Medival Knight VS Japanese Samauri (sp)

[medic06]

screw who's better trained, who'd win in a 1 on 1 sword duel, the samurai no doubt, who'd win on the battle field, the knights no doubt

I think many people would be really surprised at the outcome of some of these battles.

[Hardball]

The Europeans had this terrible weapon which decimated the Native American population before they even fired a shot. It's called smallpox.

Yea, that is folklore down in the outer banks north carolina but they talk like the smallpox infection was Unintentional. I believe it was too early in the history of warfare for the use of Biological or Germ Warfare.

[Hardball]

I may be wrong since I'm not taking the time to look it up, but I remember reading somewhere that alot of the modern gymmastics events such as the pommel horse are descendant from knight's training.

How could you have the nerve to make an undocumented statement in a thread full of references and bibliographies?

[BoarSpear]

screw who's better trained, who'd win in a 1 on 1 sword duel, the samurai no doubt, who'd win on the battle field, the knights no doubt

No doubt? which knights? a maile clad Norman w/ sword and kite shield from 1066? or an English or French chevalier of 1350 in partial plate with arming sword ready for a duel ? Or perhaps an Italian condottieri from 1450 resplendent in full regalia? although maybe a Teutonic knight of circa 1400 in a head-to-toe suit of articulated Gothic plate-armor and bastard sword is more what you had in mind. Will the samurai be wearing box-like Muromachi armor and armed with a tachi blade? Or will he wear the later close fitting Kamakura period do-maru armor and use the more familiar katana? hmm...maybe a little more research is in order before we assume the final outcome.

[medic06]

Yea, that is folklore down in the outer banks north carolina but they talk like the smallpox infection was Unintentional. I believe it was too early in the history of warfare for the use of Biological or Germ Warfare.

Well, the Monguls used to catapult the bodies of plague victims into cities they had under seige. I would say that's an early form of biological warfare. . .

[medic06]

How could you have the nerve to make an undocumented statement in a thread full of references and bibliographies?

Just lazy I guess. . .

[Hardball]

Well, the Monguls used to catapult the bodies of plague victims into cities they had under seige. I would say that's an early form of biological warfare. . .

If that is true, and I have no reason to believe you fabricated it--then I stand corrected. That would indeed be germ warfare. What century and what continent did the Monguls inhabit?

[BoarSpear]

Though few in number (approximately 200,000 people at the height of their empire), Under the leadership of Genghis Khan, the Mongols created the second largest empire in world history, ruling 13.8 million miles and more than 100 million people, nearly equal to the British Empire in land area. At its height, the Mongol Empire spanned from Korea to Hungary, and included most of the lands in between, such as Afghanistan, Georgia, Armenia, Russia, Persia, China, and much of the Middle East.
The term Mongol referring to the 12th and 13th century Mongol reign presumably included soldiers and generals in Middle East, China, Eastern and central Europe who all fought under the identity of being Mongols although not exclusively having a heritage in modern Mongolia. The name probably was very symbolic and powerful concept to those that pledged allegiance to the Mongol Empire, to Genghis Khan and his successor Great Khans, and to themselves. It was probably the genius of Genghis Khan to unify all these different people under one identity as a single and powerful fighting force with superb military strategy, dedication and mobility. The word Mongol should not be interpreted literally in historical perspective to many of those who identified themselves as being Mongols.

The Mongols themselves, in order to maintain their mobility, were lightly armored compared to many of the armies they faced. Their armor, for the most part, consisted of lacquered or boiled leather, which mainly covered the upper body. A helmet was also part of their accoutrement. Other types of armor, such as chain mail, did appear, but it was not as widespread among the Mongols due to the weight. The armament of the Mongols focused on the bow. This was a double recurve composite bow, made of layers of sinew, horn, and wood. Each warrior had more than one, probably attached, in a special quiver, to their saddles on each horse in addition to quivers of arrows. The bow itself possessed an incredible amount of penetrating power, often consisting of pull weights of over one hundred pounds. The Mongols used a wide variety of arrows, many with specialized purposes, such as armor piercing, blunt stun arrows, and even whistling arrows for signaling purposes. In addition, the soldiers carried sabres, maces, axes, and sometimes a short spear with a hook at the bottom of the blade. Other supplies, such as rope, rations, files for sharpening arrows, etc., were also carried. This made the soldiers of the Mongol army a self-sufficient unit able to function independently of supply lines. Thus, they were not hampered by a slow moving baggage train, allowing them to make the rapid marches that so characterized Mongol warfare.

