Terrible Technique

[Maxetai]

I know this is going to stir alot of arguments up, but I belive most Muay Thai techniques are just plain terrible. I believe most Muay Thai fighters are hardcore but that is just because they train hardcore. I mean there kicks are slow. They dont even bother with a lot of good kicks. They have no open handed techniques hence the gloves. I think the only good aspect of muay thai is there training regimen. I would love to find a taekwondo school with that same hardcore approach to training. If one exists I guarantee that there are students at that school that could wipe the floor with any muay thai stylist. That doesn't just go for taekwondo either it would be the same for alot of tma's. I believe most tma's have way superior technique then muay thai but there training is severely lacking.

bvermillion, Don't mix up theatrics with functionality.
Who's stopping the TMA in training hardcore? Perhaps their own lazy attitudes?
Maybe you can inject heavy duty training in TMA? Try it and see what you'll come up with. Hint: Don't be surprised if what you come up with starts to look more like Muay Thai!

[William Eriepa]

I dont know if you have any experience with snap kicks or not but if so you were taught them alot different then I was. I have always been taught to follow through your target then snap back.

What are you saying? That you put all your power to hit through a target, then if you hit it, you snap back from there? Well duh. Thats exactly what MT guys do! I mean your not going to keep your leg up there are you? No, your gonna bring it back down as fast as you can.

Not that bruce lee was the greatest or anything but he even preferred the snap kick. He taught speed as not how fast you can throw a technique but how fast you can pull it back and be ready to throw another one. It all depends on how you train. I think you can throw a pretty devastating snap kick. Of course it wont be as powerful as a thai kick but if need be you will be ready to throw another one where as it takes longer to be ready to throw a second or even third thai kick. I practice thai style round kicks as well I just use them for different situations. It just depends on whose rules you are fighting by or even if there are rules.

Bruce perferred the snaps kicks at first, but later on in his life started to roll his hips into his kicks. He most likely got this from Savate.
Snap kicks aren't going to stop a person from comming in at close range. If thats all your throwing, then it doesn't matter if your ready to throw another one or not, your opponent is just gonna come in, unaffected by the snap kicks you are throwing, then its good night Irene.
The only good snap kick is to the groin and the knee, luckily, this is covered by the kickboxing rules.

[William Eriepa]

posted by SOUTHPAW
I come from a strong boxing backround with not a lot of other MA training before moving into MT. The Thai style is very familiar to me because of my background

Really? The MT guys I have seen, and the MT guy I fought never put their body into their punches. They all just threw it from the shoulder, even up close. This is much different to punching in boxing format. I practice Kickboxing, and we throw ourselves into our punches.

posted by bvermillion
Obviously someone else that didn't read the whole thread. If you had you wouldn't have thought it was bashing at all.

LoL. Lets not forget what was originally posted.

I belive most Muay Thai techniques are just plain terrible..... I mean there kicks are slow..... They dont even bother with a lot of good kicks..... I guarantee that there are students at that school that could wipe the floor with any muay thai stylist. That doesn't just go for taekwondo either it would be the same for alot of tma's. I believe most tma's have way superior technique then muay thai.

Not bashing at all eh?

posted by Damian Mavis
BUT the same is said of the reverse! Put a muay thai guy into a TKD format and make them fight by TKD rules and they will most assuredly be defeated! It is happening in Thailand! High level pro Muay Thai fighters have gone to WTF TKD tournaments in Thailand thinking they could beat them at their own game and all of them lost by a huge margin or got knocked out right away.

What are the main differences between Muay Thai, and WTF TKD rules? I find it hard to believe that a professional Muay Thai fighter, or Kickboxer would be KO'd "right away" from a tap on the head .

posted by jules
K-1 is not a MT format. If anything it is designed to give Karatekas a chance against MT guys. ANd TKD if anything is more like karate rather than MT.

A solid statement indeed.

[bvermillion]

Quote:
posted by bvermillion
Obviously someone else that didn't read the whole thread. If you had you wouldn't have thought it was bashing at all.

LoL. Lets not forget what was originally posted.

"I belive most Muay Thai techniques are just plain terrible..... I mean there kicks are slow..... They dont even bother with a lot of good kicks..... I guarantee that there are students at that school that could wipe the floor with any muay thai stylist. That doesn't just go for taekwondo either it would be the same for alot of tma's. I believe most tma's have way superior technique then muay thai."



