Which grappling art should I do?

[kingoftheforest]

I didn't dismiss them. I stated that I don't know who they are. Either way, they seem to teach exactly what I said they should teach, "grappling and ground defense." Looks like those "experts" agree with me.

Actually they don't. they don't teach grappling as their main line of defense. They also teach you fight like you train.

So if sport dueling is your thing you're going to fight according to the "rules" and 'codes" of sport dueling. The other guy's input may not follow rules and codes.

You also seem to have the same problem as you're predecessor the habit of selective reading and attempting to put the best spin on your words and attempting to make it seem someone has said something they haven't.


Did you say you were active military? I missed weather you did or not.

[TTEscrima]

When was the last time you sent three guys with knives to jump one of your students in the middle of a dark alley at night in order to test whether they succeed or not?

Actually smartass we do shit like all the time with airsoft guns, rubber knives and escrima sticks.

You've regularly attended over 100 MMA/BJJ schools???? That's pretty amazing.

No, I attended, watched, participated, and asked the students and instructors about the curriculum. I even went to a particular school that taught BJJ/MT but didn't even allow sparring in the MT classes. I do believe XF visited that school and had the same experience.

None.

[TTEscrima]

He does teach grappling and ground fighting defense, multiple attacker defense, weapons and weapons defense, and he advocates going to the ground as little as you possibly can, and getting up as fast as you can.

Actually he has a background in traditional JJJ but he left the school (where he was the assistant instructor) some time ago and teaches pure combatives now, hence his slogan, "You can't tap out on the street". He has multiple seminars and DVDS and not a one is about grappling. He now teaches things from WWII combatives and Tai Chi, and after training with us his go to technique is Boar's Horses hoof punch

[USArmyBJJ]

So when was the last time you practiced edged weapon tactics in your BJJ class? How about weapon retention or shielding techniques?

None - I only go to the sport BJJ classes, not the self-defense ones (they're split at my school). I've said before that I'm not really interested in self-defense, except as it concerns debating online. I like BJJ for the same reason I like debating online - the sport of it.

Show me a MMA school that regularly teaches tactics for dealing with multiple or armed opponents,

I'll look. But I certainly don't know any off-hand. I'll state again what I've said in just about every post, but that you keep ignoring: I don't think BJJ is good for dealing with multiple or armed opponents. I just haven't seen any evidence that TMA or RBSD fare any better. I'm not "bashing" either of those arts. I'm not denying that they could do better. I'm saying that I'm a skeptic - and I haven't seen any evidence.

When was the last time you sent three guys with knives to jump one of your students in the middle of a dark alley at night in order to test whether they succeed or not?

I want to see the video, because I've attended well over a 100 MMA/BJJ schools since 1992 and NEVER seen one that regularly taught these techniques as a part of the schools normal curriculum.

You've regularly attended over 100 MMA/BJJ schools???? That's pretty amazing.

So how many CMA and RBSD schools have you attended to base your opinions on?

None. That's why I haven't bashed them. I've only asked for evidence.

[USArmyBJJ]

Do some research before you just dismiss people. These guys opinions are highly respected in the SD and law enforcement fields.

<snip>

He does teach grappling and ground fighting defense, multiple attacker defense, weapons and weapons defense, and he advocates going to the ground as little as you possibly can, and getting up as fast as you can.

I didn't dismiss them. I stated that I don't know who they are. Either way, they seem to teach exactly what I said they should teach, "grappling and ground defense." Looks like those "experts" agree with me.

[kingoftheforest]

I don't know who those people are that you're talking about. But it's beyond the point.

These people are experts in their feilds. Look them up. they train LEO's and military a like.

I have personally trained with Mercop his nick name is Shrek because he's about as big as that sumbitch.

Do some research before you just dismiss people. These guys opinions are highly respected in the SD and law enforcement fields.

I know for a fact Mercop has "been there done that" and worn the T shirt out extensively.

He does teach grappling and ground fighting defense, multiple attacker defense, weapons and weapons defense, and he advocates going to the ground as little as you possibly can, and getting up as fast as you can.

