Senator Obama VS Senator Clinton

[Ghost]

Obama made several calls on Iraq. Against, for and back to against. To which "right call" are you referring?

The one that mattered. The one where he didnt vote in favor of going to war.

[Ghost]

Mike its ok to not agree, thats why everyone gets a vote. Doesnt make anyone a bad person, people just have different opinions. I think on this you wouldnt vote for Obama but may do one day perhaps and i wouldnt vote for McCain right now but i wouldnt be very disappointed if he got in either.
I like McCain i just prefer and can see, imo, better reasons to choose Obama.
Hillary i really have no time for. I think thats one thing we agree on lol.

[Ghost]

Ok Mike, ill put something together but i want to be clear on something. You mention that you will list McCAins record and i should list Obamas.

Ive noticed this in the thread that you are very interested in the records of both candidates. While i know this is relevant i think we are both judging on rather different criteria. Im interested in what they actually say, and can say.
For instance i dont doubt that McCain has a record of doing something or other related to economics. However he cant string a sentence together on it and admits he knows nothing about it. Its this kind of thing that bothers me. He may not know what he appears to know on paper.

People having a record on something is all well and good but if at the moment they are required to talk about it all you get is an "um yeah well i dont know about that" or they make mistakes, like McCain just has about AlQueda being in Iran.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkfM7z0-Vdg

Then its worth nothing. People get on all kinds of boards and committees and so on for show purposes yet know nothing.

However, i will put something together but your counters should include video proof that McCain knows and understands what is on his record and it doesnt just exist in ink.
I mean if something is hard to find video of then fine but you get what i mean, i wont be unreasonable and say where is the video if there simply isnt one, that wouldnt be fair.

[jubaji]

On the issue of Iraq again, Obama made the right call McCain didnt.

Which one of his several positions? Surely not the most recent one.

[jubaji]

Mike its ok to not agree, thats why everyone gets a vote.

YOU don't, and don't forget it.

[jubaji]

Ive noticed this in the thread that you are very interested in the records of both candidates. Im interested in what they actually say, and can say.

Superficial idiot

[Ghost]

Which one of his several positions? Surely not the most recent one.

I answered this before, the one that mattered, that would be the one where he didnt vote for the war, i will explain more about the relevance of this later.

Also, regarding what they say as opposed to their records, it matters.
For instance if McCain can make some economic changes now but know or understand them then that means others are doing it for him and he is stamping his name on it.

Thats not good enough at presidential level but is acceptable where he is now. A president has to understand what he is signing for.

[jubaji]

The one where he didnt vote in favor of going to war.

Oh, not the one later where he said his position was just about the same as President Bush's? Not the one where he said it would be irresponsible to pull out all at once and without finishing the job (although later he thought that would be a great idea)? Not the one where he opposed the current strategy that seems to be working well and giving the best chance to resolve the matter successfully?

[Ghost]

Oh, not the one later where he said his position was just about the same as President Bush's? Not the one where he said it would be irresponsible to pull out all at once and without finishing the job (although later he thought that would be a great idea)? Not the one where he opposed the current strategy that seems to be working well and giving the best chance to resolve the matter successfully?

Yes the one where we wouldnt be in this mess when he made the correct choice before.

Besides, dont underestimate the effect his NO vote will have on his standing in the middle east.

[jubaji]

For instance if McCain can make some economic changes now but know or understand them then that means others are doing it for him and he is stamping his name on it.

And who do you think has more experience deliberating and making important concrete decisions relating to the nation's economy?

[Ghost]

And who do you think has more experience deliberating and making important concrete decisions relating to the nation's economy?

well i would have said mccain but i dont think he does, i cant see any real evidence of it. as he doesnt seem to know the first thing about it.
I cant help think hes just handed stuff to sign.
By his own admission, he knows nothing about the economy. He doesnt even understand interest rates.

Have a watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqGWTh_NZ-0

You have to think, hes just signing stuff on the advise of others and his name gets stamped on the deal making him look good.

This is not acceptable at presidential level and especially not now when the states faces an economic crisis. But its not on anyway, a president has to at least be well rounded.

This is primary evidence that he doesnt understand economics, therefore any "record" he has on economics is just him signing things and agree with what good advisors say. Thats not a "record" in anyones book.

[Ghost]

Ok im sitting here typing bits here and there. Anyway ill post up what i have done so far. I didnt go digging up records, i stuck to what i can see being said and what i can see being done based on facts. So ill post up what i did so far, its not everything i have to say its just a bit of it but its a start.
Some of it repeats what i said before. Ive tried to be realistic as well and acknowledge that some things were pretty close calls.

Well lets start with the first option and if i have some time tomorrow then maybe we will do the latter option, might be fun.
Firstly dont get me mixed up with other posters, as i have said before i dont dislike mccain. in some areas i find it hard to choose between mccain and obama as you will see in a minute but overall i prefer Obama.

So you understand my thinking a bit better for this discussion the reasons i prefer Obama in no particular order are because.

