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As a practitioner of TKD i am a fan of high kicks but in my opinion many martial arts moves such as high kicks, flying kicks, throws or joint locks would be used in a practical situation unless the practitioner was of a very high standard
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clue....
In Tae Kwon Do:Originally posted by HandtoHandAfter many years of debating, the experts concur, high kicks suck!!!
Well they are actually devestating when used correctly and in the right opurtunity but that opturnity is very, very rare. So it should be stressed that kicks should rarly get any higher than the groin area, and should be executed with lightning spead to prevent opponent from grabbing.
The higher you kick, the better
In KungFu:
The lower you kick, the betterComment
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Yes but I also train and fight Muay Thai... and we use low line kicks ten times more than Kungfu and I love them. I also witness with my own eyes people getting knocked out regularly with high level kicks, it has nothing to do with my training... I see them in action all the time and they work all the time, it is not as rare or hard to do as Handtohand thinks.
Mathewkemp, I fully agree, most techniques need expert proficiency. Very few people put in the time or commitment to get to that level so blame the art instead of their lack of dedication and work ethic when techniques don't work.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKDComment
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Backkick to the throat would suck.
Well, if we are talking street defence then ANYTHING can happen. I've seen people use the Thai thigh kick to end a fight immediately, I also have a very good friend that tore a persons scalp off with a front leg hook kick (that ended the fight immediately). I have seen lots of inexperienced fighters fall to the ground flailing and out of control...my point is, anything can happen and nothing should be discounted.
You are completely wrong though when you start talking about how high kicks are telegraphed and insinuate they are slow or clumsy. That smacks of propaganda spewed forth by martial arts with certain philosophies. I don't think you've ever seen of fought a high caliber kicker. Any head kick needs to be executed with lightning speed, dead on precision and bone breaking power... otherwise stick to the knee kick and leave the big guns for the experts. There are only 2 head level kicks I can do at street worthy level and if I hadn't been training them for 13 years to get to that level I would be kidding myself if I ever attempted them. Just because it took me 13 years doesnt mean it would take everyone though. Anyway, knee kick is great! I would use it too, but I would not discount the use of my other weapons if I felt the range and timing called for it.
It's funny you brought up pants not allowing you to kick. It might surprise you to know that MANY martial artists go shopping and buy their clothes and shoes based on how easily they can execute techniques in them and run! If they are anything like me then they don't drink either... what's the point in dedicating your life to martial arts if the one time you actually need it you are too drunk to effectively defend yourself with what you know?
Damian Mavis
Honour TKDComment
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Excellent point Damian!Originally posted by Damian Mavis
HandtoHand, there are many styles of MA that I don't care for very much. That doesn't mean that they suck or that certain of their techniques suck. It just means that I prefer other styles and/or techniques.
It's really upsetting to read from you and a few others in this forum that "this style sucks" and "that technique sucks". If you have a point to make, make it without insulting other arts or technique that you don't prefer.Comment
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High Kicks
Bullshido.net used to have a clip of Billy Blanks getting KTFO by a hook kick. "Mr. Perfect" Ernesto Hoost KOs opponents quite often with head kicks as does Peter Aerts. Manson Gibson fought against Thaiboxers with his fancy TKD style and often won.
I've used hook kicks, axe kicks and spinning kicks effectively when sparring, but never as a starting technique, because chances are if you're sparring someone with a kyokushin or muay thai background you'll be on your back quickly. Against most MA ists high kicks should be used sparringly.
Against boxers, they work well too; the catch is you have to be extremely quick other wise you get caught off balance with a barrage of short, crisp body and head shots during your kick retract.
The average street person does not expect to be kicked in the head or neck, but if your kick doesn't have enough power to atleast stun he will either kick your exposed groin or tackle you as a counter.
If you're going to fight with high or spinning kicks, they better be really quick and pack alot of power and have been tried and tested in sparring.Comment
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HandtoHand,
Glad to read your last post. Your points are quite valid.
I agree with you that low kicks are more simple and more effective (destructive), especially on the street when someone will not even have the chance to warm up and loosen their muscles.
High kicks in my opinion/experience are generally more effective in a combination and not alone. By this I mean the high kick should follow a previous strike. For exampe a jab followed by a spinning crescent kick to the head. I could mention many more combinations but I think I've clearly made my point.Comment
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Maxetai, that is a good point about not being able to kick to the head unless warmed up and stretched out. What's the point of learning head level kicks if you can't execute them when you need them? Granted some people are just naturally loose and flexible but I was definately not one of these people, it took me a long time to figure out the right formula of training that allows me to kick high cold. I found that if you strengthen your groin and hamstring muscles (I use the girly machines at the gym but you can use leg weights or even just your own weight) and then stretch them out every day or every second day then you develop the ability to kick high cold, up until I discovered this I was always stiff unless warmed up.
