Which grappling art should I do?

[USArmyBJJ]

You might want to not stick your nose in things you have no clue about.

You're right. Your medical issues are your's alone. But seriously....get that checked out.

[USArmyBJJ]

You don't know your right. And instead of adding as much to your tool box to make sure you know you would just assume that it's impossible.

If you look at my profile, you'll notice that I train in boxing and Muay Thai (and Tae Kwon Do when I was a kid). You'll also notice that, on several occasions now, I've noted that I don't really study martial arts for self-defense, so have no need to study RBSD to "add to my toolbox." The original poster also said that he was looking to add grappling to his toolbox. What are you talking about exactly?

And I love the RBSD cop out that everyone who practices it is paranoid. if I were as paranoid as you people seem to think all RBSD people are I'd never leave the house. Which means I'd be able to post as much as you non-RBSD people do.

You don't think there's any paranoia at all in assuming that all, or even most, fights on the street end up with multiple people and weapons, etc? Come on, that's a bit paranoid. Either way, the paranoia I was mostly referring to is this weird paranoia that everyone who expresses any skepticism about RBSD is attacking you personally. It's a bit strange. But it does make the discussion more fun to participate in.

And EVERY and I mean EVERY martial art teaches you unarmed combat BEFORE armed. because if you can't use the weapons nature gave you WTF makes you think you can use extra crap added to those.

This reasoning is pretty bad....We have weapons because they make it easier to hurt or kill another. Are you arguing that you have to learn how to punch before you can learn how to shoot? As someone who has expressed a strong preference for military combatives, do you honestly think that soldiers are taught hand-to-hand before they're taught on their rifles? (I can tell you from first hand experience that that is incorrect) I might be misunderstanding what you're trying to say.

obviously the first word in your posts shows how much you ignore what was said to you. I specifically said RUNNING there Forest Gump was not an option yet your first word is Running.

Um, actually. The first sentence in your post was, "If you are saying here that both are ineffective that what is an effective defense," and I responded by saying, "Running." You asked a general question, and I gave you a general answer. It was only later in your post that you outlined some scenarios where, conveniently enough, running was not an option. Would you agree, or disagree, that running is a great option when faced by five knife-wielding attackers? Or, are you like a crazy Rambo guy that says, "I ain't got time to bleed," and charges full speed ahead?

If you can't keep up with the conversation how can you eve pretend it is a debate.

You might want to read your own posts before you post again so that you aren't just going off of your memory of what you said. That way, you won't get confused.

[TTEscrima]

I'm sorry to see that you would give up on yourself so quickly and dismiss the fact that protecting yourself is even possible. it shows lack of heart, which would explain why you prefer an fighting environment with rules.

Well said my friend. See my sigline.

Some people prefer play fighting, and some go so far as to mistake it for the real thing, or even worse, self defense.

[TTEscrima]

. No offense TTeskrima but have you ever been at gun or knife point?

More times than I can count, I'm a retired Navy Master at Arms, I've dealt with groups of drunk civilians fighting drunk soldiers, drunk soldiers fighting college kids, drunk soldiers fighting each other, hell I've been a drunken sailor fighting a group of Marines, sailors with knives who were stabbing other sailors shipboard when I arrived and they turned on me and armed people fighting with me from a half dozen countries over a 20 year span. In none of those cases would BJJ or wrestling have done anything but gotten me killed.

[kingoftheforest]

If you're in that situation then sorry but you're finished. Realistically there's no training to handle that. More effective policing would be a better bet. Actually I have rarely seen people attack like that except during a riot in Douala once and when I was kicked unconscious once stupidly trying to stop my motorcycle being stolen by a gang of street punks.

I'm sorry to see that you would give up on yourself so quickly and dismiss the fact that protecting yourself is even possible. it shows lack of heart, which would explain why you prefer an fighting environment with rules.

