Why are traditional martial arts seen as "ineffective"?

[kesslari]

Please read this post before answering - this is an honest question for which I'd like a good answer (something better than "Muay Thai/BJJ Rules!" or "Karate sucks!").
Traditional Asian martial arts (Kung Fu, Karate-do, presumably some of the Korean styles) developed over centuries. I would think that people studied them, and that they continued to be studied over time, because they were effective fighting systems. So why are they so poorly regarded (especially by MMA people) today (the common complaint is something like "worthless in a street fight")?
Is it because street fighters today (and particularly in the West) are so much more devastating than street fighters in Asia in centuries past? Were they all wussies then? Or were there no streetfighters?
Is it because now that there are more "synthesis" styles combining the best of various traditional styles? So any one style is seen as "less effective"? If so, this makes sense for Traditional Arts vs. Modern MMA, but where do the "streetfighters" fit in?
Is it because these styles tend to be poorly taught in the West? In which case it is less a matter of "ineffective style" but "ineffective training"?
I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts, particularly with regard to history.
Kesslari

[akja]

Theres 2 sides to the coin. I train hard like a lot of people. Times like now when I have an injury which this time is an arm injury, I pick up my cardio into high gear. I run 5-7 miles a day and I bump it up from every other day to 5 days a week. Physically I get into great shape.

But physical is not enough. To many of todays fighters say that old guy can't fight. What would happen if Helio Gracie was challenged by some young guy?

To grow as a martial artist we need to be able to go past the physical training and into the "next level" of our training. Most fighters retire and quit training. Many get fat and can't fight anymore. Is that who we want to take example from?

I learn from a few of the "wise ones" because they have the answers that I seek. I've trained BJJ for a few years and I'm not great but most of the guys I've trained with couldn't stand up with me. And what do you think the chances are for them to get me down. Fat chance. Now I'm adding Trad. Ju Jitsu to my art because it has more submissions when combined with BJJ it gets even better.

I think the hybrid and trad. artists waste to much time ponting fingers at each other and would better spend their time seeking higher knowledge.

We can only punch and kick and armlock so many ways. So if we want to still be training when we are old then we need guidance from those who know.

Whats right for me is wrong for you but if you close your eyes to everything except "what you beleive today" then tomorrow where will you be.

I think the bottom line is that our arts are as week as we are.

If some one says trapping does not work. WHAT they are really saying is "I can't make trapping work." The same can be said for any technique in any art. We have all of the answers available, we just need the right guidance to understand them.

[konghan]

Me, I think it is becuase MA has become so widespread & commercialised that training has been "water down" to meet the demands of of the market.

And TMA like kung fu is still a very effective street self defense fighting art. In south east asia alone countries like in the Philippines. Malaysia, Thailand or Indonesia kung fu is still an important part of local societies means of self defense there, & street fighting is more often than in the west. MA fighters there train for real situation.

MA in the west is more geared on the sport & social aspects. Many students are given a false sense of accomplishments because of the nature of business here.

A good example is: in th east kung fu masters can yell, shout, insult, & physically make it hard for students. MA schools in Asia are supported by the community, Masters are involve not only in teaching fighting but in chinese medicine as well & provide charitable clinic in their area. MA school in its original sense is more like a boot camp worse than a military training camp. In the West MA masters & instrcutors are more like "baby sitters" they`er supposed to play nice to students, they are not allowed to criticise them, they must always give them a good "pat in the back, good job".

Kung fu has always been evolving & adopting as well as finding new ways & techniques. It is not geared on making kung fu an entertainement sport as what the west is doing, health is the number one priority in kung fu.

What is happening is that the commercialised sports are making TMA look bad because they don`t participate in their business, also most of those " champions" in commercial tournaments are of 170 lbs+. In Asia there are not many of those, but from 160 lbs- there are many great fighters.

Anyway, kung fu prefer not to be a commercial sport control by some conglomerate it chooses to be independent developing on its own.