And lets read on later where I admitted I was wrong in my wording. I only meant to question the reasons that mt fighters excluded certain techniques. To whoever said tkd sparring was just a little tap on the head is definately not experienced in tkd. We wear chest protectors because ribs get broke. I kid you not about three weeks ago I broke a guys rib with a hook kick. It was a accident I came up under the chest protector and got one of his lower ribs. Tkd has got powerful techniques alot of people just dont put power behind them. If I am sparring a women I am not going to put as much into it or if I am kicking someone of lower rank or stature. We have respect for each other. We go hard when we are with a partner who desires to go hard. Mt isn't like this there aren't many moms, little kids, or older people involved in mt. Just because there bodies wont let them do mt or dont want to get hurt doesn't mean they cant learn to protect themselves in a controlled enviroment. Some people consider having programs for kids and women as a disadvantage I don't. But even if it is all styles have disadvantages. At my tkd school we recognize the advantages and disadvantages of pure tkd. We incorporate other techniques and styles to cover for where tkd is lacking. Now there is a WTF tkd school that is pure tkd they dont incorporate other things into it. No knock on WTF thats just this particular one. I am positive there are ATA schools that are the same way. This isn't neccesarily bad I just dont consider it a martial art it is a sport. Just like wrestling. For it to be a martial art you have to realize where it is lacking if it is and fix it. Wrestling is definately lacking as a pure martial art. Too many techniques are based on the fact the your opponent doesn't want to be on there back this is just not the case on the street you don't win by a pin so people on the street don't worry about pins. Now I believe wrestling is a great sport that will aid you in your martial arts training that is why I wrestled.

[Damian Mavis]

I came on this thread to correct the poster Bvermillion because it was obvious he didn't know anything about Muay Thai and has never trained it but I saw so many ridiculous misconceptions from the MT guys that it has become obvious they don't know what they are talking about either.

I thought by now people knew I'm pretty much in the middle here and I have the least reason of anyone to be biased. I run a TKD school but train and fight in Muay Thai in Thailand and love everything about it. I see EXACTLY what is going on in both worlds whereas everyone else is just making assumptions and forming opinions based on non experience.

Ok first, if you know TKD you know K1 is so far from it.... the TKD game is nothing like K1 and when you add the leg kicks and knees of K1 it gets even further away from TKD. That was not a solid argument at all haha. How on earth is it more similar to TKD?! I guess TKD people across the globe should be flattered that you think K1 is similar to what we do! WTF TKD has no leg kicks, no punching to the head, rarely any forward stance and rarely any blocking (they mostly evade then counter) and no knees.... Muay Thai has all that and more! So which one is more like K1? geeze it's pretty obvious heh. Put a Muay Thai guy straight into K1 and they will most likely dominate and have a good chance of doing well... put a TKD guy straight into K1 with no other training and they will be eaten alive. Muay Thai's game is so much closer to K1's game then TKD's game it's ridiculous and I'm shocked at the lack of knowledge on the part of some of these posters....Muay Thai has a few extra weapons (elbows and stand up grappling) whereas WTF TKD is actually missing most of the K1 weapons (boxing to the head, knees, leg kicks, proper blocks) so which is more similar? The one with extra or the one missing most of the info?

Alrighty, so you find it hard to beleive that a Muay Thai guy would get knocked out right away in TKD tournys? So If you're good at Muay Thai you could go and play basketball really well too? I just don't get the arrogance I'm seeing.... They are completely different, the way Olympic TKD moves and evades is a science to them. They have a limitted set of rules that makes certain things pretty much the same across the board and if you try to deviate from it you lose at their game... hmmm just kind of like Muay Thai!

And knock out encompasses body knock out (get hit in the ribs and you can't get up so you lose) so it's not as important if your guard is covering your head like a maniac. But apparently they were getting knocked out to the head too... (and to the idiot that asked how they could get knocked out from weak snappy kicks, I've knocked out about 20 guys over the past 13 years in TKD... guess someone should have told them that they weren't allowed to get knocked out from my weak snappy kicks) You can't use that guard and win anyway, it leaves a bunch of spots open for points that would ensure your loss in seconds. Remember you are not allowed to shield! Again I'm freaking shocked at the lack of knowledge. If you don't fight the way the olympic TKD guys fight you will lose in Olympic TKD ,that sould be obvious but no, people actually think all you need in life is Muay Thai to excell at anything.... hmmm why no gold medallists at the olympics in TKD from Thailand... and ones from Muay Thai no less?!?!?!? They tried their hand at it (who wouldn't want a shot at the olympics especially since MT isn't in the olympics) and lost horribly.

