my opinion on jkd,and people.

[wcskgh]

here is a blatant example

i studied with a guy named charles chi, for many years, he was good at a few arts, and he was a descent teacher. now, he never sparred his students, his lineage is questionable, he did a little of many arts,and can teache the drills well. this served me well for a while, then, he started teaching every art,and claiming certification in all. now, he is one of the highest ranked in mande muda, and i knew all the same material, i was asked by suwanda, to get that ranking, and i said no, i will just study under chi. well, now that suwanda died, i wish i had taken the certificate, but anyway, now chi started jkd, and within 8 months, of 1 lesson a month, because he already has a school, he is given apprentice instructor under ric tucci. now he is having students pay him monthly, to learn what he learned in one class a month, and that is the business of jkd. now, to get ranked under dan, he has to bring enough students to seminars, and show that the students are getting good, etc. its a farce, its political bs. and this is jkd everywhere. when guys have ten rankings in different arts, and all their teachers are in different parts of the country, you know they are just doing seminars. if all there teachers are in the same location, i may buy it. go to this website,and look at the bio. www.nyjkd.com kuntaw man, i agree with you

[doubleouch]

Once again poeple are missing the point. crosstraining is not about taking a little of this and a little of that. Nor is it learning a little bit of many arts. It is simply learning what works regardless of what art it comes from. It is shifting the focuss from learning arts to learning what works. It is testing what you know in situations that are as realistic as saftey will allow and not relying on the word and experience of others but to discover and experience for yourself. And yes, it is training what works over and over until you can pull it off in your sleep.
As for traditional arts, I would never disparage them. All arts have alot of good stuff. It is the training methods that I dispute!

[thekuntawman]

absorb what is useful

absorb what is useful? are you going to let your 10 year old kid tell you what is best for him? can you let a college freshman make his own path to becoming a doctor, and then operate on people?

absorb what is useful is not a new thing. its the highest form of the martial art, and the top level. but a beginner is not qualified to say what is useful for him. if that is the case, put any white belt or green belter in front of me so i can kick his ass, and make him abandon every technique he ever learn. where one guy here said "the technique didnt work in sparring, then discard it and move on". well whoever told that to you is a irresponsible teacher to make a student think he knows better than the teacher (any teacher). if i show you something from my style, and you cant make it work, we are going to keep working on it until you know how to use it, then i will show you how to use it against different kind of fighters, so you dont have to go after every kind of style to learn how to fight him. but if we only have a 2 hours seminar, well, good luck.

so you want to learn to fight a boxer, then study boxing? this is how a child thinks. the boxer will whip you every time because he knows his art better than you do. if you are learning tae kwon do and you want to learn how to fight a boxer, you better hope your teacher knows how to teach you beat a boxer with the things you are best at. but you learn a little of this and a littel of that, its not going to help you against somebody who knows it well. and you see this is the second highest level of the martial arts training, how to apply your fighting technique against other styles of fighting. but for the seminar goer, or the one learning from a seminar goer, you cant get to that level because your teacher probably never made it to that level because of this "absorb what is useful".

when the guy said to learn a whole art until you can make up your mind about it, that kindof makes sense, because how iwll you know if this art can help you when you only know a few things in the art. in the jkd seminar where you have a guy who never boxed teaching "boxing range" he never did a muay thai match, but he is teaching "muay thai", he never fought in a match as a silat man, but he is teaching "silat concepts"--everything is from the peel of the fruit, and nobody, the teacher, or the generations of students, can tell you anything about the juice.

do you want to know why you cant find anybody around with a skill like bruce lee?

[thekuntawman]

i like what the first poster said, but i wont say that i dont like jeet kune do, but i dont like the philosophy of how everybody is teaching jeet kune do.

first you have guys who did not train in jkd every day for how many years, they did it in a seminar. maybe a few times a year. then if they are lucky enough to open a school, they take the students money to train him every week, for how many years before you give him a teaching certificate. i call this hipocrasy. you dont devote your art to full time study, but then you tell your students to do it. and your past experience doesnt count here, ex-karate black belters.