[Mister]

Please read this post before answering - this is an honest question for which I'd like a good answer (something better than "Muay Thai/BJJ Rules!" or "Karate sucks!").
Traditional Asian martial arts (Kung Fu, Karate-do, presumably some of the Korean styles) developed over centuries. I would think that people studied them, and that they continued to be studied over time, because they were effective fighting systems. So why are they so poorly regarded (especially by MMA people) today (the common complaint is something like "worthless in a street fight")?
Is it because street fighters today (and particularly in the West) are so much more devastating than street fighters in Asia in centuries past? Were they all wussies then? Or were there no streetfighters?
Is it because now that there are more "synthesis" styles combining the best of various traditional styles? So any one style is seen as "less effective"? If so, this makes sense for Traditional Arts vs. Modern MMA, but where do the "streetfighters" fit in?
Is it because these styles tend to be poorly taught in the West? In which case it is less a matter of "ineffective style" but "ineffective training"?
I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts, particularly with regard to history.
Kesslari

Reasons:
1) Too much silly, mystical stuff like forms and strange stances.
2) Impractical techniques.
3) No full- contact sparring.
4) Too much putting your hand at your waist instead of covering your face.
The list goes on...

[akja]

Please read this post before answering - this is an honest question for which I'd like a good answer (something better than "Muay Thai/BJJ Rules!" or "Karate sucks!").
Traditional Asian martial arts (Kung Fu, Karate-do, presumably some of the Korean styles) developed over centuries. I would think that people studied them, and that they continued to be studied over time, because they were effective fighting systems. So why are they so poorly regarded (especially by MMA people) today (the common complaint is something like "worthless in a street fight")?
Is it because street fighters today (and particularly in the West) are so much more devastating than street fighters in Asia in centuries past? Were they all wussies then? Or were there no streetfighters?
Is it because now that there are more "synthesis" styles combining the best of various traditional styles? So any one style is seen as "less effective"? If so, this makes sense for Traditional Arts vs. Modern MMA, but where do the "streetfighters" fit in?
Is it because these styles tend to be poorly taught in the West? In which case it is less a matter of "ineffective style" but "ineffective training"?
I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts, particularly with regard to history.
Kesslari

Reasons:
1) Too much silly, mystical stuff like forms and strange stances.
2) Impractical techniques.
3) No full- contact sparring.
4) Too much putting your hand at your waist instead of covering your face.
The list goes on...

And how many years experience do you have in the trad. arts that allowed you to come up with your theory?

[Thai Bri]

I have quite a few years in Traditional martial Arts. So here goes!

- Teaching masses instead of indiviuals/small groups led to the techniques being adjusted to be easier to learn. And , as such, less effective.

- Money. Hard work uis not popular, so students are encouraged to stay by being given high grades for little effort.

- Training practices are genuinely ineffective, i.e. all this air punching and forms. its bollocks.

- Mystical and philosophical clap trap. Yres, some people are GENUINELY into Budo and Buddhism etc. etc. But the vast majority of people aren't. But they hide behind it when someone questions their style or methods.

- Ridiculous claims about Chi or Ki. And these claims are backed up by stupid demonstrations were a student (desperately wanting to believe in the style) is thrown around by the Chi of the "Master" in front of a crowd.

All this, and more, helps us answer the questuion of "why are traditional martial arts seen as ineffective"

The answer? BECAUSE THEY ARE!

[akja]

I have quite a few years in Traditional martial Arts. So here goes!

- Teaching masses instead of indiviuals/small groups led to the techniques being adjusted to be easier to learn. And , as such, less effective.

- Money. Hard work uis not popular, so students are encouraged to stay by being given high grades for little effort.

- Training practices are genuinely ineffective, i.e. all this air punching and forms. its bollocks.

- Mystical and philosophical clap trap. Yres, some people are GENUINELY into Budo and Buddhism etc. etc. But the vast majority of people aren't. But they hide behind it when someone questions their style or methods.

- Ridiculous claims about Chi or Ki. And these claims are backed up by stupid demonstrations were a student (desperately wanting to believe in the style) is thrown around by the Chi of the "Master" in front of a crowd.

All this, and more, helps us answer the questuion of "why are traditional martial arts seen as ineffective"

The answer? BECAUSE THEY ARE!

Bri, I know you started training somewhere back around when I did. You've "earned" your opinion.

I've done a lot in the arts. Trad., hybrid and sport. I teach hybrid, BUT I am learning from some of the old ones and it there is still a learning curve that we can draw from.

I'm not going to train in a class like most students though. I've done to much to go back to that.

[sherwinc]

I have quite a few years in Traditional martial Arts. So here goes!

- Teaching masses instead of indiviuals/small groups led to the techniques being adjusted to be easier to learn. And , as such, less effective.