I figured my word by now would be good enough, since I've always been pretty reasonable but I will do my best to see where I can find proof of the unbelievable claim that Muay Thai guys lost at olympic style TKD tournaments... heh can't beleive that is so hard to beleive. 2 of my buddies here in Thailand witnessed it with their own eyes but I'll see if it was in the news or something I can rub in your face heh.

When are people going to accept that different arts have different rule sets and that the way you fight in one rule set WILL NOT be be usable in another? You have to learn the game of a new art or format, you can't just walk in with knowledge of one art and expect to win.

I'll say it again, you take any art and put it into a new format and it will more often than not lose unless they train the new format. Whether you go from boxing to TKD, TKD to MT, MT to TKD, MT Judo or whatever! However! Going to a very similar format and you have a damn good chance.... like MT to K1!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[William Eriepa]

And lets read on later where I admitted I was wrong in my wording.

Oh, not terrible technique, just lacking technique eh?

To whoever said tkd sparring was just a little tap on the head is definately not experienced in tkd.

Well a snap kick isn't exactly gona take off my head now is it.

Just to let you know, I practiced Kyokushin for 4 years, and now compete in Kickboxing.
My trainer comes from a TKD and Judo background. I don't consider myself to be learning either of his arts either, I am learning how to Kickbox, he teaches what he believes is affective in the ring.
I am well aware of how to do a hook kick, and how effective it can be at the right time. My point is, is that the many snap kicks I learnt from Karate, and the many snap kicks I have seen TKD practitioners use are plain silly and uneffective.

For it to be a martial art you have to realize where it is lacking if it is and fix it.

LoL. No it doesn't. Thats JKD.

[William Eriepa]

That was not a solid argument at all haha.

Well he said:
K-1 is not a MT format. If anything it is designed to give Karatekas a chance against MT guys. ANd TKD if anything is more like karate rather than MT.
And he makes a point. K-1 has no elbows, you can only grapple, knee once, then let go, only 3 of 3 minute rounds, they are considerable differences. And I have noticed the differences between Muay Thai fighters fighting in a K-1 rule based fight.
And TKD is probably more similar to Karate than Muay Thai.

Alrighty, so you find it hard to beleive that a Muay Thai guy would get knocked out right away in TKD tournys? So If you're good at Muay Thai you could go and play basketball really well too? I just don't get the arrogance I'm seeing.... They are completely different, the way Olympic TKD moves and evades is a science to them. They have a limitted set of rules that makes certain things pretty much the same across the board and if you try to deviate from it you lose at their game... hmmm just kind of like Muay Thai!

Of course not, kicking and shooting the hoop are very different things. But a kick to the head is a kick to the head.
I agree with you in part, definitely, a TKD practitioner would most likely win in his own ruleset.
But just because a Muay Thai guy goes into a TKD ruleset match, doesn't suddenly mean that TKD style kicks become ten fold more dangerous, and certainly doesn't mean that the Muay Thai guy becomes an easy target for a KO (I mean cmon kickboxers take kicks bare to the head).
A kickboxer needs to expect these kind of attacks (moves from TKD tournaments) in the ring.
Either the Muay Thai fighters were terrible, or having a very bad day.

I see where your comming from. Its like putting a Kickboxer into a boxing match. Kickboxing obviously incorparates boxing, but a boxer would obviously be more proficient in boxing than a kickboxer. Therefore a boxer would beat a kickboxer in his own ruleset.
But the problem I had was when you said Muay Thai guys were KO'd "right away". I mean Muay Thai guys are used to taking kicks (even knees) to the body. There used to taking punches, elbows, and kicks, bare to the head. And then your saying these same fighters go into a match where there are no knees, no elbows, and no punches to the head, and you are also given headgear for protection, and then they are KO'd "right away".

I figured my word by now would be good enough, since I've always been pretty reasonable but I will do my best to see where I can find proof of the unbelievable claim that Muay Thai guys lost at olympic style TKD tournaments

I can believe you on what you say. But getting knocked out "right away" is shocking, these guys must not be much of a kickboxer, I mean wtf where they doing there in the first place?