Handtohand, not sure I understand your question about back kick to the throat... I thought you were just telling me about an experience someone you knew had. Truth is back kick to the throat could be lethal, I've broken 8 inches of pine with back kick, the neck is only around the density of 4 inches. A solid back kick to the throat could crush it. It's a small and hard to get target with a kick though, always thought of throat strikes as something to do with the hand.
I don't understand your question about my friends experience with scalping his attacker so I'll give you a quick rundown on what happened in front of a ton of witnesses. My friend was about 135 lbs, high level competitor for WTF, has knocked out olympic medallists in the past. At a party, a much bigger boxer that hated his guts sucker punched him in the head and my friend told him to go outside. So they went outside, my friend in barefeet. First move was simple roundkick to the ribs by my friend but it winded the big boxer and he went down a bit, friend told him to stay down, which of course he did not. When he came towards him again my friend threw a lead leg hook kick (in my opinion not a powerful technique) regardless of that it came across his upper forehead and slashed a line diagonally down and across his nose. At this point the guys scalp (upper forehead) is cut open and nose is broken, he staggers into my friend and falls on him taking him down with his weight. All my friend said he could hear was "drip drip drip". it wasn't until later he realized it was the blood dripping beside him. To get the guy off he grabbed him by the forehead/hair and pulled back........ since the forehead was already cut open the scalp just tore right back. He got up and the other guy did not, the boxer was going into shock. He found out the damage, the boxer had to have reconstructive surgery to rebuild his nose and replace the tissue in his forehead that was torn out. When the cops came to him they just told my friend that from now on they will approach little guys with more caution. This is a town where everyone fights all the time (a small town right beside an Indian reservation, nothing to do but drink and fight).
A nice bedtime story for the kids!
Damian Mavis
Honour TKDComment
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[QUOTE=Damian Mavis]Maxetai, that is a good point about not being able to kick to the head unless warmed up and stretched out. What's the point of learning head level kicks if you can't execute them when you need them? Granted some people are just naturally loose and flexible but I was definately not one of these people, it took me a long time to figure out the right formula of training that allows me to kick high cold. I found that if you strengthen your groin and hamstring muscles (I use the girly machines at the gym but you can use leg weights or even just your own weight) and then stretch them out every day or every second day then you develop the ability to kick high cold, up until I discovered this I was always stiff unless warmed up.
Handtohand, not sure I understand your question about back kick to the throat... I thought you were just telling me about an experience someone you knew had. Truth is back kick to the throat could be lethal, I've broken 8 inches of pine with back kick, the neck is only around the density of 4 inches. A solid back kick to the throat could crush it. It's a small and hard to get target with a kick though, always thought of throat strikes as something to do with the hand.
I don't understand your question about my friends experience with scalping his attacker so I'll give you a quick rundown on what happened in front of a ton of witnesses. My friend was about 135 lbs, high level competitor for WTF, has knocked out olympic medallists in the past. At a party, a much bigger boxer that hated his guts sucker punched him in the head and my friend told him to go outside. So they went outside, my friend in barefeet. First move was simple roundkick to the ribs by my friend but it winded the big boxer and he went down a bit, friend told him to stay down, which of course he did not. When he came towards him again my friend threw a lead leg hook kick (in my opinion not a powerful technique) regardless of that it came across his upper forehead and slashed a line diagonally down and across his nose. At this point the guys scalp (upper forehead) is cut open and nose is broken, he staggers into my friend and falls on him taking him down with his weight. All my friend said he could hear was "drip drip drip". it wasn't until later he realized it was the blood dripping beside him. To get the guy off he grabbed him by the forehead/hair and pulled back........ since the forehead was already cut open the scalp just tore right back. He got up and the other guy did not, the boxer was going into shock. He found out the damage, the boxer had to have reconstructive surgery to rebuild his nose and replace the tissue in his forehead that was torn out. When the cops came to him they just told my friend that from now on they will approach little guys with more caution. This is a town where everyone fights all the time (a small town right beside an Indian reservation, nothing to do but drink and fight).
A nice bedtime story for the kids!
Oh, if you can't kick to the head as fast as you can kick to the leg than don't kick to the head! A skilled kicker can execute a lead leg head kick as fast if not faster than a rear leg thai thigh kick. You don't need as much power to do damage to the head than you do to the thigh so lead leg is feasible... but I prefer rear leg head level kicks for gauranteed power. Rear leg kick to the head is slower, but again the difference for a skilled kicker should be negligible and it should still be lightning fast.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKDComment
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that's what i mean before.....
That is what i mean before, that WingChun Low kick is more powerful than Muay Thai Kicks.Originally posted by HandtoHandAfter many years of debating, the experts concur, high kicks suck!!!
