someone who just studied one art. So, you my friend have missed the point again.

You can not evaluate hypothetical situations.
"that if you do jkd for six months,and someone else does only thai and bjj they will beat you. "You obviously have no idea what your talking about when it comes down to it.

As far as putting my skills to the test - I have had numerous confrontations in bars, concerts, and street. I came out a live and well in all of them. I've locked people, trapped people, destructed and much more. It sounds like you have trouble using the tools in various systems that's why you are putting them down. Just cause you can't apply your techniques doesn't mean they aren't effective.

Wing chun - doesn't use traps - are you OK? It says in your profile that you trained wing chun...Eye gouging, headbutts, knees...guess what my friend - thats trapping range. nobody sayed its strictly trapping but it is a close quarter art(trapping range).

"point is, unless you put the time in each art like paul did, your jkd is a collection of many techniques, not absorbing whats useful. " Most JKD schools have a specific day for a specific art. Monday - Kali(2hrs), tuesday - integrated grappling (3hrs), wednesday - standup(3hrs) ect......

Almost every martail art derived from another...its called evolution.

[doubleouch]

You guys just don't get it! It is not about what art you train, or getting very good at one range or one art vs. another. It is simply about training against active resistance and testing your stuff with sparring. If you foccuss too much on arts you loose sight of the fact that most techniques aren't specific to one art. I once saw a video of Sifu Fong doing Wing Chun groundfighting that he learned back in Hong Kong in the 60's. It looked exactly like BJJ. My point is, focuss on what works and not where it came from. Test everything and you will know everything you need to know!

[wcskgh]

vunak article and my post

the vunak article summed it up,as far as what i was trying to say. see, paul trained four hours a day,and all week, and put his stuff to the test, many jkd guys dont train that much,and just do alot of arts,and alot of sparring. point is, unless you put the time in each art like paul did, your jkd is a collection of many techniques, not absorbing whats useful. also, i do disagree that wing chun is trapping, this is a myth, wing chun is explosiveness down an opponents center, sometimes an angled center, not just coming head on with someone. headbutts knees and elbows are in wing chun, the eyegouge in the second form, the 8 kicks include kness, the dummy covers some clinch to nullify knees, etc. wing chun trapping is only used against someone skilled enough to force a trap, like a disarm, you never look for a disarm. wing chun is not end all, either, but has all the aspects of kino mutai, but few people get to high levels in these arts, and half the guys teaching dont know the real deal.

[wcskgh]

ignorant

i am not ignorant, jkd incorporated bjj, yes, but i will bet my life, that if you do jkd for six months,and someone else does only thai and bjj they will beat you. point being, that if you want to fight,and add more arts, you will be a jack of all trades,and master of none, and if you trained only one ground art and one stand up, you will be better at those 2 ranges, and i guarantee you will not be able to use your trapping range against a good grappler. i have trained in most jkd arts, i love them all. but you kept talking about fighting, how many jkd guys have done well in pride or ufc, how many traps have you seen, wheres all the guntings and destructions,and energy drills? nobody in jkd gets to a high enough level at any of these, to pull them off in a real nhb fight. eric paulson is an awesome jkd guy, i saw no kali, trapping, wing chun, etc in any of his fights. as far as any wing chun guys grappling, they are ignorant if they disregard the effectiveness of grappling. closed mindedness is the end of growth. if you were referring to william cheung and boztepe, emin picked william up and slammed him, and then got knee on stomache and chain punched williams head into submission. i have the tape. i have utmost respect for alot of you guys, but you simply sound as if you havent put any of this to the test with skilled guys. even on egan inoues tapes, he talks about how fascinated he was with burton richardsons jkd, and all that, then he saw what was show and what was real, and since then, burton has changed his game. i have high respect for burton. i love inosonto also, but when training in a class where you learn 10-15 techniques in an hour, you will not get highly skilled in them for a long time.

[sikal]

Originally posted by J.K.

There are very few martial arts that cover all ranges of combat that is why blending different arts works so well.

Yup. And even those that *do* cover all ranges tend to put more emphasis on one or two ranges than on the rest (however you want to deliniate and count the ranges).

Mike

[PentjackSilat]

a little philosophy:
To each his own.
a little more philosophy:
It's not the art, it's the man.