[Damian Mavis]

These guys were reportably "champions". Here in Thailand there are are many types of champions but they are all good at what they do regardless.

K1 is more similar to MT than TKD by far, not much else I can say about that.... I listed the similarities for both and MT had many more but I'll add another one. Besides all the similarities MT has with K1 that TKD does not there is also the fact that MT and K1 are full contact ring arts wereas TKD is not, the mentality is completely different for ring arts and that is a huge advantage MT would have over TKD going into that format.

"Either the Muay Thai fighters were terrible, or having a very bad day." They were good and you are making excuses, they lost big time bottom line... you want I should find out it they had diarhea that day or were feeling a little blue? heh

You're having a hard time accepting that Muay Thai guys get knocked out just like everybody else. You over estimate a few things and this is what they are: You overestimate a Thai boxers ability to defend from and see incoming attacks that come from angles he has never experienced. I know I know, you want to beleive that Muay Thai fighters have an uncanny ability to know all attacks and be able to defend from them REGARDLESS of the fact they have never seen them and never trained to defend from them but I regret to tell you this just can't happen. If you don't train to defend from certain angles than you do not react properly to those attacks and are susceptible to them ESPECIALLY if you are not even allowed to defend the way you are used to (shield).

I've knocked out 2 Fighters here in Thailand with TKD moves that are not common tools to the average Muay Thai fighter. One was a bad amateur but the other was an ex Lumpini champ. I knocked out the amatuer during a fight with jumping spinning sidekick and the champ I accidentally knocked out while sparring and I was messing around and threw a roundhouse TKD style from the front leg. It was not a powerful kick and I certainly had no intention of doing any kind of damage but it snapped right on his temple and down he went..... but this taps into the other thing you over estimate: that Thai boxers can't be knocked out easy. They can't, but only because of excellent defence, they do not condition thier head to the point they can take a full contact hit square in the head or face and stay conscious. I kicked my amatuer opponent in the head twice with Thai roundhouse but his reflexes were good enough that he "rolled" with the hit (did not take it square) and blinked it off. If I had hit him with a little more surprise I probably would have dropped him with one of those but at least my opponent had some good reflexes to getting hit (since getting hit is all he did during his fight with me). This doesn't mean his head is tougher! Just that unless you hit a fighter square with surprise they can roll off the most damaging part and not get knocked out, that is the skill muay thai teaches you, roll with the hits and shake em off and keep going! Put in the surprise (getting hit from an angle you don't know about) and you get an easier knockout. The Thai boxers that competed at an olympic style TKD format not only didn't know the game or half the arsenal to look out for but they had no defence for these techniques they weren't familiar with and some got knocked out.

I hate to break it to you but high level competitors in TKD can hit just as hard as Muay Thai fighters. I hold pads for big guys in TKD and Muay Thai and skill is skill, they all hit like trucks but use different kicks to get that power. I'm talking good fighters, not your average Muay Thai or TKD practitioner from North America... most people suck, moreso in the TKD world since the majority of it's members are older moms and dads and little kids.

Anyway, are you kind of grasping some of what I'm saying? You seem like an intelligent guy (unlike some of these posters haha) so surely you can understand that if someone throws a technique at you from an angle that you have never seen it will surprise you. I have several ex pro fighter friends here and when we mess around I always land numerous kicks on their face and head and torso (lightly) simply because I whip out all my tricks from TKD because in straight Muay Thai these guys rape me. I'm just an amatuer right now afterall!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[William Eriepa]

K1 is more similar to MT than TKD by far,

Of course, like he said, TKD is more similar to Karate than it is to Muay Thai.

You overestimate a Thai boxers ability to defend from and see incoming attacks that come from angles he has never experienced.

Maybe I do. But here in New Zealand, our kickboxing rules allow a range of kicks to be used, side kicks, back kicks, etc. I mean, if they're allowed to be used, then it's folly not to train against them.

they do not condition thier head to the point they can take a full contact hit square in the head or face and stay conscious.

