Wing Chun or Muay Thai

[yentao]

but why must one go to HongKong to fight a WC guy?
I train WC (WT) but I feel that most of WC guys just rely too heavily on faak-sau/biu jee sau to eyes/throat - which is why they say their art is "too deadly". They forget that MT or BJJ guys also accept not to rely on eyes/throat/groin targets while fighting... but also that these other fighters could use "dirty" fighting in a street confrontation just like WC people!

Don't you think its better to go learn or test the art's credibility somewhere where it started?

Any combat arts can be deadly LOL. In real fight anything could be the other way around, only skills and techniques makes the differences and changes.

[kodankan]

i say pee on em
thatll gross them out long enough to leave the area

[bartjam]

Don't you think its better to go learn or test the art's credibility somewhere where it started?

well if you're talking about WT, then people like Kernspecht, Boztepe & Co. are Europe or US-based... moreover, I do think that BJJ coming from one of the most violent areas of the world (brazilian big towns) also can cope with non-sport, dirty tricks for street fighting.
But it can also work without 'em, as it has been proven in NHB events. I think that if WT can't work in NHB it's because its structure/footwork is weak. But again, that's not proved, as no WT man ever enters the cage...
I train WT for street defense and I can make it work (experience), so I'm quite satisfied. But the system should be tested against highly skilled professional fighters. It couldn't but improve from it.

[krys]

BJJ coming from one of the most violent areas of the world (brazilian big towns)

Because you think China wasn't/isn't a violent place?

I think that if WT can't work in NHB it's because its structure/footwork is weak.

The strength of WC lies in it's structure, all the strikes, deflections are based on a good structure.... few understand wc's structure and footwork that's why there are quite a lot
bad practitioners... one of my friends is studying WC in Guangzou, only thing he did during his first six months was to work on rooting, keeping a good structure while striking and footwork, didn't even learn the first form.
.... there is no weak structure in wc just weak students who take it like a hobby and don't train to fight...

[CKD]

Quote"as no WT man ever enters the cage."
A wt person has entered the cage. Several have in fact. One clip is at www.bullshido.com go to the downloads section, style vs. style and then the last clip is wt vs submission wrestling. Enjoy watching Wt in the cage

[Tameo]

Quote"as no WT man ever enters the cage."
A wt person has entered the cage. Several have in fact. One clip is at www.bullshido.com go to the downloads section, style vs. style and then the last clip is wt vs submission wrestling. Enjoy watching Wt in the cage

That guy got raped

[sherwinc]

Quote"as no WT man ever enters the cage."
A wt person has entered the cage. Several have in fact. One clip is at www.bullshido.com go to the downloads section, style vs. style and then the last clip is wt vs submission wrestling. Enjoy watching Wt in the cage

He doesnt know how to use WingChun, he doesnt know the principles of:

He who comes - meet,
He who withdraws - follow,
Loosing of a hand contact -rush-in.

He doesnt know the principles of:
The shortest distance between point A to point B is a straight line.

He doesnt know the principles of:
Trading blows then chain punching

He doesnt know about WingChun

why????????

it is because when your forearm sticks with a wingchun forearm, you could no longer release your forearm to a wingchun's forearm if the wingchun fighter wont allow it...... but if you insist to release your forearm to a wingchun's forearm - a sudden 4 times sunfists landed on your nose.... then a blood flows from your nose..... even though when youre sitting on top of the chest of the wingchun fighter - still you could not punch or attack the wingchun cause the wingchun has the advantages of controlling your arms....... remember....... when your forearm meets the wingchun's forearm, your forearm is already controlled by the wingchun's forearm.

[yentao]

well if you're talking about WT, then people like Kernspecht, Boztepe & Co. are Europe or US-based... moreover, I do think that BJJ coming from one of the most violent areas of the world (brazilian big towns) also can cope with non-sport, dirty tricks for street fighting.
But it can also work without 'em, as it has been proven in NHB events. I think that if WT can't work in NHB it's because its structure/footwork is weak. But again, that's not proved, as no WT man ever enters the cage...
I train WT for street defense and I can make it work (experience), so I'm quite satisfied. But the system should be tested against highly skilled professional fighters. It couldn't but improve from it.

Boztepe and Kernspecht? Heard they got some arguements...

[CKD]

Sherwinc you judged that he did not know the principle of wing chun in a less than 1 mintue match? How could you judge that when he never had a chance to show them and he launched a good wing chun punch before the guy did a double leg take down. The forearm of wing chun is not garunteed to work and there is dispute that the chi sao things in wing chun would work for real. Also the forearms barely even touched eachother.

[sherwinc]

Sherwinc you judged that he did not know the principle of wing chun in a less than 1 mintue match? How could you judge that when he never had a chance to show them and he launched a good wing chun punch before the guy did a double leg take down. The forearm of wing chun is not garunteed to work and there is dispute that the chi sao things in wing chun would work for real. Also the forearms barely even touched eachother.