Mongol cavalry soldiers were extremely light troops compared to contemporary standards, allowing them to practice tactics and false retreats that would be impractical for a heavier enemy (such as European knights). Mongols under Genghis Khan and his descendants were the perfection of light cavalry/horse archer warfare. One of the commonly used techniques of Mongol soldiers was the feinted retreat. In the middle of battle, a Mongol unit or whole army would retreat suddenly, giving the opposition false confidence. After that, the opposition would find itself surrounded by Mongol soldiers that would eventually shower them with arrows. Mongols didn't favor close combat but rather preferred to fight from a distance with their bows and long-practiced marksmanship from horses.

One of, if not the greatest, technological developments of the Mongolian's was their compound bow. The Mongolian compound bow was made of horn and sinew, and then coated in a waterproof lacquer. It had a draw weight between one hundred pounds and one hundred-fifty pounds. The range was about twice of what anything an opposing army could muster against them at two hundred fifty yards. The closest bow in medieval time was the English longbow, with half the draw weight and range, and about twice the size. Another medieval bow, the crossbow, took much longer to fire. The small size of the Mongolian bow not only allowed them to carry it on horseback, but to shoot in any direction while their horse galloped. When the bow was unstrung, it resembled three quarters of a circle, but strung it formed the classic shape of a bow, but with "ears" at the ends. When released, the bow could revert to its original shape, therefore launching the arrow a great distance. Not only did the Mongolian archers carry the best bows, but also the archers had a thumb ring that released the string much faster than the fingers could.

The medieval knights opposing the Mongols often wore heavy armor, which the Mongolian compound bow was capable of penetrating. When knights were struck by arrows which penetrated their armor, they were faced with the difficult task of removing the arrow embedded in their armor and their flesh. Removing the armor and/or arrow often exacerbated the wound. In contrast, many of the Mongolian soldiers wore silk shirts. When struck by an arrow, the silk would be carried into the wound by the arrow. Tugging gently on the silk around the arrow could free it with minimal additional wounding to the soldier. The Mongolian horses, unarmored themselves and carrying soldiers clad in light clothing had much more endurance than the horses ridden by the opposing medieval knights.

Technology was one of the important facets of his warfare. For instance siege machines were an important part of Genghis Khan's warfare especially in attacking fortified cities. He used Chinese technicians that were very advanced for the time. The siege engines were disassembled and were carried on horses to be rebuilt at the site of the battle.

Once the main battle and siege was over, the Mongol army would follow the enemy leader until he was killed in order to prevent him from being a rallying point for his army after war. Most times the enemy leaders would try to escape realizing that they would likely lose the war, but the Mongol forces followed until they made sure they died. Estimated fatalities from the Mongol campaigns are:

1200, Northern China — unknown
1215, Yanjing China (today Beijing) — unknown
1221, Nishapur, Persia — ~1.7 million killed in assault
1221, Merv, Persia — ~1.4 million killed in assault
1221, Meru Chahjan, Persia — ~1.3 million killed in assault
1221, Rayy, Persia — ~1.6 million killed in assault
1236, Bilär,Bulgar cities, Volga Bulgaria — 150,000 or more, nearly half of population
1237-1240, Kievan Rus' — half of population
1241, Battle of Legnica — defeat of a combined Polish-German force in Lower Silesia (Poland); the Mongols turn back to attend to the election of a new Grand Khan.
1258, Baghdad — ~800,000 people. Results in destruction of Abbasid dynasty

References
Weatherford, Jack. Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World, 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_advances_of_Genghis_Khan

[BoarSpear]

Awesome, Awesome reply, Boarspear! Thanks for the history lesson! I have always been a "fan" of both mongol and Hun battle tactics and history, and your reply was dead-on. I'm not sure if some of the analyses were your own or whether they came from the source you listed, but they're pretty incisive and, I believe, correct. Great research!

I took liberty's with a number of sources (copy/Paste) to best make the point.

[BoarSpear]

"Medieval Siege In the 14th and 15th centuries, little was known about how germs cause disease. But according to medieval medical lore, the stench of rotting bodies was known to transmit infections. So when corpses were used as ammunition, they were no doubt intended as biological weapons."

