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  • #16
    Originally posted by kuk sool won
    tkd_person89 i'd like to ask you that very same question, iv'e said this before and i'll say it again, i think the only reason you are CONSTANTLY creating these threads is because you doubt TKD yourself, if you doubt its capabilities then your basically saying it sucks aswell. Why do you feel the need to ask everybody what they think of TKD and why they think its not as good as it should be?
    I couldn't possible agree more with the above! When I first started on forums i was the same way. I was worried about if my club was a watered down version, so i went and cross-trained. I ended up sticking with my TKD school.

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    • #17
      What TKD needs is for this thread to close.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by kuk sool won
        I disagree with some of the disadvantages there, one of them Medic06 has already pointed out. Spear hands, palm fists, knife hands etc. are all extremely effective if you know how to use them. Martial arts isn't just about competing, in a self defence situation they can be remarkably useful but due to the sporting side of MA they aren't practiced in sparring and therefore aren't used. Why do you think they are in basically any art out there?
        Spear and knife hands have been preserved due to tradition, not because they work. When was the last time you saw a Korean Grandmaster use those techniques in any self-defense or sparring session? I seriously doubt the answer is anything outside of forms practice. Most of these techniques have been passed along for generations without question of their usefulness. In fact, many Grandmasters have never used martial arts in street defense or competition. All they know is that spear and knife hands are part of the curriculum.


        Originally posted by tkd_person89
        Everyone is enetitled to his own opinion but I very much disagree with PStevens.

        His post was no more than an implication that TKD sucks. I'd like to ask him why he thinks TKD sucks. Have you fought an ycompetent TKD artist, Stevens?

        Were you in a McDojo? Anything could've traumatized your opinion .....
        My post was in direct reponse to your question, “what does tkd need?” What did you expect me to say? Did you want me to lie and say, “nothing, everything’s all great and dandy in the TKD world.” You know as well as I do that TKDers can’t punch worth squat. And in the real world, punching is faster and more efficient. TKDers also have no idea what to do in clinch situations, other than to push off and execute a crescent kick.

        On a further note, I DID mention that I competed... I didn’t want to go into the details, because it would sound like bragging, but since you probed, I will tell you... I was something of a TKD prodigy in my neck of the woods - I’ve taken 1st place in sparring in nearly every one of the 19 tournaments I entered nationwide throughout 6 years. In fact, my first tournament was at Bae Yung Kim’s (mispelled) National in Minnesota when I was 9. I took 1st place in sparring, breaking and forms in the Blue to Brown Belt division.


        Originally posted by medic06
        I have to disagree. The forms have a place but should be the means and not the ends.
        Good form follows function. In the case of TKD, your forms only hinder. I don’t believe you get into your front stance, cross your arms, then proceed to low block during sparring, or do you?... You’re more likely move outside of range, parry or bridge the gap to avoid the blow. In which case, these techniques and the perfection of these techniques, should be your training.

        In TKD, you’re taught these rudimentary static postures, then expected to do a complete 180 when you’re sparring.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by pstevens
          Good form follows function. In the case of TKD, your forms only hinder. I don’t believe you get into your front stance, cross your arms, then proceed to low block during sparring, or do you?... You’re more likely move outside of range, parry or bridge the gap to avoid the blow. In which case, these techniques and the perfection of these techniques, should be your training.

          In TKD, you’re taught these rudimentary static postures, then expected to do a complete 180 when you’re sparring.
          You expect to use a training tool to fight? You wouldn't drop and do 50 pushups in the middle of a fight would you?

          Forms are designed to teach, well, form. They are only a small part of what your training should consist of. Like I said before, they are a means and not the end.

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          • #20
            No, no, no, no, no, no..... Forms and patterns are not meant to be put into a sparring stiuation like that. They are a logical transition of moves against an attacker or multiple attackers... And yes the chances of a fight going in similar way to a form are....well.....even less than you could imagine. What forms do achieve however is as you get better and better at your forms, because there will always be something you can do to make it better, that motion will become more natural and translate into sparring and realistic situations, making each technique better, how you piece it together is your decision. Also there is a very good reason us TKD'ers bring the hands up like that into a cross with the wrist back to wrist back, in fact its twofold:

            1. Should somone attack with a lot of power to your head its far better to have the two hands there protecting your head, many times when I spar full contact outside of my dojang my opponents will bring only one hand in a boxing style guard mostly, to stop a kick to the head, it just simply isn't enough if my foot makes contact. They end up either knocking their own head with their hand, or find themselves forced to buckle somewhat.