second, the student is made to lost respect for karate, kung fu, tkd, and competition fighting. i am teaching you streetfighting, they say, and those guys have rules. now that, is a lie unless you put your boys on the street to fight with strangers. a competition is the best and safest place to test your skill, your courage, and your ability to think and react fast. and thats any kind of tournament, even point fighting. if you think that a karate man who practice kata cant beat you (even with your 5 BJJ seminars under your belt), i know you dont know much about fighting. the student is taught to believe in stories and theory. they worship bruce lee the actor, and when they want to prove this theory is worthy, they will tell you, bruce lee use to say...in the philippines if you call yourself a fighting expert, there is so many people who want to line up and try you out. and all your potential students are out there to see if you can back up your theory. but what about the martial art teachers of today? they are hiding behind garbage like "sparring is not realistic" and telling you who is in there lineage or how this guy is well known and well respected. most of the people teaching arnis and eskrima here in the US is a nobody in the PI (the ones that came from the philippines), just like how many of the SILAT people here in the US and europe are nobody in indonesia. in the US you get your reputation by how many times people saw you in the magazine, and how many people go to your seminars. not by how effective you are. most of you, probably none of you ever got to see bruce lee fight, and you havent seen his students fight. and you probably never get to see your own teacher fight.

i think so many people want to abandon tradition in the martial art, they abandon practical for theory at the same time.

[Jari]

Originally posted by doubleouch
I know I'm using the technique properly because I test it to make sure. If I twist my partners arm and it hurts then I really don't care if my stance is not correct

Sure, I din't say you can't make it work. What I meant was that if you CAN'T make it work, then it is not necessarily the technique that has fault. It may be that you don't understand where, how and in what context the technique was meant to be used. The same technique that you are unable to make work, may work wonders for someone with different base concept of fighting tactics.

Does this mean that you HAVE TO train more in that art? No, of course you can discard the technique if you don't find it useful. But it is unfair to go on telling everyone that technique sucks or moreover: that art sucks. Just because you failed to understand it's techniques doesn't mean they aren't effective in someone else's hands who has the basis required for those techniques.

[wcskgh]

is there a lack of communication

first off, i love wing chun, and have done it for ten years, i still state, wing chun is not about trapping, or chi sau, i never said wing chun does not have traps, or chi sau, but is not the main points of the art, yes they are tools, the main points, are the principles,and you will hardly ever trap a guy in the street. pont number 2, im not saying that something has to work in ufc to be good. my point is that if you want to fight quickly, do thai and bjj. end of story. i just know of alot of people, and i used to be one of them, that spar in class, and think they are getting real good, and people in the street dont spar like guys in class, they fight much different, i have made wing chun work in street fights, i have made bjj work in them also. but you have to look at where your coming from, i am not looking to be the greatest streetfighter, because i never will, i have friends that fight everyweekend in bars, they are thugs, im not. so if you brag about how many fights your in, your probably a punk, why are you in so many fights? if your so good, why cant your ego allow you to walk away? i was stating things about jkd, and the idea nowadays, that training all these arts is what bruce intended. and my point being, that you can do jkd,and not have a solid foundation in any art,and a little of many, and you cannot absorb whats useful if you dont learn principles and theories of the arts. which takes time. ok, you train kali, as did i, what is the principles behind your kali sytem besides just destructing and defanging? what is your goal? to be a great streetfighter? if so, then get in some pit fights without refs,and see how tough you are. if your goal is to be able to defend yourself on the street when you need to, thats cool. but if your goal is to learn jkd as what bruce intended, our discussion is on theory, and we can discuss further. pencak, you say your arts were tested in wars, and i agree, but i believe your silat can probably work against a thug, but i will bet money, that a descent collegiate wrestler, with no submissions, will pick you up and drop you, 9 out of ten times, unless you wrestled. my point is this, i have enough experience to know that if you say ufc has rules,and bla bla, i agree, but sparring in class has more rules, so how can you know what techniques really work? i have narrowed my arsenal down quite a bit, from experiencing real fights. i realized, after fighting very good fighters, that i need to go back and really learn each arts principles,and finer details,and not just a bunch of techniques that work in sparring, or saved my ass in a few scuffles with joe nobody. you will see what i mean, after fighting some highly skilled people for real. i love suwanda, as you stated, but i also tried my silat against college wrestlers, i tried wing chun on them,etc. i used bjj,and beat them, but when i fought a very good bjj guy, was i able to use kali or wing chun, or silat, not really. see, he practiced shooting, much longer than i practiced defending the takedown, because i was to busy going to kali on monday, wing chun on tuesday,etc etc. i have a ton of material i am above average with, and a few that i have really got down. i went back,and learned how, and why arts work, by studying a few techniques,and principles, to death. you guys who have got in the ring with amatuer boxers,and college wrestlers,all know what i mean