"Three cases are well-documented:"

"1340
Attackers hurled dead horses and other animals by catapult at the castle of Thun L'Eveque in Hainault, in what is now northern France. The defenders reported that "the stink and the air were so abominable...they could not long endure" and negotiated a truce."


"1346
As Tartars launched a siege of Caffa, a port on the Crimean peninsula in the Black Sea, they suffered an outbreak of plague. Before abandoning their attack, they sent the infected bodies of their comrades over the walls of the city. Fleeing residents carried the disease to Italy, furthering the second major epidemic of "Black Death" in Europe."

"1422
At Karlstein in Bohemia, attacking forces launched the decaying cadavers of men killed in battle over the castle walls. They also stockpiled animal manure in the hope of spreading illness. Yet the defense held fast, and the siege was abandoned after five months."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bioterror/hist_nf.html

These are all the early documented cases i can find... it is well possible the mongols did this as well, cant see them missing a trick...but i can find no documentation...anyone?

[Hardball]

1200, Northern China — unknown
1215, Yanjing China (today Beijing) — unknown
1221, Nishapur, Persia — ~1.7 million killed in assault
1221, Merv, Persia — ~1.4 million killed in assault
1221, Meru Chahjan, Persia — ~1.3 million killed in assault
1221, Rayy, Persia — ~1.6 million killed in assault
1236, Bilär,Bulgar cities, Volga Bulgaria — 150,000 or more, nearly half of population
1237-1240, Kievan Rus' — half of population
1241, Battle of Legnica — defeat of a combined Polish-German force in Lower Silesia (Poland); the Mongols turn back to attend to the election of a new Grand Khan.
1258, Baghdad — ~800,000 people. Results in destruction of Abbasid dynasty

References
Weatherford, Jack. Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World, 2004.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...f_Genghis_Khan

Outstanding post. Thanks a lot. Bowing Out.

[Hardball]

Hun battle tactics and history, and your reply was dead-on.

Now you got me wondering; I attended several seminars at the Hun School in New Jersey...............Is this a coincidence or Was Hun a famous scholar, general or warrior? Or are you talking about Atila the Hun?

[BoarSpear]

Yea, that is folklore down in the outer banks north carolina but they talk like the smallpox infection was Unintentional. I believe it was too early in the history of warfare for the use of Biological or Germ Warfare.

One infamous and well-documented case occurred in 1763 at Fort Pitt on the Pennsylvania frontier. British Gen. Jeffery Amherst ordered that blankets and handkerchiefs be taken from smallpox patients in the fort's infirmary and given to Delaware Indians at a peace-making parley.
Note in this case it was the british doing the deed.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bioterror/hist_nf.html

[Hardball]

One infamous and well-documented case occurred in 1763 at Fort Pitt on the Pennsylvania frontier. British Gen. Jeffery Amherst ordered that blankets and handkerchiefs be taken from smallpox patients in the fort's infirmary and given to Delaware Indians at a peace-making parley.
Note in this case it was the british doing the deed.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bioterror/hist_nf.html

Yea, those Britts are quite Spartan!!

[shadowkiller]

hardball, hey i can give you all the information you need but i only have one source. World History by A. Speilvogal, everything else is from my teacher's research.

Blend, yes it is true. The only thing modren about Aikido is it's recent rise in popularity. it was developed by a group of samurai who decided to follow the law set forth by the emperor of japan. while jiu jitsu also developed in about the same time period, Aikido was something taught only to samurai. the reson they share similar techniques is simple, the thechniques work. both parties realized this and intigrated them into the systems. as memtioned before the creators of aikido chose to follow the law, the ones who didn't develpoed weapons hidden in Bamboo or in their clothing. both parties of samurai preserved the arts of Iaido and Kenjitsu, while they chose different ways to approach it. you will also notice that in true Aikido schools there is extremely strict discipline, this was brought forth by the traditions of the samurai. if you take nothing out of what i have just posted, at least have the respect to never compair Aikido and Karate ever again.

Mullins

Not sure where your info came from but its wrong. Jui jitsu was developed a long time ago. Akido was developed from it, it was called aiki jui jitsu before the 40's. But I think morihei started the development of his unarmed fighting in the 20's. Its a very modern art in comparison to most other arts.