None of my training with him started off in the blow job position (on your knees) and personally unless you're a hooker I can't see a fight starting from there.

[TTEscrima]

You love to assume whatever everyone else knows or believes. Why don't you try sticking to responding to what people actually say, rather than just making up a straw man for you to attack? It will make you more persuasive.

So when was the last time you practiced edged weapon tactics in your BJJ class? How about weapon retention or shielding techniques? Show me a MMA school that regularly teaches tactics for dealing with multiple or armed opponents, I want to see the video, because I've attended well over a 100 MMA/BJJ schools since 1992 and NEVER seen one that regularly taught these techniques as a part of the schools normal curriculum.

So how many CMA and RBSD schools have you attended to base your opinions on?

[USArmyBJJ]

Yep, no doubt, but we all know damn well that isn't what MMA is about, nor is it what the average forum reader practices in his classes.

You love to assume whatever everyone else knows or believes. Why don't you try sticking to responding to what people actually say, rather than just making up a straw man for you to attack? It will make you more persuasive.

[USArmyBJJ]

Yep I didn't stop to think about what a waste of time it was replying to someone who won't even own up to the things he posts, he always means something else.

Yet, you're still replying to me...When I've been wrong, I've admitted I was wrong. (as was the case when I thought that SF training was the same as MAC, which it clearly is not)

You've been consistently wrong in your interpretation of other people's posts, and yet you still continue to insist that the super-secret meaning of someone's post is whatever you wanted it to be. It shows a lack of maturity that is unbecoming. You completely misunderstood what the word "grappling" means, and yet, you're still going on and on about it.

Did you ever work on getting that dictionary?

Never once have I disagreed with that.

My mistake. (See how easy that is?)

I have had it up to the gills with people dismissing the CMA's usefulness though.

I'm not sure who has dismissed them. Asking for some record evidence of usefulness is not the same as dismissing it.

It never ceases to amaze me how people who have never had any combative training that didn't begin from their knees will so readily dismiss the advanced techniques taught to SF that begin from the standing position.

Many people have pointed out that what is taught to SF people is not necessarily what's best for your average guy on the street. Maybe you could make that jump for us?

Classic, there are shitloads of historical notes on combatives used during human waves assualts and in trench warfare, all of which relied on the techniques known commonly as WWII combatives, but since there were no tv cameras to document it, the mma crowd dismisses it.

Answered above. And yes, video is always better. Maybe a few of us are from Missouri.

And yep, running is best, no one ever denied it except when you're in a position you can't.

We agree on that.

Ask any cop whats more useful when he's trying to deal with multiples, striking or grappling, and every fucking one will say striking. See Mercop's "You can't tap out on the street" shirts/motto for evidence from someone who has been there done that on many occasions. Check Southnarcs material he's another heavy hitter cop and he also advocates combatives over grappling, come to think of it everyone whose job and life depends on it prefers striking and all the sports fans who never defended anything much less their lives want more proof.

I don't know who those people are that you're talking about. But it's beyond the point. Again, no one is arguing that going to the ground is better in a streetfight. That was your mistaken interpretation of the word "grappling."

Also, you still need to consider that you are not always the one who gets to dictate the course of the fight. When a guy has a buddy or two, he might very well get to dictate its course, and that course might be grappling. I think most would rather have some background in grappling in order to at least attempt to survive, get up, and run, than stick with striking-only.

[TTEscrima]

For the sake of argument perhaps "grappling" needs a more precise definition?

For what it's worth I grapple with ideas and words and the best method of making a point and I fail frequently. Efficiency is it's own art.

More specifically "GRAPPLING" in the context of this topic clearly begins when one person gets an attachment or otherwise engages physical contact? We're not THUMB wrestling here but you can certainly grapple over a weapon, grapple standing up or on the deck.

Yep, no doubt, but we all know damn well that isn't what MMA is about, nor is it what the average forum reader practices in his classes.

Show me ONE level 1 military combative technique that is taught standing up much less dealing with a weapon, there isn't one, and 99% of troops never get beyond level 1. Weapons aren't addressed until level 5, of which at last I heard there weren't 3 men in the entire Army who had that qualification.

