Terrible Technique

[KopyKat]

Well the Muay Thai guy I fought only threw his punches from the shoulder, he didn't put his body into them like a boxer or a kickboxer does. When ever he punched it was more like he was just using them to line up his kicks.

Heh, you can even see Remy doing this. All he does is chuck them from his shoulder.

Hmm i see, i guess its personal preference.

[William Eriepa]

Nah it's how Muay Thai goes. They play defensively. Comming forth with weighty power punches could end you on the hard end of some kicks or knees.
They perfer to always keep their weight on the back foot. So when they punch, there's never much power in it.

[Damian Mavis]

Copykat,

Punches: Muay Thai officially boxes like William describes BUT most MT academys in North America teach a hybrid boxing/MT. At the one I trained at for 2 and a half years in Canada we spent exactly half the class doing boxing drills (western boxing) and then the other half doing MT. Even in Thailand some camps are adopting this philosophy since many Europeans have been coming here and winning with heavy punches alone. When the Thais see something that works repeatedly they make it their own. I think down the road we will see even more camps teaching western boxing as part of its regimen.

William, ya the way you describe snapping kicks is exactly how the fast but weaker lead leg kicks are done. Anything from the rear leg is supposed to penetrate. Keep in mind that I come from ITF TKD so some WTF schools (olympic style) might have a different philosophy but my buddy here in Bangkok that runs a WTF school kicks like a mule, he is a credit to WTF.

Hey he even trains with Dennis Alexio when he comes to town, heard of him? He's a big (as in he's a big man heh) kickboxing champion.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[KopyKat]

Copykat,

Punches: Muay Thai officially boxes like William describes BUT most MT academys in North America teach a hybrid boxing/MT. At the one I trained at for 2 and a half years in Canada we spent exactly half the class doing boxing drills (western boxing) and then the other half doing MT. Even in Thailand some camps are adopting this philosophy since many Europeans have been coming here and winning with heavy punches alone. When the Thais see something that works repeatedly they make it their own. I think down the road we will see even more camps teaching western boxing as part of its regimen.

William, ya the way you describe snapping kicks is exactly how the fast but weaker lead leg kicks are done. Anything from the rear leg is supposed to penetrate. Keep in mind that I come from ITF TKD so some WTF schools (olympic style) might have a different philosophy but my buddy here in Bangkok that runs a WTF school kicks like a mule, he is a credit to WTF.

Hey he even trains with Dennis Alexio when he comes to town, heard of him? He's a big (as in he's a big man heh) kickboxing champion.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Yeah thats what i taught, the place i am planning to join here is like you described, sorta mt kicks and more western boxing punching. My assistant manager at work shows me stuff here and there and he was saying to punch with the body as well. I guess its good to know both

[Nick1_S]

So, backtracking a little...

Damian, you were saying about the Thai's who got beat at the TKD game. I can certainly see how they could lose on points as its a different game altogether. Am I right in saying they were not allowed to sheild? (I assume this is a TKD ruling, I have no experience of TKD at all). So does that mean they could not use a gaurd or shin block, etc? If they could not then I can certainly understand why they got beat.

If they could gaurd then its a little dissapointing to see these guys getting knocked out. After all, we all like to think that Thai boxing is the 'hardest ring sport on earth'. But then again, as it has been discussed here, the Thai's game is Thai boxing. Sure they are powerful and tough guys, but they just are'nt used to unconventional attacks. Fighting does not get much more unconventional to a Thai when fighting a TKDer, one would assume (apart from grappling). You would think that under more open, stand up rules, that the Thai's would win (all kicks, legs etc, knees, elbows) But then this ruling makes it closer to the Thai's game in the first place.

I would agree of the Thai's arrogance to any kick that is not a Thai roundhouse or teep. When I was in Thailand, one guy from Sweden was doing these jumping reverse kicks on the bag. Ok, they did look like they were out of a hollywood movie! The Thai's were pointing and laughing and doing impressions of sweeps as the guy did them. Was funny at the time. But I suppose in essence, MT is MT and TKD is TKD. They both have their own origins, philosophies and hence rules. Why should one change just b/c another art has an offense that could catch them out. If we all wanted to beat each other then I geuss every martial artist should be doing MMA! By incorporating a whole load of other kicks into MT, then would it still be MT?