            2. Having the hands crossed as stated above allow for a quick counter if a punch is launched at ones head, grabbing the opponents arm with outer hand and using the innner hand to force them down on the shoulder, allowing for copious amounts of head kicking/arm breaking.

            Originally posted by pstevens
            Spear and knife hands have been preserved due to tradition, not because they work.
            I'm sorry but such is not the case, a spear or knife hand placed right is far more deadly than a standard punch. They are designed for soft places like eyes, throat and sometimes the ear/temples area (try getting hit on the ear it f*ggin hurts!). Admittedly landing one properly is difficult, but thats what training is for!

            Originally posted by pstevens
            I was something of a TKD prodigy in my neck of the woods - I’ve taken 1st place in sparring in nearly every one of the 19 tournaments I entered nationwide throughout 6 years. In fact, my first tournament was at Bae Yung Kim’s (mispelled) National in Minnesota when I was 9.
            Well whopee-dee-do! Your trained from at least the age of 9 to 15! That must mean you know and understand every aspect of TKD! I'm sorry but you can't claim to have great and total knowledge of TKD and its training by experiencing it as a kid and only as such.

            Originally posted by pstevens
            And in the real world, punching is faster and more efficient.
            Absoloute rubbish! Good TKD'ers can kick like a boxer punches i.e fast and hard. Just because you couldn't in your brief spell of TKD doesn't mean squat.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by medic06
              You expect to use a training tool to fight? You wouldn't drop and do 50 pushups in the middle of a fight would you?
              This is your analogy? Everyone knows push-ups are meant for body strength conditioning, whereas forms and static blocking are meant to emulate actual combat. There's the difference.

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              • #22
                Piston,

                6 years is a lot of time in TKD, considering it only takes 2-3 years to make black belt. And NEVER did I suggest to be an authority on TKD - I merely stated that it is lacking in several departments.

                Aside from that, your gross exaggerations of TKD are truly pathetic... There's no way a TKDer kicks faster than a boxer punching. I'd really like to see that one. Would that explain why in the in history of kickboxing, most champions were great boxers? Puahaha... I rest my case, these types of beliefs are what's wrong with TKD. End of discussion.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by pstevens
                  Piston,

                  6 years is a lot of time in TKD, considering it only takes 2-3 years to make black belt. And NEVER did I suggest to be an authority on TKD - I merely stated that it is lacking in several departments.

                  Aside from that, your gross exaggerations of TKD are truly pathetic... There's no way a TKDer kicks faster than a boxer punching. I'd really like to see that one. Would that explain why in the in history of kickboxing, most champions were great boxers? Puahaha... I rest my case, these types of beliefs are what's wrong with TKD. End of discussion.
                  Amen brother.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by pstevens
                    This is your analogy? Everyone knows push-ups are meant for body strength conditioning, whereas forms and static blocking are meant to emulate actual combat. There's the difference.

                    Nope, that's your intepretation

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by medic06
                      Nope, that's your intepretation
                      Actually thats fact....ever heard of one and two step sparring....there nothing more then a set pattern to a set attack from a reference point...forms are basically the same and will help your attributes but not your fighting skill.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by pstevens
                        Piston,

                        6 years is a lot of time in TKD, considering it only takes 2-3 years to make black belt. And NEVER did I suggest to be an authority on TKD - I merely stated that it is lacking in several departments.

                        Aside from that, your gross exaggerations of TKD are truly pathetic... There's no way a TKDer kicks faster than a boxer punching. I'd really like to see that one. Would that explain why in the in history of kickboxing, most champions were great boxers? Puahaha... I rest my case, these types of beliefs are what's wrong with TKD. End of discussion.
                        Did I say that a TKDer kicks faster than a boxer punching?
                        Originally posted by Piston
                        Good TKD'ers can kick like a boxer punches i.e fast and hard. Just because you couldn't in your brief spell of TKD doesn't mean squat.
                        Erm.....No, no I did not, I said that a good TKDer can kick LIKE a boxer punches, punching will always be quicker because its a shorter distance, however a good TKDer can kick rapidly and with considerable power, more than that of a punch.