- Money. Hard work uis not popular, so students are encouraged to stay by being given high grades for little effort.

- Training practices are genuinely ineffective, i.e. all this air punching and forms. its bollocks.

- Mystical and philosophical clap trap. Yres, some people are GENUINELY into Budo and Buddhism etc. etc. But the vast majority of people aren't. But they hide behind it when someone questions their style or methods.

- Ridiculous claims about Chi or Ki. And these claims are backed up by stupid demonstrations were a student (desperately wanting to believe in the style) is thrown around by the Chi of the "Master" in front of a crowd.

All this, and more, helps us answer the questuion of "why are traditional martial arts seen as ineffective"

The answer? BECAUSE THEY ARE!

because without commercialized martial arts - means no money..... if theres no money - means no income......

the more Human Dummy Fighters - the more income

the more income - a happy face

the more Human Dummy - the more entertaining

Note:
the fight is not commercialized if you finish your opponent before 60 seconds....

the ratio of back to back hits is 50:50 the more entertaining (delaying time tactic)

My Advice:
please watch the movie titled "Spiderman" ..... there you could see that HumanSpider(spiderman) joins the WWF and finish his opponent before 60 seconds..... while he get his reward(money) they gave him few money cause what spiderman did is not entertaining cause he instantly finish the match.... what he did is not entertaining (not a commercialized type)

Note:
it is only a movie but this also helps you awakened.......

this helps you to CONVINCED............

[Nothingness]

I have quite a few years in Traditional martial Arts. So here goes!

- Teaching masses instead of indiviuals/small groups led to the techniques being adjusted to be easier to learn. And , as such, less effective.

- Money. Hard work uis not popular, so students are encouraged to stay by being given high grades for little effort.

- Training practices are genuinely ineffective, i.e. all this air punching and forms. its bollocks.

- Mystical and philosophical clap trap. Yres, some people are GENUINELY into Budo and Buddhism etc. etc. But the vast majority of people aren't. But they hide behind it when someone questions their style or methods.

- Ridiculous claims about Chi or Ki. And these claims are backed up by stupid demonstrations were a student (desperately wanting to believe in the style) is thrown around by the Chi of the "Master" in front of a crowd.

All this, and more, helps us answer the questuion of "why are traditional martial arts seen as ineffective"

The answer? BECAUSE THEY ARE!

I know that you had a bad experience. I don't know where you learned what you learned, but that sucks. However, I think you are overgeneralizing.

-The pupils in my school get a one-to-one attention. No mass training whatsoever. Unless you call training 4 people at one as a mass training.

-Money is never an issue in my school. The teacher doesn't even ask for money. We give what we think is appropriate. No grades, no intitiation fee, no even uniform fee. We can train wherever. I used to train in his living room with broken floor (broken floors from hard steps). While the teacher never pushes students to train hard, he gives a special attention to those who want to work hard (those seasonal students will drop out fast, anyway).

-Forms are foundation to build reflex. I won't go into this issue, but our school's skills are kept tested by real world applications (i.e. real self-defense situations). My teacher believes that Ngo Cho Kun is an evolving art. Although, he believes in the preservation of the genuine arts as the foundation, he keeps telling me to seek more to expand my skills. I had been suspecting that he learned jujitsu or judo from the way he teaches joint lockings. My suspiscion was confirmed today. He told me that he got so many students from the past from so many different arts; he learned what he thinks are useful.

-My teacher never talks about any philosophical craps although he is very religious himself. He is a very practical although is still very traditional person. He only told me to be careful in using what I have learned.

-I never get this kind of claim except that most of the people in my school usually finish a street fight in one or two attacks.


I just think that you walked in into the wrong door, completely devote yourself to that particular teacher, and got disappointed. That sucks, but it is inappropriate to generalize one bad experience.

Maybe you should be more careful choosing what you learn. It seems that you are happy with what you have been learning now; that's good.

On the other hand, I had been walking from one door to another in the US. I found nothing really interesting. I am sure there are many good instructions out there, but I haven't found them yet.

Couple things you need to consider when you want to join an MA school:

1) Is the instructor really skillful. If you have enough experiences in MA, you can roughly tell if s/he is real or a dancer.
2) Is the instructor willing and capable of teaching. Some people are good fighters, but they can't teach. Some people are teaching because they need money although they dont like to.
3) Even when the instructor is willing and capable of teaching, is he using a method that can transmit the training effectively (i.e. does the place have 10 or 1000 students? ). Harder skills require a longer time for cultivation; don't get trapped into trying to learn something instantly.
4) Check the reputation of the school outside and the track records of the students. Are they known as wuss (got beaten up frequently)? Are they only after competitons (which often neglect the self-defense aspect). Etc.

