Thai Kick defense

[george stando]

Whats different in thailand in the training is that you are not spoon fed combinations or anything, you are learning from one to two to three, stringing things together slowly. You are building the blocks with time. Slowly and surely.

I was doing kicks on the pads with my trainer here in bangkok yesterday and I was doing good but now he simply leans out every once and awhile and evades me cleanly and wants me to adjust immediately. His timing is impeccible and now he is teaching me to adjust to that, he keeps introducing things and increasing skill.

This is one of the keys to muay thai here--- in the west its lost to mechanical combinations and over written approaches. This is just my own experience and from my own training.

[Ghost]

This is why I love watching true masters of the art fight, like Samart, Kaensak, Sumruk, Buakaw, and Yodsonklai..... The way they fight, they *NEVER* seem out of position! So much of what they do seems almost choreographed...

More specifically, they seem to be masters of RANGE! Often when we fight, or watch others fights, we notice the missed opportunities. Maybe we simply missed the opportunity, or perhaps we threw the inappropriate strike and miss.

The true masters of the art never seem to make those same mistakes. They always seem to strike with the appropriate weapon for the given circumstance....

yeah i agree completely, its having that feel for whatever the position is, to just know whats right at that given time, and that takes a lot of experience.

[Khun Kao]

Real fights are so dynamic that a foot being in one area or another changes the counter or defense you are likely to use.

This is why I love watching true masters of the art fight, like Samart, Kaensak, Sumruk, Buakaw, and Yodsonklai..... The way they fight, they *NEVER* seem out of position! So much of what they do seems almost choreographed...

More specifically, they seem to be masters of RANGE! Often when we fight, or watch others fights, we notice the missed opportunities. Maybe we simply missed the opportunity, or perhaps we threw the inappropriate strike and miss.

The true masters of the art never seem to make those same mistakes. They always seem to strike with the appropriate weapon for the given circumstance....

[Ghost]

You're probably right. The three coaches from this era that I have trained with are all here in the USA and had been for years before I started training with them. It doesn't surprise me in the least that this is an American adaptation. Also, each of the three had a slightly different methodology when teaching these "counts".

Speaking of combinations and/or counts.... I was training with Kaensak earlier this year, and someone asked him what his favorite combination was. Kaensak just kind of looked at the guy blankly for a minute and then was like, "I don't have one. I just use what works at that time."

It gives you a better appreciation of the more modern training methodology. When you begin training, you need to be "spoon-fed" combinations so that you can learn all the varying ways techniques can be strung together. But as you get into your advanced stages of training (and fighting) your game should evolve so that you can simply react to what your circumstances are and find the openings.

yeah thats quite right, balance and body position at any given time will dictate the correct response.
Every situation is slightly different. its not rigid in movement like chess is.
but i think the older way is to teach it more like chess moves where you can more literally say, what is your favorite counter.
Real fights are so dynamic that a foot being in one area or another changes the counter or defense you are likely to use.

[Khun Kao]

Khun Kao
What are some of the modern training methods you refer to?

Basically, you work with shorter combinations. Rather than train to throw combinations of 6, 8, 12, or 16 strikes, you instead focus on 3 - 4 techniques.

When using Thai pads, there are 2 prevalent methods....

1. Pad Holder calls the shots. The pad holder will either tell you or signal you what they want you to throw. Again, the focus is usually on 2-4 techniques.

2. The Pad Holder reacts to you. A good pad holder will simply allow you to "spar" with him. You do what you want and the pad holder will get the pads in place to avoid taking the hit.

In both of these scenarios, the pad holder does not simply stand there playing the role of a 2-legged heavy bag. The pad holder stays in a Muay Thai stance and moves around. The pad holder also will fight back, throwing well timed strikes to force you to move around, defend, and counter strike.

[Khun Kao]

I dont agree that all the thai coaches from the 50s and 60s teach with combination counts.

You're probably right. The three coaches from this era that I have trained with are all here in the USA and had been for years before I started training with them. It doesn't surprise me in the least that this is an American adaptation. Also, each of the three had a slightly different methodology when teaching these "counts".

Speaking of combinations and/or counts.... I was training with Kaensak earlier this year, and someone asked him what his favorite combination was. Kaensak just kind of looked at the guy blankly for a minute and then was like, "I don't have one. I just use what works at that time."

