Medival Knight VS Japanese Samauri (sp)

[Tant01]

The technique is uh rather UNUSUAL ...

This is tough to visualize without either seeing it done or seeing the drawings from Talhoffer's text. Also remember the HUGE cross gaurds these swords had. They used the pommels as hammers and hooks.

That's an underhanded tactic. "murder" is defined as the unlawful and malicious or premeditated killing. I had no trouble visualizing the technique without the diagrams.

It's just a trick.

I'd like to see how he sets it up...

[Garland]

Oh youve read it already? you own it ? so they were crude and lacked tactics? plate 241 didnt look to common or simple but hey youre the expert.. I suppose you also read The Art Of War by Machiavelli before you said they lacked tactics in the middle ages?

Nicolo Machiavelli wrote "The Prince" , Sun Tzu wrote the "Art of War", you fucking idiot.

"The Prince" was more of a political how-to book than a book of war, and delved much less into the topic than many of his contemporary Asiatic authors.

[BoarSpear]

Nicolo Machiavelli wrote "The Prince" , Sun Tzu wrote the "Art of War", you fucking idiot.

"The Prince" was more of a political how-to book than a book of war, and delved much less into the topic than many of his contemporary Asiatic authors.

DUH ..really? WRONG! Actually there are 3 major pieces to the Niccolo Machiavelli puzzle so to speak. THE PRINCE as you noted ...good boy gold star.
The Discourses that you missed...no star Dunce cap for you.
AND Last but not least THE ART OF WAR. or ARTE DELLA GUERRA . Now had we been in the Chinese forums discussing ART of WAR by Sun Tzu I would have been wrong but alas we are discussing medieval Knights vs samurai and the ART OF WAR by Niccolo Machiavelli ISBN 0-306-80412-3 It was one of Frederick the Greats favorite books as well as Clausewitz's but then you probably dont know who they are either. I figured some know it all was gonna run head long into that ...even had some bets on who it was gonna be..lets just say I won. Btw if you are aware of THE LOST ART of WAR and the story of SUN BIN you'll appreciate the running headlong into a trap just a little better jr.

[Garland]

DUH ..really? WRONG! Actually there are 3 major pieces to the Niccolo Machiavelli puzzle so to speak. THE PRINCE as you noted ...good boy gold star.
The Discourses that you missed...no star Dunce cap for you.
AND Last but not least THE ART OF WAR. or ARTE DELLA GUERRA . Now had we been in the Chinese forums discussing ART of WAR by Sun Tzu I would have been wrong but alas we are discussing medieval Knights vs samurai and the ART OF WAR by Niccolo Machiavelli ISBN 0-306-80412-3 It was one of Frederick the Greats favorite books as well as Clausewitz's but then you probably dont know who they are either. I figured some know it all was gonna run head long into that ...even had some bets on who it was gonna be..lets just say I won. Btw if you are aware of THE LOST ART of WAR and the story of SUN BIN you'll appreciate the running headlong into a trap just a little better jr.

indulge me professor. Since you seem to know everything about everything, why don't you explain the parallels and the historical significances of these great tomes of literature.

Really. Go on, you started this, lets finish it in an intellegent and dignified manner, let's hear some outlines.

[Tant01]

The seven books?

Nicolo Machiavelli wrote "The Prince" , Sun Tzu wrote the "Art of War", you fucking idiot.

....

I thought he was testing you...



I was right.



Is BoarSpear a Pentjaker?





THE SEVEN BOOKS ON THE ART OF WAR
BY NICCOLO MACHIAVELLI
CITIZEN AND SECRETARY OF FLORENCE
[1520]

http://www.constitution.org/mac/artofwar_.htm

[Hardball]

Invisibility or Invincibility? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass - I just haven't read the book. My view (from an admitted standpoint of ignorange, mind you) is that if the walls were truly impenetrable, Babylon would still be standing today. I think people are way too impressed with their own societies and civilizations at times, and it makes them forget that no empire is eternal. Remember that Ethiopia awas once the greatest nation in the world. Rome, Egypt, Greece, Britain - they all fell. One day, America will too - at least in its current incarnation. Hopefully by then our way of life will transcend the boundaries of nationalism, but the fact is that no nation will ever last forever. What is eternal is conflict. So long as there are two or more people on earth in close enough proximity to talk to each other, there will be interpersonal conflict. And as long as nature exists, there will be plain and simple conflict. Tying this back into the thread, that can mean that civilizations apply their own ideals to conflict at first, but later, through experience ideals are replaced to a degree by results. Hence the remarkable similarities between the techniques of so many cultures. Technique as such is only different in the literature and descriptions. In application, truth rules. Whether a knight's "murder stroke" is the topic of the day, or the samurai practice of cutting down peasants without warning for brushing up against them, when you distill it down to its most basic parts, killing is killing and both were pretty efficient at it.

Oops typo=INVINCIBILITY Good points, I like your reasoning skills and logic. Now, I know why you are a Cop. Thats a compliment.

[Hardball]

Actually,
I'm not a cop. I'm a government security contractor and pro boxer. But thanks for the compliment.

By the way, I'm also starting a business based on the idea of holding "Adventure Vacations." These are scenarios that would let you step into a role as a spy, soldier, mobster, or anything else (pretty much) that you like and live out a real-time adventure. This thread has got me thinking about some martial arts-based adventures. Could be pretty cool...

Yea, I saw that in another forumn. I'll keep you in mind and let you know at a future date. I'm in Baltimore, Maryland. Where are you based?