But in the real world there are no rules. Hope is just another word for desperation. Being prepared and considering that things like this are possible is not paranoia (I'm not saying that this is what you meant BTW) it's called being realistic and prepared.

[kingoftheforest]

You might want to get that checked out. There's no WAY that's healthy!

You might want to not stick your nose in things you have no clue about.

[kingoftheforest]

Running. Maybe carrying a weapon. I don't know.



I don't know. I imagine I'd have a better chance than if I was unarmed. If you don't think you could get out of this situation when you have a weapon, what on Earth makes you think that you could survive without a weapon??



Agreed.




I would probably get my butt kicked is what I would do.



What have I ignored that you feel needs to be addressed? I've treated you with respect. There seems to be a common set of feelings among the RBSD crowd on this site - paranoia, anger, and a sense of persecution. It's weird, but at least it makes the conversation more interesting.

You don't know your right. And instead of adding as much to your tool box to make sure you know you would just assume that it's impossible.

And I love the RBSD cop out that everyone who practices it is paranoid. if I were as paranoid as you people seem to think all RBSD people are I'd never leave the house. Which means I'd be able to post as much as you non-RBSD people do.


And EVERY and I mean EVERY martial art teaches you unarmed combat BEFORE armed. because if you can't use the weapons nature gave you WTF makes you think you can use extra crap added to those.

obviously the first word in your posts shows how much you ignore what was said to you. I specifically said RUNNING there Forest Gump was not an option yet your first word is Running.

If you can't keep up with the conversation how can you eve pretend it is a debate.

[Junka]

Yeah, well there's probably not a complete story for a start. journalists need to sell papers. It could be that he was willing to stab another guy but not willing to react violently to an old lady he didn't have a problem with. In any event, I actually do like to see community action but would not ever promote going one on one with a armed aggressor
when he was already running away.

For your information I've stood between arguing parties who had reached the stage of holding their firearms (AK47's) more than once. I work in a variety of African crap holes and have seen my fair share. It's because I've actually been there that I'm a realist. No offense TTeskrima but have you ever been at gun or knife point?

[TTEscrima]

Just so no-one misinterprets my previous post, I don't dislike RBSD, I even did Krav Maga and liked it. It's just that I found some of it seemed to suggest to the students that knife and gun defenses, or multiple opponent defenses could be more than a last minute, desperate solution to an impossible problem, to me they're simply not and, I work around armed thugs for a day job.

I also feel that to ignore grappling entirely is misguided. You could be taken to the ground or clinched due a number of factors beyond your control. Even if you only learn enough to disengage and stand up, it still requires practice with a non compliant opponent.

Wow, another vote from the "I prefer bjj because..." crowd for might as well let the attacker have his way for you because self defense against an armed opponent is impossible.

Amazing that little old ladies have more confidence in their abilities than many of the MMA types who wander into this section and offer their wisdom.

I'm beginning to wonder if training in a sport that emphasizes this crap doesn't do more harm than good simply because it convinces them they're dead if they try to defend themselves. Good thing this little old lady wasn't pre-programmed by sport arts to believe she was gonna die if she faced a knife empty handed.

Five-foot female fitness fanatic pins knife-wielding attacker to a wall

By Jaya Narain

When she saw a knifeman repeatedly stab a man in the face and neck before leaving him for dead in the street, Georgina Harmer was appalled.

But without a thought for her own safety, the feisty 50-year-old gave chase and grabbed hold of the thug.

Then she got him in a headlock, pinned him against a wall and valiantly held on for 10 long minutes until police arrived and arrested him.

Yesterday she was praised for her bravery as knifeman Wesley Ogden, 28, was jailed for the horrific attack.

The incident happened last August when Miss Harmer, a customer service advisor for O2, was enjoying a night out with friends Alan Keown, 48, and his girlfriend Pamela Nabb, 40.

The group went outside The Clarence pub in Bury, Greater Manchester for a cigarette where they were confronted by Ogden who had been earlier thrown out of the pub causing trouble.