Well of course not. But for me compared to my first fight, I have become more attuned to my limits. In my first full contact fight, when I got a bad taste of shin, the feeling was horrible, I wanted to just lay down on the canvas and give up. However in my 5th fight when I got kicked in the head again, you know, the same feeling was there, but I guess it wasn't so much of a shock as it was the first time. I knew I could take it, so I just kept doing my stuff. I became more accustomed to taking hits to the head.

high level competitors in TKD can hit just as hard as Muay Thai fighters. I hold pads for big guys in TKD and Muay Thai and skill is skill, they all hit like trucks but use different kicks to get that power.

Well they sure as hell weren't using snap kicks.

if someone throws a technique at you from an angle that you have never seen it will surprise you

Yes it will.

[Damian Mavis]

Ya I'm beginning to realise the problem, things are much different from country to country.

Saying k1 is similar to Karate therefore karate is similar to TKD so K1 is similar to TKD is correct I guess. Depending on what country you are talking about. The karate in North America is horrible, not all of it but the majority of mainstream schools are all turning sport karate and compete in this flimsy touch point system where you jump in, tap their head and jump out and the match is stopped. Do that 3 times and you just won! Does that sound like K1 to you? haha The other form of major competition for karate over here is musical forms... you know they play the theme from mortal combat and dance around doing a few flips and call it martial arts. Not very K1 ish at all and this is where my confusion stems from, I forget that in other parts of the world they are most likely doing something entirely different, especially with so many different styles of karate... the majority of the ones you find on every corner in Canada though are like I described. So when someone says K1 is more similar to karate than MT it blows my mind.

Personally I still think almost all karate is like I described but if you guys insist that in other countries it is actually similar to K1 who am I to argue with my limitted experience on karate in foreign countires.

AHHHH yes in New Zealand you guys are smart and train a whole range of kicks to learn how to defend from right?! Sounds like the intelligent thing to do! HOWEVER! Over here in Thailand none of the Thais I have sparred or trained with have EVER trained anything outside the mainstream arsenal for MT. They have a bit of an arrogant attitude about it but since all the other fighters are pretty much the same way with the exception of the foreign guy like me that goes in the ring occasionally they have little to worry about since they all have the same attitude. AND THAT IS WHY TKD KICKS ARE SO EFFECTIVE! Over here they are never trained and the fighters never learn to defend from them (I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule) so using them as a surprise is extremely useful. Even in Canada at the academy I trained at they never trained anything out of the ordinary and stuck to teep and round kick. They too were susceptible to the occasional surprise technique I threw at them. But I guess you New Zealanders are really smart! And I applaud that.

By the way you keep mentioning kickboxing... do you do kickboxing or MT?

What you described about getting hit in the head is kind of what I meant, learning how to roll with the hits and not let it shut you down psychologically is one of the best skills MT teaches. I agree.

You don't understand what is meant by the term snap your kick. It means chamber as opposed to not chambering like MT. You still follow through with you shoulder and hip and lay into it with all your weight the only difference is at the beggining the knee was chambered and then let loose like a flail. It does NOT mean I snap my kick in, tap my target and then snap my little dainty foot back. heh You have a misconception about other arts, maybe it's because all the TKD guys in New Zealand hit like pretty little ballerinas? Over here in Canada, ITF TKD is known for it's power breaking. All we work on is power power power. ITF isn't such a good example of TKD on a global scale though since we have only hundreds of thousands of member worldwide wereas WTF (olympic style) has millions of members. But I've even seen WTF guys hit like trucks, there's a guy here in Bangkok (my buddy) that for his size hits way harder than anyone I've ever met. I keep trying to get him to do Muay Thai but like most martial artists he arrogantly thinks everything else sucks.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[William Eriepa]

Saying k1 is similar to Karate therefore karate is similar to TKD so K1 is similar to TKD is correct I guess.

Heh. Nah, nah. All I was saying was that I agreed with this statement:

K-1 is not a MT format. If anything it is designed to give Karatekas a chance against MT guys. ANd TKD if anything is more like karate rather than MT.

I don't think TKD is as similar to K1 like Muay Thai is.

So when someone says K1 is more similar to karate than MT it blows my mind.

Hell no . Muay Thai is closer to K1 than Karate will ever be. But K1 was created by a Karateka, and he probably did design it to give fighters like him a chance against Muay Thai fighters.

But I guess you New Zealanders are really smart! And I applaud that.

Patronizing me?

By the way you keep mentioning kickboxing... do you do kickboxing or MT?