1) he has a better understanding of the economy.
2) he made the right choice on iraq when it counted
3) he wants to get out of iraq
4) he will have more influence where it counts on the world scene for the next 4 years - middle east, due to his NO vote, his ethnic background and his middle name.

The most important criteria for me for THIS particular election ( and i specify this one because as world events and national events change different leaders are more suitable, i hope thats common sense) are:
1) Economy
2) International relations and foreign policy
3) Iraq strategy


If you wonder why i dont include anything on health care and education it is because in the west we enjoy massively superior levels of both already and i think no matter what any of them decide there will still be a good service available to everyone regardless of who wins. The factors above affect more people and have a worldwide impact and are therefore more important, imo, given that education and healthcare will remain of a high standard anyway.

1.Economy
This is simply won on the basis that Obama understands more than McCain does about the economy, both have excellent advisors, but you have to be able to have an understandning of economics at presidential level. McCain doesnt understand the economy in the slightest, that is clear and therefore he actually doesnt make any decisions on it, he just goes along with the advice. To say he makes economic decisions is false. I cant accept this from a national leader.

I think the US needs a leader that can understand the economy and make some decisions on it.
I think you need a leader that understands his own economic policies. Now i know that no leader can do everything fully, it doesnt happen, they have advisors. But they should understandtheir own policies and be able to talk about the economy in some detail at least.
Some of Obama's economic policy is here

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/samgrahamfelsen/Cmzm

2. International relations and foreign policy

Dealing with the rest of the world.
In particular the middle east. The fact that Obama voted against the war gives him a huge boost in the middle east.
Regardless on if he changed his mind later and then back again its the perception that is vital and the fact he cast the correct vote means everything there. This is not a point scoring competition, its far more important than that. Even if Obama changed his mind later, the very perception that he opposed the war means the middle east is wishing he will be the next president. This means they will talk to him.

This also shows the importance of getting it right at the right time. For all McCains experience he made the wrong call. I dont care how you mix it, he got it wrong, Obama got it right.
I know and understand that it was a close call in Obama getting it right and he has changed his mind. Nevertheless he got it right and McCain got it wrong. Its like someone making a mistake in the last minute of a game or getting it right, the outcome effects who wins the game and so is everything. Again, saying he changed his mind later means nothing, i accept he did, he got it right when it mattered and the middle east thinks so too, thats all that matters in the real world.
You wont get muslim leaders and public sitting down and saying "ah yes but look here he changed his mind". They see the NO vote, thats what counts.

He also went to a muslim school and grew up in Indonesia, a muslim country, and his middle name is Hussein. A name that has great standing among muslims, you must not underestimate this, it gives power, literally. Muslim culture works differently and the name Hussein in itself has meaning.

This combined gives him bargaining power McCain cant ever have, thats not McCains fault, its a chance of birth but nevertheless it is true.
McCain voted for the war, is white,ex military and republican and doesnt see a need to leave Iraq. You know what i mean here, its the perception that counts and Obama will be seen in a better light and that is the guy i would send in to get things done in the middle east.
Obama explains this well here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpjWAzqAwcw

Obama has more potential, if he lives up to it or not would remain to be seen but he can open doors McCain cant.

Foreign policy.
I like both foreign policies and cant really choose anything between obama and mccain. For instance i like this by McCain very much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5QKyUvZv5A

Going to the point above though i think Obama has the influence in the most important area. To me that nudges it in Obamas favor.


3. Iraq
We need a guy that understands the situation, i think both do, though stuff like this scares me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkfM7z0-Vdg

We need, imo, an exit strategy. Obama has this McCain does not. However i understand McCains point of view and im not entirely against his opinion.
We also need a guy that makes the right choice at the right time. Obama did this, regardless of if he changed his mind. You know i bet anyone making such an important decision has doubts and isnt sure.
What matters though is the ability to cast the correct vote at the correct time, Obama did this.
Obama edges the lead in this argument for me though given that we are there now and the situation stands im not actually against McCains policy, i just prefer Obamas idea.

Do you think middle eastern leader want to talk to a guy that doesnt have an exit strategy for Iraq, i dont.

What puts me off McCain.
On paper McCain has a good profile, no doubt about that. Mike, you mention his record alot. He has more experience than Obama, sure, i dont disagree.
McCain is the guy that is great on paper so you invite him for an interview. Then you get the equivalent of the youtube links i have listed above.
And you sit there thinking, well that wasnt quite what i expected given the guys experiences.

On a side note did anyone ever work out if McCain is actually allowed to become president as he wasnt born in america?

[jubaji]

Besides, dont underestimate the effect his NO vote will have on his standing in the middle east.

You're right, our enemies WILL see it as a sign of weakness. Good point. Combined with near total inexperience and an addiction to rhetoric over substance, they'll just be respecting the heck out of us.


You are an idiot.

[jubaji]

btw, shouting "Yes we can!" and raising taxes is not a brilliant economic plan

well i would have said mccain .

and you would have been right.

[Ghost]

You're right, our enemies WILL see it as a sign of weakness. Good point. Combined with near total inexperience and an addiction to rhetoric over substance, they'll just be respecting the heck out of us.


You are an idiot.

Since when were they our enemies?