He made a sexual remark towards Miss Nabb, prompting a verbal dispute with her boyfriend that turned into a scuffle.

Ogden then produced a knife and started to repeatedly stab Mr Keown in the face and body in a frenzied assault.

As 6ft 2in Ogden ran off down the road, Miss Harmer - who is just 5ft 4in tall and weighs eight stone - gave chase and tackled him outside a bank before pinning him to the wall in a headlock.

CCTV pictures from cameras located at the HSBC bank dramatically capture the bravery of her citizen's arrest.

As she desperately clung on to Ogden, a doorman from a nearby pub came over and helped her restrain him until police arrived.

Last night she said: 'I think I was just running on adrenaline. It didn't take me long to catch him. I pinned him against the wall, put him in a headlock.

It's fair to say I applied pressure between his groin - that's the polite way of putting it - and restrained him and he was wincing in agony.

'He was denying that it was him that had done it, but I was saying "It's you". I struggled with him - but I wouldn't let go of him until I knew the police had him.'

Miss Harmer, a former pub landlady from Radcliffe, said: 'There wasn't a lot going through my mind really, I just didn't want him to get away - I wanted to go back and make sure Alan was alright. It was really serious, I think a few people thought it would be fatal - there was so much blood.

'I do keep myself fit, I run an under-18s rounders team and I go power walking twice a week. I used to weight-lifting a long time ago, but I'm too old for that now. I'm very active although I don't have a regime as such - but I think it did help.'

Mr Keown was rushed to hospital where he was treated for four serious wounds to his face and body, but his injuries were not life-threatening and he recovered.

Ogden of Oldham, was convicted of wounding with intent to cause grevious bodily harm and assault following a trial at Bolton Crown Court and was told he must serve at least three-and-a-half years behind bars.

Detective Inspector Sarah Jackson, of Bury CID, said: 'Ogden is an extremely violent and dangerous man who had the temerity to plead not guilty despite the numerous witnesses who saw this savage assault.

'He belongs behind bars and I am glad that is where he will now be spending his foreseeable future.

'While what the victim's friends did was undoubtedly risky, I would like to praise their bravery. In particular, the woman who put her own safety at risk and chased Ogden through the town centre, detaining a very strong and dangerous man, was incredibly courageous and her selfless actions have helped put a violent man behind bars.'

Miss Harmer, who says a policewoman friend once gave her a few self defence tips, said: 'I'm very pleased with the sentence - I hope this will be a deterrent to people carrying knives and give confidence to witness who have doubts about coming forward. They shouldn't be scared.

'If this guy wasn't taken off the streets he probably would have done it again and it could have been a murder.'

full article with more pics: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...cker-wall.html

[USArmyBJJ]

Well it can't be me cause you're so far up my ass there isn't even room for a fart.

You might want to get that checked out. There's no WAY that's healthy!

[Junka]

If you are saying here that both are ineffective that what is an effective defense.........

So are you saying that if you were attacked by 5 people all at once you could shot or stab all 5 before being swarmed under.

If you're in that situation then sorry but you're finished. Realistically there's no training to handle that. More effective policing would be a better bet. Actually I have rarely seen people attack like that except during a riot in Douala once and when I was kicked unconscious once stupidly trying to stop my motorcycle being stolen by a gang of street punks.

having had close relatives who saw combat in all these wars they never once told of a curriculum of ground fighting.

I have friends in various military units and they pay little more than lip service to hand to hand fighting. They work differently and as teams with tactics based on weapons, their emphasis is different etc...

[USArmyBJJ]

If you are saying here that both are ineffective that what is an effective defense.

Running. Maybe carrying a weapon. I don't know.

So are you saying that if you were attacked by 5 people all at once you could shot or stab all 5 before being swarmed under. Mind you attackers don't scream there intentions then attack one at a time like on G.I. Joe.

I don't know. I imagine I'd have a better chance than if I was unarmed. If you don't think you could get out of this situation when you have a weapon, what on Earth makes you think that you could survive without a weapon??