It gives you a better appreciation of the more modern training methodology. When you begin training, you need to be "spoon-fed" combinations so that you can learn all the varying ways techniques can be strung together. But as you get into your advanced stages of training (and fighting) your game should evolve so that you can simply react to what your circumstances are and find the openings.

[Ghost]

oh i wrote a post like that on page 2 on this thread i think, yeah its a good counter when you can do it. and yes i agree we are too linear on defense at times still.

best counter often depends on your position relative to the other person and your balance. everything has its place.

[Marksmarkou]

dont agree, moving away makes countering harder as you have increased range and generally leads to nothing lost, nothing gained.
the shin block is, imo, the best defense as it allows a quick counter without having to close the gap, you also have far more options open to you with a shin block than letting their kick go past you.

REmember, we arent just trying to hit and not get hit, we are trying to win. and sometimes that means making some sacrifices.

Fact is, shin block allows the widest variety of counters and on that merit it is the most effective defense as it has the most effect offensive counters.

all imo of course.

While I agree with you that moving away leaves you in a nothing lost nothing gained situation it was not what i was reffering to (my apologies, I should have explained myself better) Im reffering to moving out of the line of attack whilst still leaving yourself in range to counter. I guest wrote an article for a martial arts blog here on the subject which might explain myself better. Its a strategy used in Enshin/Ashihara karate and Wado. I have found it very useful during my Thai training as I have found most Thai fighters to attack only in a straight line.

[Ghost]

I would always say that the best defence to thhe kick is to move away from it. Also not moving backwards but sidestepping inwards so youre still in range to counter. If the kick is to fast and you dont have time, it has to be the shin block using the 1-2 inch area just below the knee.

dont agree, moving away makes countering harder as you have increased range and generally leads to nothing lost, nothing gained.
the shin block is, imo, the best defense as it allows a quick counter without having to close the gap, you also have far more options open to you with a shin block than letting their kick go past you.

REmember, we arent just trying to hit and not get hit, we are trying to win. and sometimes that means making some sacrifices.

Fact is, shin block allows the widest variety of counters and on that merit it is the most effective defense as it has the most effect offensive counters.

all imo of course.

[Marksmarkou]

I would always say that the best defence to thhe kick is to move away from it. Also not moving backwards but sidestepping inwards so youre still in range to counter. If the kick is to fast and you dont have time, it has to be the shin block using the 1-2 inch area just below the knee.

[fire cobra]

I dont agree that all the thai coaches from the 50s and 60s teach with combination counts. I met and trained with a few who fought during those times and later taught in thailand and never learned anything close to those type of counts and/or approaches. I mean it could be something these coaches during those time periods who relocated to the west and other countries modified them that way in response to those elements around them or the way others did it but not so in thailand. Its healthy conjecture at best. Its more modeled on the karate type of approach over a thai approach even in the old style is more fluid than that.

I agree George,

When i first met my teacher i asked him what his combinations where he said..punch,kick,knee,and elbow!,

I also asked him what his warm up was he said Muay Thai,and his cool down..Muay Thai lol.

[george stando]

I dont agree that all the thai coaches from the 50s and 60s teach with combination counts. I met and trained with a few who fought during those times and later taught in thailand and never learned anything close to those type of counts and/or approaches. I mean it could be something these coaches during those time periods who relocated to the west and other countries modified them that way in response to those elements around them or the way others did it but not so in thailand. Its healthy conjecture at best. Its more modeled on the karate type of approach over a thai approach even in the old style is more fluid than that.

[JAB]

Khun Kao
What are some of the modern training methods you refer to?

[fire cobra]

Nice posts lads,looks like we are all in agreement that learning and growth is the way to go,even if we are proved wrong and have to eat some humble pie,all fine by me.

[Khun Kao]

I agree with both ghost and fire cobra's statements.

We all have to have a thick skin, be willing to be examined under a microscope, and accept criticism. I have trained under a number of Thai coaches, and to be honest I have noticed that the older Thai's who fought in the 50's & 60's all seem to like teaching 6, 8, 12, 16-count combinations. It's a dated teaching system. It still serves its purpose but I don't think its anywhere near as efficient or practical compared to more contemporary training methods. Heck, I admittedly still teach them from time-to-time.

I will also let it be known that I have never trained under Ajarn Chai. I have tons of respect for the man because without him, most of us would not have ever had the opportunity to even KNOW about Muay Thai in the first place if not for his lifetime of work. He did attend one of my title fights in person, though, so I got to meet him and shake his hand!