Royce ANNIHILATED

[fightclubdotcom]

maybe you're right

from my experience all wrestlers i have trained with take a while to get good at bjj. but if I work just one takedown for 6 weeks prior to a tournament I can take (almost any wrestler down) wrestlers give up their back easily and get choked often. I guess it can go both ways.

word!

[jubaji]

from the sound of it jubaji doesnt train wrestling or BJJ.

From the sound of it you are an ignorant little punk who is getting ahead of himself.

[jubaji]

if I work just one takedown for 6 weeks prior to a tournament I can take almost any wrestler down

Oh, now its "almost". You are still full of shit.

[J-Luck]

from my experience all wrestlers i have trained with take a while to get good at bjj. but if I work just one takedown for 6 weeks prior to a tournament I can take (almost any wrestler down) wrestlers give up their back easily and get choked often. I guess it can go both ways.

word!

Give up their back, yes, but only as a segway to better position... That can be easily trained outa us. And, with wrestling, one can use escapes that only give the back up for less than half a second, and can completly better the position, even in BJJ!

I'm not sure you're xp is with good wrestlers. Actually, their probably not. If it's taking them more than 6 classes to beat other white belts(which is how long it's taken me, and I'm not a very good wrestler), than I doubt their even at my skill, which Isn't saying a whole lot for them. I also, as you would have seen reading the thread, am going to a renowned school. Not FAMOUS, but recognised with repect.

Like I said, with the takedown, you're either A. lucky... which like I already stated would be a flawed theory alone, becuase it's inherent that you replicate this take down multiple times, B. You're very athletic, C. You've got way more mat time than them, D. You're a prodigy, or E. They suck. It could also be a combo of these... none of them really qualifying the majority of bjj practitioners of equal experience as thier wrestling counter parts to have your experience.

You've not addressed my points. I like to debate logically... so if we can keep it that way, I'd like it.

[J-Luck]

from my experience all wrestlers i have trained with take a while to get good at bjj. but if I work just one takedown for 6 weeks prior to a tournament I can take (almost any wrestler down) wrestlers give up their back easily and get choked often. I guess it can go both ways.

word!

I've never seen someone good at bjj do well against their counterparts in wrestling, even after the adjustment. I think it's simply not as complete an art. Now, don't get me wrong, I've seen them do better than average joe, but not as well as the opposite situation.

[DaNutz]

I think wrestling is a more complete science/art. I really do, though in and of themselves, strictly grappling, bjj wins.

Hmm...So if your saying wrestling is more "complete" because the
takedowns are better thus making the art more complete, I suppose
you may be right....But complete in the sense of technique, I disagree...
There are just too many moves/submissions (and more positions) in
JJ....And taking in combinations the possibilities exponentially grow
to astronomically huge numbers.

So "complete" by my definition I disagree....Also wrestling is from an
MMA/fighting perspective INCOMPLETE in its very nature...The
primary object of the sport is to pin an opponent and being limited to no bottom game makes it less complete (at least from a pure grappling
perspective)

I have a theory that the next phase of MMA fighters will be to incorporate
more Judo takedowns to make them more complete fighters....We
see too many good wrestlers in MMA that counter the takedown
or other fighters (including Diego Sanchez the wrestler in his last
fight) struggle for the takedown....Really the only thing lagging in MMA.

And saying that it will take a wrestler a "small amount of time"...i dont
get this....If you take an MMA fighter like Matt Hughes who trains
5 days a week, a few hrs a day, then maybe he could learn no-gi
jiu jitsu very well in 3-4 years(which he did).....Other than that, I agree with
fightclub, it aint easy....There could be lots of reasons your tapping
white belts after 6 lessons...I doubt your tapping the more experienced
white belts..If you are, hats off to you, because your
a natural....The wrestler Ive been rolling with the past month,
said he wrestled 2 weight classes above his weight (we're both about
155), he's been in class 2 months, is in great shape, and about
10 years younger....He basically rolls like a total newbie...
Nothing special AT ALL...My point being, we all have our own experiences.
I think once youve been around for a year you'll start to see that
in general wrestlers dont just come into class and start wiping the
mat with decent white belts after 6 sessions unless they're perhaps
much stronger.

BTW, Im not trying to diss wrestlers...I just think for MMA/fighting
that its not as good as JJ....Its certainly better for developing
strenght/cardio and a no quit attitude, and your much better
off having trained in it than many other martial arts.

[fightclubdotcom]

alright already

jeeze guys, forget I mentioned it. All I'm saying is from my experience all the wrestlers I have faced get submitted very quickly. Maybe we should just test it. If any of you are ever in the Washington DC area come to my school and we'll test you skills. How about that? In the mean time let's see some of your fights and matches. Go to www.fightclub.com and upload any fight or grappling match or wrestling match you have and show me.

[J-Luck]

When I go into tournaments... I will send the videos to you. Sure wrestlers get beat quickly... we established that. But how quickly the learn and take to BJJ is what we were debating....

[J-Luck]

I think wrestling is a more complete science/art. I really do, though in and of themselves, strictly grappling, bjj wins.

Hmm...So if your saying wrestling is more "complete" because the
takedowns are better thus making the art more complete, I suppose
you may be right....But complete in the sense of technique, I disagree...
There are just too many moves/submissions (and more positions) in
JJ....And taking in combinations the possibilities exponentially grow
to astronomically huge numbers.