[TTEscrima]

We pretty much are as far as the utility of going to the ground in a fight with multiple people. TTE misunderstood my post and went on a rampage without properly thinking through his response.

Yep I didn't stop to think about what a waste of time it was replying to someone who won't even own up to the things he posts, he always means something else.

Where we differ is 1) whether grappling training is better than non-grappling training for both avoiding going to the ground and for surviving and getting back up if you're put there,

Never once have I disagreed with that. I have had it up to the gills with people dismissing the CMA's usefulness though.

It never ceases to amaze me how people who have never had any combative training that didn't begin from their knees will so readily dismiss the advanced techniques taught to SF that begin from the standing position.

and 2) whether TMA and/or RBSD can actually demonstrate that it fares any better against multiple opponents (my contention is that no unarmed style really works well against multiple opponents, and the best style is "track and field").

Classic, there are shitloads of historical notes on combatives used during human waves assualts and in trench warfare, all of which relied on the techniques known commonly as WWII combatives, but since there were no tv cameras to document it, the mma crowd dismisses it.

And yep, running is best, no one ever denied it except when you're in a position you can't.

Ask any cop whats more useful when he's trying to deal with multiples, striking or grappling, and every fucking one will say striking. See Mercop's "You can't tap out on the street" shirts/motto for evidence from someone who has been there done that on many occasions. Check Southnarcs material he's another heavy hitter cop and he also advocates combatives over grappling, come to think of it everyone whose job and life depends on it prefers striking and all the sports fans who never defended anything much less their lives want more proof.

[Tant01]

For the sake of argument perhaps "grappling" needs a more precise definition?

For what it's worth I grapple with ideas and words and the best method of making a point and I fail frequently. Efficiency is it's own art.

More specifically "GRAPPLING" in the context of this topic clearly begins when one person gets an attachment or otherwise engages physical contact? We're not THUMB wrestling here but you can certainly grapple over a weapon, grapple standing up or on the deck.

[kingoftheforest]

We pretty much are as far as the utility of going to the ground in a fight with multiple people. TTE misunderstood my post and went on a rampage without properly thinking through his response.

Where we differ is 1) whether grappling training is better than non-grappling training for both avoiding going to the ground and for surviving and getting back up if you're put there, and 2) whether TMA and/or RBSD can actually demonstrate that it fares any better against multiple opponents (my contention is that no unarmed style really works well against multiple opponents, and the best style is "track and field").



LOL - I will say this about the Navy - They have great team-building skills. Every time a hundred guys get on a ship, fifty couples come off...

Well there are TMA that have been used on the battlefield and plenty of those people survived.

If you can post something similar to the effect that grappling/wrestling was used on the battle field I'd be happy to read it. This isn't meant as a "prove it" I've just never seen legitimate info to back up wrestling as a battle field art.

I know Alexander the great was said to have pretty much outlawed wrestling/grappling among his soldiers weather for training or recreation.

He did conquer most of the known world as a military leader.


I'm personally not against training standing grappling or ground fighting, but it depends on what you are using it for and how much of your SD you're basing it on.

[Tant01]

Too funny

We pretty much are as far as the utility of going to the ground in a fight with multiple people. TTE misunderstood my post and went on a rampage without properly thinking through his response.

Where we differ is 1) whether grappling training is better than non-grappling training for both avoiding going to the ground and for surviving and getting back up if you're put there, and 2) whether TMA and/or RBSD can actually demonstrate that it fares any better against multiple opponents (my contention is that no unarmed style really works well against multiple opponents, and the best style is "track and field").



LOL - I will say this about the Navy - They have great team-building skills. Every time a hundred guys get on a ship, fifty couples come off...

LOL
I thought that only happened on submarines?

[kingoftheforest]

I thought the smiley face was enough to show I was joking mostly with that vid. I just think it's a funny video.

Sorry missed that apology and beer extended.

It is funny as hell to see those old guys go at it. At least they're passionate about their politics.