[PentjackSilat]

Everything can be used with everything else as it's essence dictates. There are times to use Karate and there are times to use Muay Thai. There are times to use TKD, JKD, Kali, Juko Kai, Aikido, and BJJ. Now to get to the essence of whether to study the whole art, or just take a little, consider this. I am sure everyone will agree with me on this. It is better to have one or two things that you have practiced a thousand times, than to have a thousand things you have practiced one or two times. Practicing with resistance is implied.

[PentjackSilat]

Now, Karate doesn't care about sticking their leg out there because the second someone comes in, their theory is that in that first exchange someone is dead.
Thaiboxers don't try and kill you with one blow, nor is their entire art presupposed on that happening.
So, can you mix Karate with Thaiboxing? Ofcourse you can! If you move in and don't kill them with your first blow, then you switch from your Karate mentality to your Thaiboxing mentality. Once you two separate and you have to crash in again, you go back to your Karate mentality for that. Then if you fall, you go into your BJJ Silat mentality until 3 of his friends come and you then go into your Olympic 100 meter sprint mentality.

[PentjackSilat]

I wish to make my point of view clear. American Karate sucks! Now, go to Okinawa and train there, and you have the real system. The system that hasn't been watered down for an American audience. Correct me if I am wrong, but this theory comes from a reliable source. The essence of Karate, as I understand it, is to annihilate your oppenent with one decisive blow. Real Karatekas harden their bodies with Makiwara boards, stone and steel. The theory is that two freight trains will collide. The question is which one is stronger. The stronger one can either deflect the first blow and crush the opponent, or launch such a devastatingly powerful attack that it will kill, mame, and destroy whatever is in its way. They don't dance around because they set themselves in one spot, and explode.
Thai boxing has the theory that everything is done with as much power as possible. But they don't rely on one hit as the end all. The are lighter on their feet, but certainly don't dance around like boxers. They walk in ,clash, and give multiple full power blows until someone falls or they get separated. If separated, they then walk into each other again. The reason they are lighter on their feet is not because they want to be light on their feet. It is because they stand straight up instead taking a low power posture like Karate. The reason they stand up is because they want to keep all their limbs in close so that their leg isn't sticking out infront of them to be used as a target.

[doubleouch]

What is your end goal? To learn the essence of an art or to learn to fight? If you want to learn to fight then fight. If you want to learn the essence of an art then go study for 30 years! You will probably get some good stuff, but you will also get some obsolete stuff and some stuff that has nothing to do with fighting.

So, back to my original point. If you don't know the basis the techniques of an art are based on, you can't use them. At least properly. You may be able to use some single thing like side kick from karate separately with thaiboxing stuff, but you can hardly say you were using kara

Again you miss my point. I know I'm using the technique properly because I test it to make sure. If I twist my partners arm and it hurts then I really don't care if my stance is not correct according to the doctrine of Wing Chun etc.
Real crosstraining is not combining arts it is learning to fight from a variety of situations and ranges using whatever works from those situations and ranges. If it works it works! I don't care where it came from, nor do I care to learn the dogma of the art that it came from. I have used some Wing Chun techniques very successfully and I know rats ass about Wing Chun. I used them and they worked. Thats all I know and all I need to know.

Good Discussion!

[doubleouch]

Silat, I think you are being a little unfair. The point is how will you know if your techniques work? Centuries of war and all that are great but did you see any of this war? Do you know what techniques they used? How they used them? The only way I know to determine if techniques work is to test them in sparring. For techniques that are too "deadly" to spar you may be able to get a bit creative in finding ways to spar them, but most like sticking your finger in a guys eye don't really need to be trained. If you can time a good jab, you can stick your finger in someone's eye. Anyone who trains NHB will tell you that in a streetfight they will simply add dirty fighting(biting, elbow, eye gouge etc.) They already have the conditioning, the combat experience, the timing etc. Silat, Wing Chun and all traditional arts have fantastic techniques that work great! I don't argue that. I think their training methods are sometimes lacking. Many don't test their techniques enough.
If you can't beat someone when there is a referee to control the action, a padded floor, time limits, weight classes etc. What makes you think you can beat them when there are no rules?

