Mixed Martial Arts, One of the oldest forms of fighting.

[Tom Yum]

That looks mighty familiar...

Yeah, it is. Grappling arts have as much crossover as striking ones. Heck, I bet shuaijiao probably has alot of overlap with freestyle

[Tom Yum]

So what is a traditional martial art?

Muaythai is often called a ring sport, but its been around for atleast 1,000 years. Prior to its modernization in the 1920's, matches were fought to the death. Does this make it a combat sport or a traditional art?

Kyokushin karate holds kumite and is done full-contact, but the founder, Mas Oyama, studied Chinese kenpo as a youth and then Shotokan as a young adult. Does this make it a mixed martial art or a traditional martial art?

Judo, the gentleway, was a refinement of Jujitsu designed to take out the moves that were too deadly. Is this a combat sport or a traditional art - afterall it is called the "gentle way" which to some may sound feminine. Even jujitsu means the "gentle art" even though the moves are far from gentle...

[Tom Yum]

Yeah, but that would never work for real. It's a sport move, and trying to do something like that will get you killed. In fact, you're being very, very irresponsible for even suggesting that anyone interested in real self-defense even watch this video....

Can you imagine that throw on a sidewalk? Owtch!!

That's a riot..lol.

The arguments between combatives or TMA vs. MMA always polarize into reality vs. sport, when in fact both are correct.

There are reality-based or traditional systems that teach useable moves that are unfamilar to the sports world, but work because they are technically sound AND no one has seen and aren't expecting it. A really, really good example of this is the Tukong Musool system that is used by the Korean SF - the master instructor took what works from traditional Chinese and Korean arts - and these guys have proven themselves effective in close quarters well before they demonstrated it in Vietnam. Another example is the Yoshinkan Aikido system used by the Japanese police force. If I'm not mistaken, they use many open handed strikes to set up restraining locks and sweeps.

Likewise most of what is used in combat sports is practiced religiously against resisting opponents and works under live fire because it is practiced as such. Boxing and wrestling work because they train against opponents that resist and strike or grapple in return. Most TMA instructors will admit that boxing is an effective striking method and that they themselves would have difficulty handling a boxers hand speed and power.

If I'm not mistaken, the Marines switched from LINE to MCMAP because the LINE system injured too many Marines during practice and that Marines killed people in civillian life when using the system for self-protection. But to say that the new stuff doesn't work is also silly, as getting lapel choked or arm-barred are equally crippling and deadly, except you can practice them without losing training partners.

[Tom Yum]

Yeah, but that would never work for real. It's a sport move, and trying to do something like that will get you killed. In fact, you're being very, very irresponsible for even suggesting that anyone interested in real self-defense even watch this video....

Can you imagine that throw on a sidewalk? Owtch!!

That's a riot..lol.

The arguments between combatives or TMA vs. MMA always polarize into reality vs. sport, when in fact both are correct.

There are reality-based or traditional systems that teach useable moves that are unfamilar to the sports world, but work because they are technically sound AND no one has seen and aren't expecting it. A really, really good example of this is the Tukong Musool system that is used by the Korean SF - the master instructor took what works from traditional Chinese and Korean arts - and these guys have proven themselves effective in close quarters well before they demonstrated it in Vietnam. Another example is the Yoshinkan Aikido system used by the Japanese police force. If I'm not mistaken, they use many open handed strikes to set up restraining locks and sweeps.

Likewise most of what is used in combat sports is practiced religiously against resisting opponents and works under live fire because it is practiced as such. Boxing and wrestling work because they train against opponents that resist and strike or grapple in return; knocking someone out by a punch or by a choke is enough to stop a fight. Most TMA instructors will admit that boxing is an effective striking method and that they themselves would have difficulty handling a boxers hand speed and power.

If I'm not mistaken, the Marines switched from LINE to MCMAP because the LINE system injured too many Marines during practice and that Marines killed people in civillian life when they themselves were assaulted. But to say that the new stuff doesn't work is also silly, as getting lapel choked or arm-barred are equally crippling and deadly, except you can practice them without losing training partners.

[jubaji]

Anyhow, a throw like this is just a little on the scary side...

That looks mighty familiar...

[Uke]

Tom Yum

The reason why karate, kung-fu and savate lost its popularity in the US is because they became less and less full-contact and more and more excercise; other traditional martial arts like muaythai, kyokushin and jiujitsu (both traditional and brazillian) never lost their full-contact, spontaneous flavor.

The instructor still has to pay bills and if he can't give customers what they want, he'll have to close his school. Apparently, many who train in MA want easy training and are happy to shell out the $$$$ to get the next rank, shed a few pounds and learn about another culture. The MMA movement has taken the students that tried out these kinds of schools and could not get dynamic, live-training.