Well they are actually devestating when used correctly and in the right opurtunity but that opturnity is very, very rare. So it should be stressed that kicks should rarly get any higher than the groin area, and should be executed with lightning spead to prevent opponent from grabbing.Comment
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Sherwinc, you really beleive that the Wingchun low kick is more powerful than the Thai low kick? I am not an expert on Wingchun but I can't see anything being MORE powerful that the Thai low kick, maybe equal but I've never seen anything that was more powerful and I'm a kick expert. Thai low kick is used to break through 4 baseball bats taped together.... I can't see how anything could get stronger than that. Unless you meant Muay Thai high kicks and not ALL Muay Thai kicks like you stated?
HandtoHand, ya I meant back kick to the throat would suck... for the guy getting kicked heh. Dude! My name is Damian not Davian heh.
I have no idea how I double posted my last post...
Damian Mavis
Honour TKDComment
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tip.....
Low kicks are very hard to block or grab especially when the two hands perform wonders, its a kind of illusion to the eye when you are busy intercepting the two independent rushing fists while simultaeneously insertion of a low shadowless kick target to your kneecap..... (WingChun)Originally posted by HandtoHand
rather than.....
Left HighKicks with your Muay Thai leaving your Right leg vulnerable to the low kicks of WingChun.Comment
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here's the answer.....
WingChun will not execute LOW KICKS if you are in a Horse Riding Stance. While Muay Thai leg stance is straight then it is easy to break the kneecap, and it doesnt need to require a much stronger force. But if you add more force then you'll know what will happened more to Muay Thai's Leg if their stance is straight.Originally posted by Damian MavisComment
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Dude you are so full of poopoo. Why are Kung Fu guys stereotypically the most blatantly delusional? I mean, all martial arts are chock FULL of ego driven delusional ninny's that desperately want to believe their art is superior to everyone elses and they base this belief on heresay and guess work (and wishful thinking) with no actual combat experience against skilled opponents of the art they are cutting down. But Kung Fu wins the prize EVERY time! Muay Thai has it's share of ignorant foo's and TKD, and every art! But you Kung Fu guys are the worst! haha Break our knees because of our straight stance? Holy frickin ridiculous, go in the ring and try it, just try it with an opponent that gets to lay into you with every ounce of bone breaking power he has.... this is the only way you will see how ridiculous that statement is. Let's not forget that unlike TKD, Kung Fu practitioners throughout history have MANY documented cases of getting their asses handed to them by Muay Thai fighters, we are talking pictures, crowds and video! Geeze it got so ridiculous the Chinese stole Muay Thai, added some extra stuff and called it Sanshou!
Dude, don't dream about it or hope about it, test yourself! Come to Thailand like I did, hop in the ring and see if it really works! Otherwise don't talk about "what you think will happen" when you have no actual experience with it because it's completely foolish. I've used some Kung Fu and TKD effectively against Muay Thai, so I know what works... I also know what got me almost knocked the frik out and it definately did not work and I won't be trying that again!
Damian Mavis
Honour TKDComment
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DAMIAN I resent that you say the chinese "STOLE" anything from MT.Originally posted by Damian Mavis
FACTS ARE FACTS. The chinese innocently borrowed MT techniques they were getting their collective ass beat with, without permission or intention to return them or give any recognition to the Thai's. YOU CALL THAT STEALING!! This sacred techique was also used with the Greeks and Japanese for said art ........... but STEAL.......WHYYYYYY NEEEVVVVVER.
I can understand your resentment against invincible kung fu, I have studied No Won Sht for 85yrs under the founder. I am the first and only student slected to train under Great Grandfather...umm grandmaster Who YU Be.I am the only living heir to the style, the only one using the style and I an the 6th best fighter in my style of absolutley no style of No Won Sht......so HA
Our silent shadow deathstar kicks are legendary, Standing still 2 inchs from my opponent I can kick a man 9feet tall. My breaking technique start with Iron and move to titanium. I have fought all grappler including Jigaro Kano and Helio Gracie and found them lacking before my Iron tank top flee-run (advanced qi gong).
I have beaten all Thai fighters in my head which I believe with simulate real life. You Damian this is the profound elightenment of my kung fu, If I visualize it must truely be, this has saved me alot of time with training as I don't have to doit anymore I think it. In fact this is the reason I am able to date Selma Hayek and Shakira. You or course cannot understand this becuase of your infintile prehistoric thinking of MAs. You probably still believe to improve or maintain your skill you have to train and possibly use your technique in real life.....WELL I SAY HA-HA to you. I have beaten every figher in the world in and out of the ring and I have the mental construct to prove it.
I know it is difficult for you. Now you know all the fighting was for nothing. If you had learned good kung fu you would not have stretch workout and fight. The price for this great secret is high. You must never leave your house, if you ever do you must never use your technique, if you encounter trouble you must use wusslip form and do nothing for the techique are too dangerous even for you to practice.
Damian I hope this has been helpful in understanding my apprentice sherwinc's view of MAComment
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