[J.K.]

"if all you want to do is fight, then study thai, and bjj, and i guarantee you will be much better in fighting, than if you did jkd"

FIRST OF ALL - you are ignorant - Junfan jkd has incorporated BJJ and thai. Yes junfanjkd does do a lot of bag work but you will also do a lot of sparring, sensitivity drills, cardio...

Yes, the more you train the easier it will be to defeat a less skilled opponent. The more you train the better you will be. So a person that devotes his entire life to training - should be remarkable - no one is denying that.

There are very few martial arts that cover all ranges of combat that is why blending different arts works so well. I heard a story of 2 experts in wing chun(who shall remain nameless) - who ended up getting into a fight with each other. The bothed closed and before they new it the where both on the ground. Neither one new what to do - and all there years of devotion to WC was waisted - if only they kept an open mind and branched out. Had one of them new grappling - there might have actually been a winner. So no matter how much you prepare - its the things you are not prepared for that bite you in the a**.

[wcskgh]

one last time

i never said that you need to learn a whole style, to see if one technique works in a fight. yes, try pak sao, and see if it works. if all you want to do is fight, then study thai, and bjj, and i guarantee you will be much better in fighting, than if you did jkd. those arts are the simplest and most effective in a short time. now, all i was trying to point out is that without learning a whole art,. you will not see what is best for you,and be able to throw out the rest. i know its hard to train complete arts. also, i know my hsing yi instructor,and bagua, will kick my but with his hsing yi, no matter what i try. so single arts are effective, and cover all the ranges, hsing yi for example covers long, close,and trapping range, but not grappling. i have been thru some of the jun fan, and its cool, its just alot of pad work, with different arts,and if any art trained on pads alot, it would be more effective, like boxing is. its not what art you train, but how you train. bruce did not approve to much of the filipino stuff, from what i was told, he said it was to much movement,and not practical. i have an instructor rank in kali, and i love it, but i found it extremely hard to destruct something, when a good boxer was coming at me, i always resorted to wing chun, and no trapping, just feeling,and shifting. i am no great martial artist, i put in about 11 yrs with kali and wing chun, about 8 with silat,and about 3 with bjj. i know these arts pretty well, and i understand that even with that much time, i know very little of the essence of the arts, when trying to attack gary lam, i was shown what wing chun does, when trying to grapple gokor, i saw what his art does, when trying to use anything against li tai liang, i saw how nasty hsing yi was,etc. by picking pieces,and thinking you can fight, you have never fooled around with a master of his art. and for the most part, wanting a quick way of learning how to fight, will serve you well, against lousy fighters.even as much as i love silat, herman suwanda was awesome, but i know what he taught in the us, was way watered down,and i have a hard time applying alot of it. anyway, thanks for responses, i look forward to learning and sharing

[J.K.]

doubleooch and pentjacksilat - both made excellent points. If I studied karate - why should I learn all the forms when all i really want to be able to do is fight. Im better off learning the basics of the art and then sparring with people. At least then i will be able to identify my strengths and weeknesses. Kata will just show me - how bad my memory is.

[PentjackSilat]

Very good point. In the book "Absorb What Is Useful," Inosanto writes that learning an entire art is not necessary. But that if you know the distance and area the art is most effective in, then you have learned it's essence. And it is only necessary to learn an arts essence.

[doubleouch]

The idea of learning a style in its entirety to be able to absorb and reject adequately is a faulty one. If you are testing your techniques with sparring an active resisting opponent it becomes clear very easily what is usefull and what is not. Learning an art in its entirety may give you more perspective, but I don't see that it is necessary. If I want to know if pak sao works I will try it in sparring. That will tell me. You might say that "unless you know the art fully you will not be able to use pak sao correctly", I say that is bull. If that is the case then I think the art is useless and I'll reject the whole thing! If you can't use the parts of an art unless you know the whole then the art is too complicated anyway.

[sikal]

Re: listen carefully

Originally posted by wcskgh
i am not on suwandas jock, i loved pa herman, yes, he was a great ro;e model, i just use him as a reference, because i saw him grapple, and i knew alot about his crosstraining.