Also as has been pointed out multiple times on this forum, fine motor skills go out the window when the fights on.

Agreed.

If you feel neither unarmed stand up or grappling are effective what would you do if say you were exiting you car and rushed by 5 attackers?

I would probably get my butt kicked is what I would do.

or you can ignore this question like you ignore other parts of people's posts because it isn't convient to your case.

What have I ignored that you feel needs to be addressed? I've treated you with respect. There seems to be a common set of feelings among the RBSD crowd on this site - paranoia, anger, and a sense of persecution. It's weird, but at least it makes the conversation more interesting.

[USArmyBJJ]

When someone assumed what you were saying you got upset.

Actually, if you read back, you'll notice that I never got upset until TTEscrima said I was "stupid," because he was too ignorant to know the difference between "grappling" and ground-fighting.

seems asking for clarification and explaining the meaning that I interred from your words didn't elicit any better of a response from the sarcasm of your LSAT comment.

Sorry, but it felt like teaching an LSAT class (dissecting paragraphs to determine meaning).

Your double speak seems to leave you nice little outs so I'll just assume next time to and save myself the trouble of being polite and asking.

There was no double-speak involved. There was what I said, and what you misinterpreted. I don't need "outs" seeing as how I've said from the very beginning that I consider grappling to be ineffective for fighting multiple opponents. Don't blame me for your lack of understanding - others seemed to get it just fine.

As for your proof that stand up unarmed or otherwise works I'll refer you to WWI, WWI, Korea and Vietnam.

What works in military combat is not necessarily what will work for your average joe off the street. Perhaps you can explain why it does?

Silat Mubai which is the current US "enemies" fighting style is stand up. the American Indians used stand up. Civil War manuals show stand up fighting.

Ok.

All of these wars and conflicts were fought at some point on open battle feilds against multiples sometimes one side or the other outnumbered. Stand up worked then. LEO's are taught stand up against multiples.

Then it should be easy to provide verified proof of this, beyond your word. Keep in mind - I'm not looking for evidence of what someone is taught. I'm looking for verifiable (and falsifiable) evidence that what they are taught actually works. If it is so obvious, then it should be easy to find.

[TTEscrima]

Personally if you want to train BJJ because it's fun kudos to you. but if you post in the Urban Military combatives/Reality based Martial Arts then I'd assume you are asking for effectiveness not necessarily fun.


So if you aren't interested in SD this should go in the MMA forum.

Some people just can't stand it that other people practice something they don't and feel it's necessary to state that they prefer to play sports rather than train SD even if it means leaving the sports section to do so. Ever notice how little posting they do about their training in their own forums though? Makes you wonder if they have spent as much time worrying about their own training as they do telling everyone else what to do.

Hey I enjoy training, and women, getting drunk once on awhile, a good comedian and...hey I just realized, maybe they think Urban Combatives/R.B.S.D. is a dating service.

[Junka]

Personally if you want to train BJJ because it's fun kudos to you. but if you post in the Urban Military combatives/Reality based Martial Arts then I'd assume you are asking for effectiveness not necessarily fun.
So if you aren't interested in SD this should go in the MMA forum.

Point taken.

I guess I was just responding to the thread topic. I do stand by what I advised the OP to do though. To put it into an RBSD context, then the grappling should be complimentary to the RBSD too, not a replacement.

Just so no-one misinterprets my previous post, I don't dislike RBSD, I even did Krav Maga and liked it. It's just that I found some of it seemed to suggest to the students that knife and gun defenses, or multiple opponent defenses could be more than a last minute, desperate solution to an impossible problem, to me they're simply not and, I work around armed thugs for a day job.

I also feel that to ignore grappling entirely is misguided. You could be taken to the ground or clinched due a number of factors beyond your control. Even if you only learn enough to disengage and stand up, it still requires practice with a non compliant opponent.