It seems that each art is fluid, as is most things in life. Change is innevitable due to external reasons. There is no reason to assume MT today will be the same as MT in twenty years time, as it certainly was not twenty years ago.
You do see the Thais tightening up their gaurds from the classic Thai gaurd of old. Thats due to western boxing I geuss. Also, with more Europeans knocking them out with the hands, they may adapt also. I have seen loads of fights with a Westener vs a Thai. The Thai having loads of class and looking relaxed. Landing loads of solid blows but the westener has the upper hand with the boxing. Ends up backing up the Thai and knocking his head around like a speed ball. The Thais just tend to stand there with their chin down, hands outstretched hoping they wont get knocked down. This works for a bit before they go down.

I think on the boxing side, the Thais will improve due to the amount of foreign fighters begining to beat them. But dont know about the kicks though. Not many foreigners doing these spinning kicks so they dont need worry about that as Damian says. (at the present that is) Perhaps if enough ppl notice this and employ a few unconventional techniques the Thais will be forced to adapt to this too. I must say they are resistant to change - MT is MT and it should be done like coz it works and nothing else does. But its this belief in their system that gives them the edge. There is one thing a Thai boxer will never need to add and thats heart. The guys have bags of it.

It does seem a little like, we outbox them so they adapt, then maybe we can catch them out with some unconventional kicks so they will adapt. Looks like they are one step behind. But really its due to their open rule set that allows this external pressure. And they will adapt, if there is enough pressure (enough ppl getting knocked out by untypical MT techniques). I think Thai's, and all fighters really are going to get knocked out by something they are not used to once in a while. But for MT to adopt it into the arsenal they would need to be getting knocked out a lot. So the technique has to be consistently good.

So, Damian, my question would be - can a spin/TKD kick be consistent, in terms of landing - as much as a MT roundhouse? Do you think we will see more foreigners with tricks like yours knocking out the Thais as we are begining too with the boxing?

[Damian Mavis]

Heya Nick1, no they were not allowed to shield, that is a big no no in TKD.

The kick that I find to be consistent is the spinning sidekick (or backkick), that kick goes directly straight into the ribs where the whole in the guard is. Fighters close that guard for teep but are taken by surprise when you send a straight strike in a way they have never seen or at least trained. Timing, speed and accuracy are obviously very important here heh.... timing most of all, you need to know when to send in that kick or to set it up good. Out of all my "tkd" kicks this one is the most consistent, I've landed it 80% of the time during sparring or fighting against tradtitional Muay Thai fighters. I treat all unorthodox kicks as rare surprises I use sparingly so that 80% is by using it occasioanally. If I use them alot my opponent will adapt right there in the ring with me. There are other kicks but the one I mentioned has the highest success rate and the best power so can acheive a body knock out easier and help me win.

I don't know about more foreigners coming here doing what I'm doing.... the universal truth about MOST martial artists is they are arrogant and closed minded. (hey man I've met tons and only a few can get outside their ego) So many really good TKD or karate guys would never put on some thai shorts and go to thailand and train a new art. I've seen a handful, some good some not, not enough to create a wave of changes across the world! haha

I think if someone were to make it to TV here in Thailand and win over and over in the big rings using unorthodox kicks then yes there would be some changes but until that time most people would never have heard about some shmuck in a small part of Thailand winning a few fights.

People like my friend Dave who fought on TV and kept winning with powerful punches make change happen heh. We need a unorthodox kicker to do the same!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Maxetai]

I would like to send compliments to all you guys on this thread for the excellent and very informative input that you are giving to the rest of us! It would be great if many more threads are on this level.

Almost forgot: HAPPY NEW YEAR GUYS AND GIRLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damian Mavis: Any New Year festivities in Thailand or do the Thais celebrate New Year along with the Chinese?

[bvermillion]

Damian I know you come from a differen't federation but in the style of tkd I train I have never heard anything against shielding and have never been called on it. I am probably one of the only guys in my school to do it and they hate it when they connect with my shin.