Don't trust the brochure!

[Thai Bri]

Jeez.... I have been more unlucky than you think! In my search for an effective fighting art I have walked through quite a few doors! I'm not basing this on my experiences at just one club you know!

[DragonAE86]

Jeez.... I have been more unlucky than you think! In my search for an effective fighting art I have walked through quite a few doors! I'm not basing this on my experiences at just one club you know!

A few of my students have also had similar experiences from certain gyms they thought were effective 'street fighting' applications, only to experience rude awakening later on.

At least you did find something that does work for you and that without a doubt is the most important factor.

Nothing wrong with being spiritual, but to use mysticism as an excuse for lack of training and effective techinque is a sham, avoid these inviduals at all costs.

Personally for those who want to learn to fight, they should seek an instructors who has proper fighting experinece, be it on the street, in full contact comps or working the doors. These type will know what works, as they are applying their method of fighting in fighting situations.

[sherwinc]

I know that you had a bad experience. I don't know where you learned what you learned, but that sucks. However, I think you are overgeneralizing.

-The pupils in my school get a one-to-one attention. No mass training whatsoever. Unless you call training 4 people at one as a mass training.

-Money is never an issue in my school. The teacher doesn't even ask for money. We give what we think is appropriate. No grades, no intitiation fee, no even uniform fee. We can train wherever. I used to train in his living room with broken floor (broken floors from hard steps). While the teacher never pushes students to train hard, he gives a special attention to those who want to work hard (those seasonal students will drop out fast, anyway).

-Forms are foundation to build reflex. I won't go into this issue, but our school's skills are kept tested by real world applications (i.e. real self-defense situations). My teacher believes that Ngo Cho Kun is an evolving art. Although, he believes in the preservation of the genuine arts as the foundation, he keeps telling me to seek more to expand my skills. I had been suspecting that he learned jujitsu or judo from the way he teaches joint lockings. My suspiscion was confirmed today. He told me that he got so many students from the past from so many different arts; he learned what he thinks are useful.

-My teacher never talks about any philosophical craps although he is very religious himself. He is a very practical although is still very traditional person. He only told me to be careful in using what I have learned.

-I never get this kind of claim except that most of the people in my school usually finish a street fight in one or two attacks.


I just think that you walked in into the wrong door, completely devote yourself to that particular teacher, and got disappointed. That sucks, but it is inappropriate to generalize one bad experience.

Maybe you should be more careful choosing what you learn. It seems that you are happy with what you have been learning now; that's good.

On the other hand, I had been walking from one door to another in the US. I found nothing really interesting. I am sure there are many good instructions out there, but I haven't found them yet.

Couple things you need to consider when you want to join an MA school:

1) Is the instructor really skillful. If you have enough experiences in MA, you can roughly tell if s/he is real or a dancer.
2) Is the instructor willing and capable of teaching. Some people are good fighters, but they can't teach. Some people are teaching because they need money although they dont like to.
3) Even when the instructor is willing and capable of teaching, is he using a method that can transmit the training effectively (i.e. does the place have 10 or 1000 students? ). Harder skills require a longer time for cultivation; don't get trapped into trying to learn something instantly.
4) Check the reputation of the school outside and the track records of the students. Are they known as wuss (got beaten up frequently)? Are they only after competitons (which often neglect the self-defense aspect). Etc.

Don't trust the brochure!

Non-Commercialized KungFu Martial Arts School.... a very nice to hear this quote of yours.....

Our KungFu club, we pay 200 pesos/month (Philippine currency) for the purpose of club monthly rental, cause we dont owned the building..... after 12 months of paying 200 pesos, its free..... my kungfu instructor is the one who continues to pay the building.... we are a total of 15 students only....

And we did this 3 or 4 times a week:
1. free watching martial arts movies in a cinema after practice....
2. free watching martial arts laser disk in my instructors home....
3. free eating at city restaurants after practicing and before watching martial arts movie theatre.....
4. free overning sleep at my instructors home....
5. and before going home - an additional extra debate for the current issues on how to expand our knowledge (kungfu faq)

Our instructor always said:
be sure to practice your kungfu in 6 D's:
1. Determination
2. Devotion
3. Diligent
4. Defense
5. Dedication
6. and the last is Destruction to the enemy

failure to do it for more than 3 times will be automatically expelled


Note:
Commercialized Martial Arts School and Fake KungFu School will truely hate this Non-Commercialized Rules......