I have trained with Korean/Japanese/Chinese stylists who were the real deal, so I know those systems can be effective. I've never doubted them, because I have seen them use their stuff - but its the fact that these men (MA instructors) had to water down their training to keep their business running and reduce injuries in their dojang or guan.

I'm not an MMA nuthugger, but I'm not arguing opinions here.

This is the exact point that I was making and some still don't understand it, Tom. All anyone had to do was read what was I wrote on the previous pages of this topic. Perhaps coming from you that point will be a bit more palatable.

[Tom Yum]

Just curious.... can you describe these throws??? Im aware of many throws that can kill or cripple people if executed a certain way, but they are still used in competition.

I guess you're right.

San Shou (Red) vs. Kyokushin (blue).

I've been told the goal of shuaijiao (chinese wrestling) is to throw your opponent from the greatest height possible so as to do the most damage. Sanshou borrows from shuiajiao if I'm not mistaken - kind of follows the same scoring rules as freestyle wrestling in that you get more points for a bigger throw.

Anyhow, a throw like this is just a little on the scary side...

[Garland]

I saw him learning Thai Boxing and BJJ from Jean Jacques Machado, Shooto from Yori and Erik.

Speaking of which...Sensei Paulson is one funny dude.
This was back in 2005 I think, he's working with two of my old trainers and stable mates, Coach Brandon Kiser and Khru Brian Yamasaki...if you look closely, the kid with the black afro sitting in the righthand corner is me..(one with yellow thai shorts, and the other with just normal shorts)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxGhfvBOaGE

This one is hillarious

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaO7V10dm1w&mode=related&search=

[Tom Yum]

Uke

Lastly, what's wrong with comraderie among martial artists? You keep dogging on the Marine Corps mentality and comraderie.

Most Chinese and Japanese MA (and even Chinese-Japanese mixed styles) are organized by families (or clans) with which there is great comraderie within that family.

In those styles it is very important.

[Tom Yum]

Tom, we've had this debate before. MMA are not proficient at any one range. And your point about who would win between MMA or boxing/K-1 in an alley is meaningless here. K-1 fighters and boxers are aware that they're training for sports. MMA fighters are the only ones who seem to be indifferent about that.

I think you are referring to guys who've never trained outside of MMA.

MMA is a sport and is sufficient for self-defense in a lot of cases. Look if someone gets me in a headlock and I sweep them to the ground and lapel choke them, that's much more humane (and more legally justifiable use of force) than other release maneuvers. If you're life really is threatened, I can see where you want the later.

So it makes sense that you'd highlight a boxer like Briggs to strengthen your argument. Briggs is also a part time model and actor. Maybe he can add that to his crosstraining resume too. And don't make me look for the film where Rijker gets immediate knocked out by a kickboxer when she ventures out of women's boxing. Please..

The facts still remain.

Briggs KO'd an MMA fighter in the first round, decided that he'd rather not fight in K-1 because he can't handle leg kicks. He still had to use his skills in a real confrontation against two athletic monsters who would have otherwise stomped him into the ground.

You can make fun of his modeling/acting and cross-training but the facts speak for themselves.

Karate, kung fu, savate, and most other arts have kicked and punched before MMA existed. Those arts have been well rounded before you or I existed. So its a bit silly to begin pretending that the well roundness of kicking, punching and other striking began with MMA events. The roundness term comes from the fact that MMA threw submission wrestling into the mix. NOT A THING ELSE..

The reason why karate, kung-fu and savate lost its popularity in the US is because they became less and less full-contact and more and more excercise; other traditional martial arts like muaythai, kyokushin and jiujitsu (both traditional and brazillian) never lost their full-contact, spontaneous flavor.

The instructor still has to pay bills and if he can't give customers what they want, he'll have to close his school. Apparently, many who train in MA want easy training and are happy to shell out the $$$$ to get the next rank, shed a few pounds and learn about another culture. The MMA movement has taken the students that tried out these kinds of schools and could not get dynamic, live-training.

I have trained with Korean/Japanese/Chinese stylists who were the real deal, so I know those systems can be effective. I've never doubted them, because I have seen them use their stuff - but its the fact that these men (MA instructors) had to water down their training to keep their business running and reduce injuries in their dojang or guan.

I'm not an MMA nuthugger, but I'm not arguing opinions here.

Briggs still KO'd an MMA fighter in the first round (as a boxer) but retired because he can't handle leg kicks. He cross trained and later got into an altercation which he got out of, because of his cross-training and had to pay fines for hurting two superior athletes whom would have otherwise stomped him.

This is how being well-rounded is a benefit.

But thanks for stopping by, Tom. Always great to see you.

My pleasure.

[Tom Yum]

If you're trying to disarm someone with a knife, you're put into a grappling situation because you're trying to control that arm.