[Damian Mavis]

Bvermillion, I come from ITF but the tournaments the Muay Thai guys went to is WTF, what federation are you from?

Maxetai, ya I'm going to party tonight.. no idea what to expect, I'm going out with friends that have lived here for 8 years so they know what to do! It's the year 2560 (25XX, I forget exactly) in Thailand though haha.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[eXcessiveForce]

ATA does not have a rule against shielding. But most people don't or won't do it. That is how I have won many matches by letting them try to kick the hell out of my shins until they didn't want to kick anymore.

[Damian Mavis]

Is ATA Olympic style? Maybe here in Thailand they were extra picky since they know exactly where shileding comes from being the home of Muay Thai.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[S.Anucha]

I think on the boxing side, the Thais will improve due to the amount of foreign fighters begining to beat them. But dont know about the kicks though. Not many foreigners doing these spinning kicks so they dont need worry about that as Damian says. (at the present that is) Perhaps if enough ppl notice this and employ a few unconventional techniques the Thais will be forced to adapt to this too. I must say they are resistant to change - MT is MT and it should be done like coz it works and nothing else does. But its this belief in their system that gives them the edge. There is one thing a Thai boxer will never need to add and thats heart. The guys have bags of it

Hi, I just arrived in Bangkok 2 days ago (Damien I am heading to Chiang mai tomorrow) I was training in a camp in Bangkok called Sor Vorapin. Nick1_S, You speak about how bad the Thais ar eat Boxing, I totally disagree. Some Thais are tremendous boxers, very smart and skilled with their fists. Its true that they prefer not to fight leading with the fists.... does this mean they are bad? no. Reasons why the Thais are beginning to be beaten by foreign fighters is Muay Thai, these guys are training in Thaiboxing and using that to defeat Thaiboxing. I am trying not to be biased. How long have you personally been studying Thai fighting? are you at beginning stages? have you fought? I am asking these question not meaning to discredit you but to understand where yopur assumptions are coming from.

That camp I mentioned, do a google search, look at the Boxing titles their fighters have won, not Thaiboxing but boxing.

Thaiboxers are not arrogant towards other kicks, the truth is, they find it funny as usually, and I know from feeling these kicks, the flashy kicks have no power, why do something with no power...? Thai people are always laughing at foreigners, its just normal, they dont mean disrespect they are just laughing.... these guys have every right to laugh if they want because some and most Thai fighter have 100+ fights before they even reach 20 years old, they make even the best of the foreign martial artists look slow.

Again, there are styles of Thai fighting. If you know or not all camps have different ways.

[eXcessiveForce]

Tough Question about the ATA. ATA has both olympic and point sparring. Point sparring is used in tournaments but olympic sparring is taught in some schools.

Shielding is allowed in point sparring and am not aware of any rule against it in the olympic sparring being taught in schools.

[Damian Mavis]

S.Anucha, I wish you had told me you were in town. I could have met up with you at Sor Vorapin and trained with you a bit. I would have loved to show you how weak other kicks outside MT are! haha By that I mean get you to hold pads for me. You are majorly generalising by saying you've felt those kicks and they have no power... you never felt my kicks or the majority of the worlds kicks so to say they all lack power is a huge stretch don't you think? Ah well, maybe if I get a chance to go to Chang Mai sometime we can meet up.

There's plenty of good boxers in Thailand, there's also plenty of crappy ones. A foreign friend of mine was a big champ here because he dominated with boxing and knocked everyone out, his opponents (high level ones too) obviously couldn't out box him.

What are you doing for New Years?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[William Eriepa]

You speak about how bad the Thais ar eat Boxing, I totally disagree. Some Thais are tremendous boxers, very smart and skilled with their fists. Its true that they prefer not to fight leading with the fists.... does this mean they are bad?

I don't think he means Thais themselves, but Muay Thai. You take Muay Thai don't you? Then you should know that pure Muay Thai has weak hands, throwing punches only from the shoulder, and putting as little weight as possible on the lead leg. If they can box well it's not because of Muay Thai but because of boxing itself.

they make even the best of the foreign martial artists look slow.

Just wanted to point out that Remy Bonjasky is probably the first pure Muay Thai fighter to take out the K-1 title.