Because the WingChun fighter did not stick his forearm when the wrestler punch....

if he only apply outside tan sau to deflect and stick to the forearm of the punching wrestler - while the wrestler attempts to launch another punch - with a 3rd principle of wingchun "LOOSING OF A HAND CONTACT - RUSH-IN" and follow-up with a rapid chain punching to the glass head of the wrestler even thou the wrestler sitting on top of the wingchuns chest still the wrestler will loose consciousness when hit with a rapid chain punching.

WingChun Maxim:
1. He who comes - meet
2. He who withdraws - follow
3. Loosing of a hand contact - rush-in

[IPON]

I am confused ...... why would an experienced wrestler grab somone's hands The strikes had no power and didn't make contact. very odd clip

[choylifutrocks]

"Ok, for example, if you spin and kick at a concious, undazed, mentally aware person all they have to do is duck to avoid it. "

Well shit man! Why didn't I think of that! Duck! Oh my god! Wish someone had told me about ducking before all the times I got knocked out or hit so hard my head felt like it was going to explode......

Did i ever say that a spinning kick had no power? No. So I'm sure you have been kicked in the head so hard that you were KO'd or felt like your head was going to explode. That all happens in the ring under Muay Thai rules, for five rounds you beat the hell outta each other and somewhere in between you get kicked in the head. OK, that's fine and dandy. But if I have to go spar a highly skilled striker, I invite you to spar with a highly skilled grappler and do a spinning kick to his head as you start the match Tell me whether you end up in the prone, or supine position One thing is for sure, you will not end up in a standing position.

[choylifutrocks]

"Ok, for example, if you spin and kick at a concious, undazed, mentally aware person all they have to do is duck to avoid it. "

Well shit man! Why didn't I think of that! Duck! Oh my god! Wish someone had told me about ducking before all the times I got knocked out or hit so hard my head felt like it was going to explode......

Did i ever say that a spinning kick had no power? No. So I'm sure you have been kicked in the head so hard that you were KO'd or felt like your head was going to explode. That all happens in the ring under Muay Thai rules, for five rounds you beat the hell outta each other and somewhere in between you get kicked in the head. OK, that's fine and dandy. But if I have to go spar a highly skilled striker, I invite you to spar with a highly skilled grappler and do a spinning kick to his head as you start the match Tell me whether you end up in the prone, or supine position One thing is for sure, you will not end up in a standing position.

I know how we can logically come to a conclusion about the issue. Lets watch every NHB MMA match ever recorded, count the number (if any) that started with spinning kicks and did so successfully. I even dare to challenge the event, or successful event of a spinning kick throughout the entire collection of fights. Lets come up with some sort of success to failure ratio. However, I am holding my position of attacking an aware opponent, not beat to hell already.

CLFR
Honour Common Sense

[Damian Mavis]

I already told you, using ANY big technique right off the bat is stupid (like big hook punch). Fighting is about smart strategy, smart strategy does not include opening with big techniques. Watch boxers, they jab and poke and feel for the first bit, same in Muay Thai, same in TKD, same in everything I've seen.

I do grapple and have sparred grapplers. As a joke I might lightly kick them in the head as an opener but there really is no point, strikes only work by deterring your opponent, deterring your opponent means hitting them full out... we don't do that in sparring, otherwise nobody would be able to spar too long. I prefer to jab and lowkick and rely on my sprawl alot at first anyway.

Please, DO NOT bring up kicking in MMA events, I have NEVER seen good kickers in MMA. Good boxers ya but very few can kick worth a damn let alone do a highly technical kick that requires a decade of training just to perfect and make realisticly usable. MMA guys don't have the time to work on techniques like that, most follow the same formula as all the others, grappling, boxing, and muay thai. Usually they are really good at one while the others are passable due to limits on training time. I foresee a huge change in MMA (as it has already been evolving) down the road when it is more mainstream and kids are being trained in it and by the time they are in their 20's they are experts in every range.

Also you are overconfident in this whole "well he was beaten and dazed so no wonder he got knocked out by a kick". That's an unrealistic opinion in order to make you feel better about not having to worry about head kicks. I've seen them used right at the beggining of a fight on a fully trained and fully aware non tired fighter and knock him out instantly. The majority of fights and fighters though have a feeling out period, but some use surprise to their advantage and win their fight right away.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[IPON]

I foresee a huge change in MMA (as it has already been evolving) down the road when it is more mainstream and kids are being trained in it and by the time they are in their 20's they are experts in every range.

Damian do you see more variety of kicks in MMA if they really only train MT, I do see that in PRIDE K1 not so much UFC. But I am wondering if the emphasis will change from ground to more fighter wanting standup. Not complete standup but less willingness to let the fight go to the ground. It will definately be interesting to see what happens in 5-10 yrs.