I know nothing about Mongolian wrestling other from what I've read. It's still practiced as a sport and there are several versions of it, some which allow sweeping, some which allow grabbing the legs (like freestyle) and some which allow kicks.

The mongolians compete in Chinese shuajiao and seem to dominate. Some go into Sanshou - same thing. Geriletu is a mongolian wrestler who transitioned to san shou and seems to have done decently.

Again, I have no experience in the art - but I'm thinking its something akin to catch wrestling or pankration.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

...the original art was taught to the Military and is 18 simple moves that resulted in either a broken neck or snapped limb period. All counters did more damage than the original attack, there are no breakfalls because that requires stopping fighting. It most definitely is not a sport, do they combine it with the folk wrestling they do? No. Do the folk wrestlers know this form and use its associated training techniques? Probably not, it isn't a sport. NONE of the attacks are legal in ANY ring anywhere.

Just curious.... can you describe these throws??? Im aware of many throws that can kill or cripple people if executed a certain way, but they are still used in competition.

And arent you against using throws or any type of grappling in a fight because you can get stabbed? or did you contradict yourself?

[J-Luck]

One more thing. Those guys you mentioned... and MANY MANY MORE... are not TMA anymore, they are MMA guys. They all say it. In interviews, on their websites... and so on. Included in this is Chuck Liddell, Bas Rutten, Randy Couture, Matt Hughes, BJ Penn, Sean Sherk, Jeff Monson, Dean Lister, and the list goes ON.

I really would love to name more, but I think others will get the point(something you probably wont be able to do, becuase of course, your crit. thinking skills are somewhat... lacking).

[J-Luck]

Any effective martial arts system must have a base that ties all of its techniques together. For example, many Philippine systems use the techniques of stick fighting as their base. Familiarization with the techniques translates into both empty hand and bladed weapon techniques. So the fighter can easily flow between the different types of combat with the same techniques.

Along these same lines, NinJitsu and many Japanese Jiu-Jitsu systems teach stick fighting as an extension of standing grappling techniques. The stick serves more to increase the fighters leverage for the same techniques than as a stand-alone weapon.

In this same way the concept of dominant body position from Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is the base for Modern Combatives. The dominant positions are the spine that connects all of the techniques. A fighter always knows what he is fighting for. Even one class can then produce a better fighter by simply giving him a sense of what his objective is.

The reason that the ground grappling technique of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is so advanced is that it is practiced in “free play”. In other words you can actually do it, real-time, against a fully resisting opponent. It is this concept of “free play” that all of the base arts of Modern Combatives have in common. Wrestling, Judo, Boxing, Muay Thai, its easy to see the connection. Each of these however not only exhibits the strength of free play training, but also its weakness. The practitioners of each have allowed their particular arena to become the focus of their training.

By looking for the limitations of each form of free play, we can identify where the artificial boundaries have been placed between the techniques and consciously work to reintegrate them. As a fighter begins to learn how the techniques fit together. The principle factor is range.

The three basic ranges of combat are: projectile weapon range, striking range, and grappling range. As he becomes more competent and confident moving between the ranges, the concepts of controlling the angle and the level are introduced. Soldiers are taught that the fighter who controls the range, angle, and level can dictate what techniques will dominate the fight.

As fighters progress through the system, they learn the language of fighting, understanding what is happening at any time during the fight. This is a prerequisite to understanding fight strategy. To be successful, a fighter must have a strategy. For instance, a boxer has the basic strategy of striking his opponent with his fists until he is rendered unconscious. The basic fight strategy that we teach is: close the distance, gain a dominant position, and finish the fight. As a fighter develops higher-level skills he also gains the ability to use the higher-level strategies that are dependent on those skills.

In real fights people bite, shove their thumb in your eye, grab your testicles and more significantly have friends with weapons who are more than happy to jump in. These things must always be considered during training. You may never know that your enemy is armed until it is too late. You must therefore always assume that he is. Your techniques must always be grounded in these realities.

Just as we teach techniques in order, based on the ease with which they can be learned, we also teach from the simplest scenarios building to the more complex. The difference is only one of degrees. The techniques and strategies for instance that are used for one on one unarmed fighting must teach the principles and body mechanics necessary to learn the higher level techniques required in more difficult scenarios such as armed opponents or multiple enemies.




This is from the site under the heading, "training".

[J-Luck]

Why are you guys still debating him? After he tried to argue the army doesn't use bjj for weapon defense and MMA as an official combatatives program, people should have understood how idiodic he is.

Logic and reasoning are not Uke's strong points, nor are they characteristics that he even pretends to exibit.

Oh, just to show you your lack of insight, intelligence, and research skills, here is the official website. http://www.moderncombatives.org/training.html