[BoarSpear]

indulge me professor. Since you seem to know everything about everything, why don't you explain the parallels and the historical significances of these great tomes of literature.

Really. Go on, you started this, lets finish it in an intellegent and dignified manner, let's hear some outlines.

An intelligent and dignified manner? Lets take those one at a time. I believe we were having the intellectual discussion, until you showed up. Did I bait you? You bet your ass I did. Afterall someone was trying to have a discussion that required thought and an understanding of the martial arts. It was only a matter of time before the peanut gallery chimed in. I was a little suprised that I had to post it twice to get you to post back though. I figured it might alert you but nah...you werent paying attention to the warning signs. As for the dignified part, where the hell is the fun in that? However sonny you go out and study and once you've actually read these texts as opposed to reading the jacket, let me know. Why should I do your homework for you? It appears everyones been doing it for you already and look where that got you. Both feet in your mouth at once. Thats the drawback to the "ill kick ya in the neck..." in the real world youre gonna fall on your ass alot trying.

[BoarSpear]

I thought he was testing you...



I was right.



Is BoarSpear a Pentjaker?





THE SEVEN BOOKS ON THE ART OF WAR
BY NICCOLO MACHIAVELLI
CITIZEN AND SECRETARY OF FLORENCE
[1520]

http://www.constitution.org/mac/artofwar_.htm

Yeah, I couldnt help myself. I know its bad ettiquette to tease the monkeys at the zoo but its so much fun! I was expecting someone to point out the 7 books... And no, I'm NOT a pentjaker, I follow many paths, occasionally i try to point out where the footings a little shaky or where the better handholds are along the way, so to speak. and sometimes I leave a tree across the path with a message on it (Sun Bin reference for you Garland hint hint )

[Tant01]

Yeah, I couldnt help myself. I know its bad ettiquette to tease the monkeys at the zoo but its so much fun! I was expecting someone to point out the 7 books... And no, I'm NOT a pentjaker, I follow many paths, .....)

The way you "dropped it" was interesting, it went just the way you planned and when he tried to pick it up, just like you knew he would, you hook him with the nose ring and lead him straight into your trap. Just like silat...


It's just a theory of entrapment but it reminds me of another topic I recently posted about called weak counterpart position.

The ability to instill a sense of superiority in your attacker with (body) language or by pretense to trick him into overconfidence.

Right before you kill them.

[BoarSpear]

The way you "dropped it" was interesting, it went just the way you planned and when he tried to pick it up, just like you knew he would, you hook him with the nose ring and lead him straight into your trap. Just like silat...


It's just a theory of entrapment but it reminds me of another topic I recently posted about called weak counterpart position.

The ability to instill a sense of superiority in your attacker with (body) language or by pretense to trick him into overconfidence.

Right before you kill them.

yep , i like to get my practice in where i can I have found that being a redneck tai chi guy causes many to underestimate my/ overestimate thier ability. appear weak and inept...
I am trying to lead up to to the same point in the tai chi good self defense/ boarspear/jubaji comedy thread. with the enganyo in tai chi that no one picked up.
your hook n lead reference reminded me of a gem from silat "seek the tree"
i picked up from Burton Richardson in the early 90's.

[BoarSpear]

La Verdadera Destreza, the True Art.

a slight shift of direction, same time frame We find Destreza a spanish art, thats worth a look for comparison to the other sword styles of the era. this link describes the basic grips and blade positions.

http://www.plumes.org/destreza/theory/terminology/hand_blade.html

Not trying to 'challenge" any other styles just pointing out info.

[Hardball]

a slight shift of direction, same time frame We find Destreza a spanish art, thats worth a look for comparison to the other sword styles of the era. this link describes the basic grips and blade positions.

http://www.plumes.org/destreza/theory/terminology/hand_blade.html

Not trying to 'challenge" any other styles just pointing out info.

Thanks, gonna print it and read it. That's what I ask for; bibliographies.

[medic06]

The Europeans had this terrible weapon which decimated the Native American population before they even fired a shot. It's called smallpox.

No, not speaking of their (Indians) almost total demise, or the causes of it. They (the Indians), did pick up on guns and had learned how to shoot them well, even from moving horses.

I am not speaking of sheer numbers (which caucasians had increasing-or Gen Custer had to go against in one particular battle). I am speaking equal numbers. Or mono en mono.

See, this is what I was talking about. The moment I had posted Indians verses Cowboys, it is assumed that the Indians, being losers, were not battle efficient.

To compare one group of warriors as whom is better, can be chimircal. Each had unique qualifications to do battle in accordance to their environment and social order.

Remains me of some interesting facts and plunders of WWII.

[medic06]

I may be wrong since I'm not taking the time to look it up, but I remember reading somewhere that alot of the modern gymmastics events such as the pommel horse are descendant from knight's training.

Don't you figure the knights (and everyone else who fought as a profession) learned to stretch and such? I mean, the ancient greeks knew how, and even painted pictures of their exercise regimens on vases. Stands to reason that the knights of medieval Europe would have been privy to the same basic knowledge. Where the Japanese Samurai had meditation and ritual preparation, the knights had devotion to the Christian faith and prayer. Where the Japanese had dojos, the knights had guilds and training halls. When you look at it without the cultural bias of why each chose to do what they did, the warriors of all civilizations served the same purpose: Defending the political system and the beaurocracy, strengthening the economy, and perpetuating the social ideals and philosophies of those they serve. The tools they used were tools of force and persuasion, and I believe that any culture that stood the test of time long enough to be remembered employed very, very similar tactics.