[J.K.]

JARI

I wasn't putting down karate - if it workS for you or anyone else - how can i deny that. I meant just to express the importance of the basics - if you ever fought you will no the importance of the basics. The basics are the foundation of any art. When you hit a road block in your training go back to the basics.

Yes, some arts blend better with eachother than others - agreed. One also has the option of exploring a individual art based on the realization that the art agrees with you. I am not trying to convert anyone or dissued anyone from only studying one art - im all for it -just be true to yourself and you will succeed no matter what medium you choose. Its your path, your destiney and only you will be able to tell if your training is working for you.

But I will say that for those of you that think Junfan is a bogus system is just like saying karate sux, bjj is only good for sport. Believe me this art has evolved into something beutiful. When trained under the right teacher, this art will prove to be practical. I am studying under a teacher that has full instructorship under Dan Insosanto, Paul Vunak, Larry Hartsell, and Joe Rossi. He has also studied many other arts and has achieved a high status. My teacher has devoted his life to martail arts and has a strong JKD back ground as well as many other arts. Knowledge is truth. He has a profound understanding of many systems. So you cant deny the fact that he has something to offer. Any person from any system who devotes a life time studying MA will have something to offer. So to say that your waisting your time because the person hasn't learned the entire system - i would have to disagree. Studying what you wanna study - explore different arts, borrow from them and find your way.

In modern times everyone is crosstraining - we are living in the information age - take advantage of it. Way back when warriors didn't have this luxary. The followed a system inherrent to their culture for survival. They would go to war with other cultures and the victor would be the one whos planning/training was superior. Now you can simultaneously study two systems that may have been at war with eachother way back when. Do what is right for you but keep an open mind for others.

Don't try to complicate fighting - this will hinder your learning of any self defense system. keep it simply. The more complex you make something the less practical it becomes. People try to make the study of MA something esoteric/mystical - there is no magic here - just blood, sweat and hard work.

I didn't appreciate the dig on the american part - look around my friend, We are a global super power and I am proud to be American.

RYU -I think that NHB fighting is excellant and has really done a lot for MA. These guys are highly trained athletes for whom I have a ton of respect for. I think all MA should test there skills in the ring - its good for self observation. I was just pointing out the fact that some martial arts don't really lend themselves to rink - at least not in this country.

[Jari]

Originally posted by J.K.
It sounds like you have trouble using the tools in various systems that's why you are putting them down. Just cause you can't apply your techniques doesn't mean they aren't effective.

When one is having trouble making tools from a single art work, it is usually because he has no idea of the "doctrine" of the art, i.e. how the whole system is meant to be used.

Like my Wing Tsun instructor always says, "You have to have the concept together. If your concept breaks or leaks, so will your techniques based on that concept."

[Jari]

Originally posted by J.K.
doubleooch and pentjacksilat - both made excellent points. If I studied karate - why should I learn all the forms when all i really want to be able to do is fight. Im better off learning the basics of the art and then sparring with people. At least then i will be able to identify my strengths and weeknesses. Kata will just show me - how bad my memory is.

No. Your post just shows how ignorant you are about karate. But I noticed you are american, so that is to be accepted. First of all, if you spar with karate techniques, it doesn't look like anything you do in a ring. Karate is not exchanging punches and kicks, finding for openings. But it will look like that if you only take the kicks and punches and start sparring.

Same goes for WingChun. Why don't you see anyone using WC punches in a kickboxing match. Because they don't work in a strike-exchange match.

You need to know the "dogma" or "doctrine" of the art. It is easy to mix and match arts like boxing, kickboxing, thaiboxing, modern karate and so on, because their doctrine is similar. They differ on techniques but are all designed for exchanging strikes. You dance around, look for openings, feint and test the opponent, when opportunity presents itself you strike and usually this opens some more opportunities - or he counters.

Wrestling, judo, bjj has different doctrine. They are not based on exchanging strikes, but on closing in, making it difficult for the opponent to strike at all and then sinking them. This is easily mixed with the strike-exchanging arts because they are separate areas and you don't have to mix the doctrines too much. When you are down grappling, you don't have to dance around and bob around punches.