I was just letting you know how you sounded (not just here but in the Silat thread also).

i also love bruce lee, he is what started me in martial arts, but my point is, how can you absorb what is useful, if you use what bruce taught, that is already stripped down, and then you strip it down more,and so on. you could be missing the best part of the art for you, because bruce threw it away.the public, in general, sees jkd as wing chun, thai, grappling and kali. my point is that jkd is a philosophy, it can be tae kwon do, san shou, capoiera,etc. but to call yourself a jkd guy,or you teach jkd, you ,must have a lineage back to bruce, which means you have to learn his arts, which makes jkd a style, not a philosophy.

JKD is a philsophy not a style. Jun Fan Gung Fu is a style.

I assume by "public in general" you mean the MA community at large? You may be right. I don't know.

I assume that we're all in agreement that cross-training is valid and valuable ... but that a foundation is necessary, right?

In my opinion (based on what I've heard from Dan Inosanto and Richard Bustillo) Jun Fan is the foundation which makes someone a "JKD person."

I cross-train. I've had a fair amount of exposure to Jun Fan and have a decent amount of knowledge about the system. But I don't consider myself a "JKD Man" because the Jun Fan didn't play a pivotal role in my development. Jun Fan is not my core.

The JKD philosophy is about self-expression ... regardless of martial medium ... but without Jun Fan as the core, it's not really "JKD."

For some people, what Bruce taught is all they need. It works for them.

To say someone can't find self-expression in a single art is ludicrous. That's like saying that only Jazz musicians ever find self-expression and that Classical musicians are hopelessly mired in tradition. But then have a listen to Itzak Perlman and Yo Yo Ma playing the same arrangement ... they each express it differently.

It is possible to find self-expression within the system of Jun Fan ... just as it's possible to find self-expression within any other system of martial arts. Cross-training isn't necessary ... but I think it helps most people in finding their self-expression.

Jun Fan is no different from any other system. It's just that it's highest philosophical expression has a name: JKD.

Most other arts have something similar ... but may or may not have a name for it.

In Mande Muda, for instance, Pak Herman used the term "Pecahan" to describe the same philosophy ... in my head Pecahan and JKD are the same. They're both about self-expression.

While I'd guess you, wcskgh, know what I'm referring to with the term Pecahan, I'll briefly explain here for other readers:

"Pecahan" literally means (according to my Indo dictionary): "a broken fragment, faction of a larger whole." The word also commonly refers to a form of divination in which a vase (or something similar) is dropped and the future is predicted from the scattered fragments. In martial arts, Pak Herman used to refer to it this way: (paraphrasing) "The incoming punch is the glass which breaks. From it, I read him and respond appropriately."

Another way Pak Herman used to express this concept was: (also a paraphrase): "His punch is the question. I give him an appropriate answer."

I think these are both related to the same philosophy which Bruce called "JKD."

Mike

[J.K.]

JKD PHILOSOPHY - JUN FAN JKD - STYLE

You are missing the point - people study the jkd philophy which encourages crosstraining and self development. Jun Fan is the system bruced developed which is composed of many arts. Today, people will go to individual schools to learn specific arts such as: tkd, kali, arins, shoot, bjj. You could also go to a school that has already integrated a combination of arts. Jun Fan as I no it - consisist of a multitude of different arts which incorporate all ranges of combat. Most people in the JKD system study with more than one teacher and seek out specialist/guru of specific systems. This further emphisises the point of self discovery - for some kali might be the answer the have been looking for, for others it maybe a waist of time.

You are getting confused between the concepts that bruce laid out in the Tao of JKD and martial art system - Jun Fan JKD. Jun Fan is a system that consist of multiple arts. The style incorporates all ranges of motion - which many arts do not. I've have studied a number of different arts and most of them focus on specific ranges and therefore some people may consider them to be incomplete. Jun Fan does have specific arts that it extracted techniques from. Its what bruce felt would work, Just like how your former teacher Herman Suande probably passed to you what he felt would be effective for you. This is not a new concept - all masters try to develop there own brian child of a system.

No matter what style you study the Tao of JKD can assist you in finding your weeknesses, correct your weeknesses and achieving your goals. Its a philosophy. Jun Fan JKD can teach you self defense.