Kickboxing of course. I could never settle for those sissy Muay Thai punches (hah). I did 3 and a half years of kyokushin. My trainer comes from a TKD and Judo background and he was taught how to Kickbox by a Kyokushinkai turned Kickboxer. My trainer was New Zealand's lightweight and middleweight champ back in the 80's.

What you described about getting hit in the head is kind of what I meant, learning how to roll with the hits and not let it shut you down psychologically is one of the best skills MT teaches. I agree.

That too. But I was talking about actually still taking a full hit and not crying like a baby. Your just more aware of what it's like to take a good hit, getting used to the feeling that comes with it, and how much you can actually take before throwing it in.

You don't understand what is meant by the term snap your kick.

As far as i'm aware a snap kick is just thrown from the knee without rolling the hips. That is what was shown to me in Karate for a large amount of kicks any way.

I keep trying to get him to do Muay Thai but like most martial artists he arrogantly thinks everything else sucks.

Then tell him to enter a kickboxing match to see how well his skill fair in the ring. It may take a loss for him to decide to change.

[Damian Mavis]

No I wasn't patronizing you, I'm serious. But I said it when I was under the impression you were in Muay Thai. No offence but most kickboxing clubs DO learn all kinds of kicks from various angles of attack that most MT academys NEVER touch on so when you tell me you do train them I kind of expect that from kickboxing wereas if you were in Muay Thai and training those other kicks I would have been impressed. I'm surprised you didn't know that about MT though, they are pretty set in their ways and as a result leave themselves vulnerable to many techniques you or I could throw at them.

"That too. But I was talking about actually still taking a full hit and not crying like a baby. Your just more aware of what it's like to take a good hit, getting used to the feeling that comes with it, and how much you can actually take before throwing it in." Ya thats what I'm saying but I guess I'm not doing a good job of describing it heh. To me it is the single most important aspect of learning any martial art. If you get hit hard on the street but have the experience not to let it slow you down in a life and death situation then you have a better chance of surviving than the guy who temporarily shuts down due to shock because he's never been hit like that before. Unfortunately so many martial arts never teach that, heck some martial arts have absolutely no contact training whatsoever... god training with those guys is a nightmare...they spend the whole training session making sure you are not going to hurt them. bleh

"As far as i'm aware a snap kick is just thrown from the knee without rolling the hips. That is what was shown to me in Karate for a large amount of kicks any way." Wow that is definately not how we do our kicks in ITF TKD, except perhaps a lead leg strike which is equivalent to a jab punch (fast but weaker than your power leg coming from behind). It is drilled into us to turn our hip and shoulder into the kick as we release the chambered leg, every ounce of your body should be sent into the kick for maximum power. Coming from kicboxing though I'm shocked you don't realise something... TKD and kickboxing kicks are identical.... you should know EXACTLY what I'm talking about for kicks since we do the same ones heh. Unless you are doing a bit of a hybrid that teaches the MT roundkick and totally eliminates the chambered leg roundkick. Don't you also do turning back kicks, spinning kicks, hammer kicks and the occasional sidekick? That is what western kickboxing looks like all over North America, maybe it differs in New Zealand. We have the ex world champion of kickboxing in my city I just left (Ottawa Canada). Jean Yves Theriault. Know who I'm talking about? Anyway I've trained with the guy and his moves are just like TKD, unlike the major differences in MT.

Like most martial artists, ego and arrogance will never allow my buddy to try anything else. I see this alot in many martial artists.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[KopyKat]

Sissy Muay Thai punches? I thought they taught with power in mind for the punching as well as the kicking in Muay thai???
Damien can you clear this up for me?

[William Eriepa]

Heh, I always thought the snap kick was done so that if you missed you wouldn't be way off balance. I was always thought that on impact with a snap kick your leg automatically recoils back down to position, similar to the way it comes up.

We do and are thought more of a Muay Thai roundhouse to use on the outside, but getting closer to the inside I hold the leg in until it's close enough to fire out. We are taught both, but our trainer isn't too fussy on what we use as long as we use it well.
We don't do hammer kicks though

[William Eriepa]

Well the Muay Thai guy I fought only threw his punches from the shoulder, he didn't put his body into them like a boxer or a kickboxer does. When ever he punched it was more like he was just using them to line up his kicks.

Heh, you can even see Remy doing this. All he does is chuck them from his shoulder.