As you can see, you cannot use a technique based on bjj doctrine (say, escape from mount) when you are in an area where you might use a thaiboxing technique. Theres a line between the areas where these doctrines work and don't work and so it is easy for you to learn them both and use the one on which turf you are on. The techniques of one doctrine won't work on the area of the other doctrine. You need "the basis" for the techniques to work.

Now let's see traditional karate. Or Wing Chun. They both have their own doctrine. The problem is that their doctrine is different than say, thai boxing, but operates in the same area. Unlike kickboxing, karate's doctrine is very different from thai boxing doctrine. They don't work together (at least not well). In karate, you don't dance (unless you are doing modern karate, which I already listed above in the same list as thai) at all. You have techniques that are meant to be used in a very different manner. Now, you can either start dancing around, looking for the openings the thai boxer has trained for - or you can start walking away and use your karate when being surprise attacked while you are trying to go home. But you cannot do them both! That is why they can't mix.

Same for WingChun, you can hardly mix it with karate or kickboxing because of differing doctrine. WingChun is not for exchanging punches. It has it's own "thing".

It is easy to mix Karate or WingChun with bjj though. For the same reason you can mix kickboxing with bjj. Their doctrines, even different, work on different areas so they don't overlap and confuse you.

So, back to my original point. If you don't know the basis the techniques of an art are based on, you can't use them. At least properly. You may be able to use some single thing like side kick from karate separately with thaiboxing stuff, but you can hardly say you were using karate. Karate would not have used the kick like that. And you would not have been able to make it work with karate doctrine because you didn't even know it. You took a single blow and used it with thai doctrine and thought you had learned something from karate. Not.

Sorry for the long post. I'm too tired to even go through it and make it more understandable, so I'll probably get flamed but so be it...

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Okay... people might disagree with me here. But here it goes.

First, I don't like the "UFC is a sport with limitations, etc." That leads to a lot of "I'll just eye boink him" and other such nonsense.
It is true that NHB is a sport. But it is a sport that throws the body into the athletic and traumatic aspect of a real fight. It is easy to sit and talk about "rules" etc. but as the StraightBlast gym says "be like water, just add dirt."
If you don't have the athleticism or knowledge that a NHB person has chances are you will probably not fair well against one in a real fight. Do you think a NHB fighter will fight you in speedos on the street? Do you think they can't eye gouge or use weapons like knives, guns, etc.?
I am not saying everyone has to be a cage fighter. I certainly am not nor do I care to be. But don't forget the training that these people do. In a real fight you have to be athletic, and you have to know what it feels like to fight the way NHB people do. That's just my opinion. That doesn't mean you have to fight in a cage...but you better spar full contact, with boxing, double legs, ground and pound, submission, etc. You learn fast what you can and can't do, and what you need to work on for reality.

Having said that, I do think people with different styles such as wing chun or kali can indeed fight for real, BUT their training has to be athletic and with resisting opponents. They have to be exposed to NHB type training. You've got to experience and go from there.
I don't think you have to master all styles in order to take from them...but you do have to spend some time to the ones you are doing. You can't go for 3 weeks to a BJJ school and say you know BJJ..... it's something you never stop learning.
I have been yelled at for what I'm about to say....
I don't like to use "trapping range" tools standing up...I prefer to use them on the ground (either mount or knee on stomach, etc.) This is what is working best for me, and I don't do a lot of what JKD/PFS people do.... I don't like straightblasting that much. I don't look to get the thai clinch to elbow, knee, or headbutt. I want to end a fight before it starts with a pre-emptive strike followed by combinations, OR I want to enter with boxing, clinch, and either push the guy into a wall to headbutt, knee, and elbow, or slam him on the ground to either ground and pound or stay on my feet and kick him in the head.
I knife spar, stick spar, use OC spray, etc.
I think the standing trapping range can be more effective before the fight starts (i.e. an encroachment..). I like ground and pound, but I also know I can't do that to everyone... so things like eye jabs etc are important to learn. What I don't think is that people should just learn eye jabs and not really care too much about how those "sport" NHB guys are training.....
You can learn a lot from them.

Ryu