So "complete" by my definition I disagree....Also wrestling is from an
MMA/fighting perspective INCOMPLETE in its very nature...The
primary object of the sport is to pin an opponent and being limited to no bottom game makes it less complete (at least from a pure grappling
perspective)

I have a theory that the next phase of MMA fighters will be to incorporate
more Judo takedowns to make them more complete fighters....We
see too many good wrestlers in MMA that counter the takedown
or other fighters (including Diego Sanchez the wrestler in his last
fight) struggle for the takedown....Really the only thing lagging in MMA.

And saying that it will take a wrestler a "small amount of time"...i dont
get this....If you take an MMA fighter like Matt Hughes who trains
5 days a week, a few hrs a day, then maybe he could learn no-gi
jiu jitsu very well in 3-4 years(which he did).....Other than that, I agree with
fightclub, it aint easy....There could be lots of reasons your tapping
white belts after 6 lessons...I doubt your tapping the more experienced
white belts..If you are, hats off to you, because your
a natural....The wrestler Ive been rolling with the past month,
said he wrestled 2 weight classes above his weight (we're both about
155), he's been in class 2 months, is in great shape, and about
10 years younger....He basically rolls like a total newbie...
Nothing special AT ALL...My point being, we all have our own experiences.
I think once youve been around for a year you'll start to see that
in general wrestlers dont just come into class and start wiping the
mat with decent white belts after 6 sessions unless they're perhaps
much stronger.

BTW, Im not trying to diss wrestlers...I just think for MMA/fighting
that its not as good as JJ....Its certainly better for developing
strenght/cardio and a no quit attitude, and your much better
off having trained in it than many other martial arts.

Wait... did you read ANY OF THE THREAD lol... I stated multiple times on different pages in detail why I thought it was better, good to read a thread before you post(no offense).

It lacks subs... again you would have seen this had you read the thread... but besides this it's more complete. I think the positioning skills and body control skills taught in wrestling are definitly superior than in jj. Which would be why wrestlers take so well to BJJ. I think it's a more complete art in all aspects other than subs.

Judo takedowns are inferior... their throws however are superior than wrestlings... I think both should be learned.

I don't agree at all... everyone asked me off the bat... "did you wrestle... or take judo"??? That tells me something. Even the practitioners could tell. They new there was something different, and they asked the same thing to two other guys who were former wrestlers, and the wrestlers themselves told me that it's not a difficult transition... that it takes some time to learn the positions, but once you have learned the advantages/disadvantages, dos and don'ts, it's not a whole lot different than wrestling. At least from the position standpoint. And, I've heard a bunch of people keep telling me "position before submission"... it might be a local thing but I mean, we as wrestlers already have that.

[fightclubdotcom]

sorry buddy

J-luck,

Sorry buddy. I guess I didn't read your post. I've been responding to a lot of different posts at one time. I agree with you totally. My bad. I'm not dissing wrestlers either. As long as someone trains something I'm happy for them.

[GQchris]

I was going to take BJJ, but now wrestling seems a better option,
thanks J-luck, I came this close to joining the nuthugger sheeple,LOL j/k

[fightclubdotcom]

Bjj

you should definately take up BJJ. It will change your life.

[SamuraiGuy]

Okay, I missed a day, but...

Did I answer your question or respond to what it is you wanted? I wasnt sure.

I would like to remark on your Judo thing.

Many people feel the contrary of what you stated. Here's why...

Judo can be adopted to No-Gi fairly easily.

It provides the best and most complete clinch and takedown game?

Greco-Roman you say? Doesnt let you attack the legs how can that be more complete than Judo which has all the upper body of Greco, plus foot sweeps, leg reaps, etc...

Judo has the superior clinch game over wrestling for this reason. YOU CAN EASILY ADOPT IT TO NO-GI.

Second, the argument comes, "screw the clinch game, I'm going for a shot"... well more and more we see the shot being less and less effective, the shot and wrestling's "leg" takedowns, are probably the best for pure grappling, in MMA, when you add in knee's, wicked sprawls, counter punching, etc.. It loses its effectiveness. Sure Matt Hughes is gonna double leg pretty much anyone he chooses, others not so much.

I as well as others also feel having a good clinch takedown game is better than a "outside" takedown game, as it gives you skills for striking in the clinch, and alot of time spent in fights is in the clinch. Whether its pressed up against the cage, or what have you.

Dont discount Judo my friend, did you see Paulo Filho's latest fight, he's not even a real "Judo guy", he's a blackbelt in Judo, but he's more Jiu Jitsu than anything. He launched the guy with an amazing Uchi Mata, and had several nice double legs as well.

I'm not saying Judo is superior to wrestling, well maybe I am, you know what, lets say they are equal, hell we can even say wrestling is better if you want, DO NOT discount the judo though.

Ever hear of a Pawel Nastula.... many people think he's the next pride heavy weight champ... hmmmm a world class (and I mean world class) judoka, taking over from another judoka. What a thought.


(Tanto01, I still havent switched teams lol).

[fightclubdotcom]

You're right about Judo. I know a guy who's a world class Judo Champion and didn't know anything about Jiu-Jitsu 3 years ago. The guy just got his purple belt and almost wins every BJJ division he competes in. He's a badass!!

[fightclubdotcom]

The cool thing about BJJ is that if you know you are going up against a judo student, pull guard immediately and triangle the SOB.