Medival Knight VS Japanese Samauri (sp)

[RYO9]

ok guys i sound so defensive because of my absolute hatred for what arts like karate and TKD have become. not because i want some ego trip. i actually don't think samurai are as great as everyone makes them out to be. and if i had to choose something to imagine myself as is and Escrimador, because they are probably the only ones who could truely give a samurai a run for his money.

as far as the creation of Aikido, unless i can meet the founder himself, i will believe what i have been told. and if you don't like it find a way to prove me wrong.

Mullins

[jubaji]

Mullins,
Since the founder himself is dead and stinking,

Whoa. Go easy on the "stinking" part.

[blend]

ok guys i sound so defensive because of my absolute hatred for what arts like karate and TKD have become. not because i want some ego trip.
Mullins

mmm...what exactly have karate and TKD become that creates such "absolute hatred" in you?

[jubaji]

You're right. He probably got past the stinking stage a while back...

No offense meant, it's something we all go through.

Well he was likely cremated, so that stage was probably circumvented anyway.

[RYO9]

OK mike, i believe you. i really put that up as a test to see if you could prove me wrong. i'm sorry for posting false info. and this has taught me to not trust the internet, namely search engines. thank you for correcting me.

as for what TKD and karate have become. originally, especially with TKD, they were hardcore fighting arts. in the recent past they have become so watered down i can't stand it. they are no longer useful for what they were designed to be used for, which is selfdefense. Karate in particular has become more of a flashy, pussy-like, spin in the air and make it look good art. and i am totally against point-sparring. it isn't good for anything other than proving "i can stop my kick in the air closer to you than you can stop yours closer to me." and this new thing that has emerged from Karate called XMA. what the hell is that? with all that flashy, spinny crap. it just wants to make me kick em mid jump, and send em back a solid 10 feet. now dont get me wrong i still have respect for the true traditionalists, that take pride in the classic forms and dont try to be so flashy. and then there is that thing that's on the discovery channel. combat-ki, or something like that, that's total bs. these guys think that they can withstand such huge and powerful blows, yeah lets put them against a guy from a camp in thailand and see what happens. also they are starting to become McDojo's. you shouldn't be able to get a black belt by paying for it. it is a symbol of commitment to the art, not "hey i've got 200 bucks and want a blackbelt, hook me up." and that's the start of my hatred for TKD and Karate.

Mullins

[Hardball]

I know we've referenced it in other areas of this forum, but you need to look up and read (it's a struggle, but worth the effort) George Silver's "Paradoxes of Defense" and in my opinion more importantly "Brief Instructions on My Paradoxes of Defense." These are written I believe in the 1400's and describe the finer points of weaponscraft.
Mike

Thanks, I'm going to do the research on this piece. You think I can fine it on the internet? How about amazon.com?

[Hardball]

Similarities:
both had a fuedal contract
Both had a code of conduct

Differences:
Religion
Knights were more for the money
style of combat

Training:
Kinghts trained from time they are old enough to use a sword or ride a horse. however there is no art that they used.
Samurai were trained from a young age, about 7, in the arts of Iaido and Kenjitsu. when weapons were banned in Japan (1600-1850 roughly) they developed the art of Aikido.

Terrain is irrelavent considering they both trained/fught on almost any type of terrain.

Time Period:
Kights- 700 AD-1750 AD roughly, they became just iconic symbols after that.
Samurai- sometime aorund 400 AD- 1850 AD when the need for them was no longer there.

Mullins

Thanks, this was very interesting.

[Hardball]

Time Life Books had published a history encyclopedia years and years ago that dealt with human civilization through the ages. I'll do some research and get back to you, but since I do know some trivial aspects, I'll put them out there.

Medieval Knights did in fact train in particular styles of combat - at least as much as the samurai can be said to have done so. In european swordplay (along with all the other weapons) there were recognized tactics and techniques, strategies, and training.

To the samurai, the tradition was as much the art as the winning of the battle. To the knights, behavior was more important than tradition, and the fighting was only important for what power, wealth, and security it would bring to one's home.

Mike Brewer

Very interesting comparison. Does'nt sound like there was a signifcant difference between the Japanese Samauri and the Medival Knight.

Summarizing; The Knight was more into the honor and monetary reward of swordskills. The knight had his own form of unarmed martial art, though not much is known about it.

The Samauri fought for survival and honor and when he lost, broke or dropped his sword he resorted to unarmed techniques such as breaks, locks, kicks, punches and throws.

Anybody feel free to jump in and correct, add, delete any remarks made in this summary.

[Hardball]

Kudos to you Mr. Brewer,

I found the paradoxes of defense and the brief instruction on the internet for free. I'm going to print it out (34 +pages) and read/study it. I'm hoping this is a classic like :THE BOOK OF 5 RINGS"

Bowing Out

[Tant01]

Click and save...

Paradoxes of Defense was published in 1599...

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/brief.html

See also; http://www.musketeer.org/online.html

One of my favorite of his LONG sentences from his book:


And consider that learning has no greater enemy than ignorance, neither can the unskillful ever judge the truth of my art to them unknown, beware of rash judgment and accept my labors thankfully as I bestow them willingly, censure me justly, let no man despise my work herein causeless, and so I refer myself to the censure of such as are skillful herein and I commit you to the protection of the almighty Jehovah.

Yours in all love and friendly affection,

George Syluer (Silver)

[Tom Yum]

as far as the creation of Aikido, unless i can meet the founder himself, i will believe what i have been told. and if you don't like it find a way to prove me wrong.

Mullins

What's up Mullins.

Aikido is intended as a way of de-esacalating conflict as peacfully as possible. Its a system based off of physics, nothing fancy.

Ok, so your average black belt aikidoka would get reemed by a Randy Couture, but if someone got into a shoving match with him he could innocently make him land on his face.

If someone tried to grab him or her and drag them somewhere or throw a telegraphed haymaker, he could rearrange their shoulder, elbow or wrist.

Every art has their strengths and weaknesses.

[RYO9]

mike, hey man you know that you can just copy and paste from the net if you cite your info. it's a lot easier than doin all that extra work.

and Tom, i know what aikido is based upon nd have a great respect for the art. read back further and you'll see what that is all about, i made a mistake in calling akijiujitsu aikido and staing some things that weren't true of aikido, but were true of akijiujitsu.

[Tant01]

Hey Mr. B.... Do you have anything on Spanish fencing and it's influence around the globe in the early days? They crossed paths with the Japanese in the late 1500's ealry 1600.

[jubaji]

it would have to go to the knight for their willingness to embrace and develop newer, more effective technologies and weapons without feeling like it violated their identity.

This is something of a myth. The Samurai didn't reject "more effective technologies and weapons", they just arrived there later. Polical changes are what they attempted to resist.

[Tant01]

Sigh....

I'll check. But no giving me a hard time about givin up your secrets.

LOL My great great grandad was a Portuguese pirate. The only real secret is where he hid all the booty...