                        And with your time in TKD, I'm not saying that you shouldn't be acting as an authority on TKD, 6 years in any MA does mean something, but from the age of 9-15....It wouldn't be the same as say someone learning from 20-26, because they are of greater mental maturity and thus are able to understand what they are doing better.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Lol..

                          "puahahahah"?

                          Are you joking, PStevens?

                          I think we've already established that you have no respect for TKD and are another one of those TKD bashers who have absolutely no idea what he is talking about.

                          You claimed to be a TKD prodigy??? My response: "Yeah right?"

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            JKD and I have been talking online for the past couple of days, and this is what we have established.

                            We have already established that all of the great fighters, even the traditional ones, like Oyama and Bruce, have crosstrained in multiple styles. Thus, it's clear that one must have many different styles and techniques hand to be a truly great fighter.

                            However, as a traditional standup fighting art, Taekwondo is just fine. In open martial arts competitions, between TKD vs Kungfu vs Karate vs Kickboxing, TKD has a very good record. As a single standup art, TKD is perfectly good against other single arts, although grapplers would be especially dangerous.

                            Also, people complain and yell about TKD's "complex" kicks like the back spin hook kick. They think they can just go over and "knock the guy" over. Well.. they're wrong. Why don't you try to knock down a fast Olympic champion doing a back spin hook kick? Many of TKD's so-called "complex" kicks have a place in fights. They are perfectly useful kicks. I agree, things like the "tornado kick" and "jump back spin hook kick" may not be the most realistic but it's clear that TKD is THE number 1 kicking art.

                            Also, roundhouse is the main kick of TKD guys anyway.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Piston,

                              My 6 years in TKD were under formal lessons... You know, paid for by my parents, under a Korean Master, in a dojang with other kids, etc... However, that was but one experience in my martial arts training. I went on to do boxing, MT, JJJ, some kung-fu here and there, BJJ and now more or less MMA. I'm speaking through an accumulation of these experiences, not as a 9 year old blue belt in TKD.

                              Now, in regards to your argument. TKD kicks CAN generate power, I don't dispute that, but they lack many things that boxing punches have, including: space, precision, economy of motion, and ofcourse the same speed of delivery. In short, if we relate this to the thread, knowing this - TKDers should invest in boxing and discard their attempts to mimic it.


                              tkd_person89,

                              I find it peculiar that you asked for feedback on the shortcomings of TKD, then criticize those who offer it. If TKD is as complete as you believe it is, then why don't we just leave it at that... Oh, and BTW... I was a TKD prodigy.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by pstevens
                                Piston,

                                My 6 years in TKD were under formal lessons... You know, paid for by my parents, under a Korean Master, in a dojang with other kids, etc... However, that was but one experience in my martial arts training. I went on to do boxing, MT, JJJ, some kung-fu here and there, BJJ and now more or less MMA. I'm speaking through an accumulation of these experiences, not as a 9 year old blue belt in TKD.

                                Now, in regards to your argument. TKD kicks CAN generate power, I don't dispute that, but they lack many things that boxing punches have, including: space, precision, economy of motion, and ofcourse the same speed of delivery. In short, if we relate this to the thread, knowing this - TKDers should invest in boxing and discard their attempts to mimic it.
                                You may have done all these other MA's but don't you think the point still remains that you might not have been able to learn as much as an older student of TKD for the same period of time? All to often people will point to the introduction of children into MA's as a source of weakness and watering-down, and to an extent they are right. To an extent.

                                To say that TKD lacks space (by this you mean range?), precision economy of motion and speed of delivery is well....ridiculous. If you think that an MA that focuses greater on specifically kicks, and lacks these things in its teaching, either your training was crap (remember there were, and still are a lot of bogus "korean masters", especially in America), or you simply didn't absorb it as many kids don't. The whole "child prodigy" thing is well....a little overstated you were *9* and competing in TKD in Minnesota alone...That doesn't make you brilliant.

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