[Nothingness]

Jeez.... I have been more unlucky than you think! In my search for an effective fighting art I have walked through quite a few doors! I'm not basing this on my experiences at just one club you know!

One more thing. It is always better to learn one style that is the nearest to its development center (not the origin!). Like learning kungfu in China or Southeast Asia, MuayThai in Thailand, Jujitsu in Japan or Brazil, etc. It will be off target to learn, let's say wrestling, in Pagua New Guinea (just for an example).

The further the style from its development center, the less chance you'll find an instruction that is still developing. You'll end up with teachers who boast a certain lineage, but in reality teaching a formalized dead art.

Please understand that my messages are not created to bash you. I am just trying to balance the weight so that others who are still seeking can also learn from our experiences.

Best of lucks!

[darrianation]

I am like TB in that I have been on a quest to find efficient and effective self-defense. In this quest I have also been through many doors, trained in many dojos and styles, read many books and purchased video tapes, and went to many seminars, I have also talked to many martial artists and instructors.

Most of what I have found in the TMAs was inefficiency every where I looked. The systems that seemed to be more efficient were systems that really were more hard core, the type that most everyday people wouldn’t want go to.


I think the answer all though hard for many to see but is actually very simple. Toudy, and excessive force really hit it on the head (and others too) when they said TMAs were never meant for the masses, commercialism.

Excessiveforce said it best:

Who in martial arts doesn't dream of having their own hardcore school where their people win at tournaments, are feared by criminals and thugs, and are making enough money to live comfortably hanging out with their students and working on improving themselves?

MMA gets the tough guys that aren't afraid to get turned into a bloody mass, or have their arms busted up. The rest of the ma gets the kids and housewifes. Excessiveforce I hope you don’t mind me quoting you.

[Tom Yum]

IWho in martial arts doesn't dream of having their own hardcore school where their people win at tournaments, are feared by criminals and thugs, and are making enough money to live comfortably hanging out with their students and working on improving themselves?

MMA gets the tough guys that aren't afraid to get turned into a bloody mass, or have their arms busted up. The rest of the ma gets the kids and housewifes. Excessiveforce I hope you don’t mind me quoting you.

I agree with most of Excessive Force's quote, but its a bit polar.

I have met guys in traditional martial arts that are fit, tough and really good fighters in systems like Tangsoo Do, Pukalan Tjimande, Kenpojitsu, and Tukong Musool to name a few. They weren't rough and tough in appearance, but they've developed focus, toughness and stamina like you wouldn't believe. They are average Joe's who have paid their dues.

These are arts that are taught in a traditional east or southeast asian fashion, but are taught rigorously with training getting more intense and realistic as you advance. Granted, you work gradually into full contact/live training but there are gaps to fill in the general public in terms of fitness, coordination, flexibility and stamina much less proper technique.

If everyone who entered traditional martial arts was a college football player, powerlifter, sprinter or a gymnast and trained under rigorous and realistic instructors, you'd see alot of feared black belts under these styles and instructors getting produced rather quickly.

However, the average person works for 8 hours a day or more and may or may not have family responsibilities. They need a year or two to slowly develop coordination, fitness, balance, proper relaxation etc. Then, once they've built up a foundation then they can get into some serious training and kick butt.

Its a long term commitment in either case. You should also be upfront to students about how your art is ability based and that they can test when you think they are ready. If you are in a traditional art and testing for your black belt in lets say Tang soo do, you should be able to throw a triple-front leg side kick and hitting the knees, ribs and neck without tiring or taking longer than 1 second. Likewise, you should be ready to train at a higher intensity level.

Too often you see the brown belt at the black belt test throwing the low side kick with good snap, but no power, then take another second to chamber, set and kick at the ribs and then throw the high kick but only 2" higher then the rib kick and it barely flicks out. I don't think you're doing your student a favor if they've advanced this far in their training and are taking 4 seconds to kick 3 targets, without much speed or power - If its cardio kickboxing, it might be acceptable but for fighting/self-defense, no way.


That's my $0.02. Can I get another coupon?