Running

[Tom Yum]

There are just as many studies that "prove" acupuncture is placebo. One of my coworkers is always putting them in my mailbox at work.

It could be a placebo, who knows?

Its hard to argue against one of the nations top cancer research centers and many others regularly use it and swear by it. But its just a personal choice; some people may not need it at all.

[Tom Yum]

Tree, I did suggest you start a thread on traditional Chinese medicines.

Keep in mind, folks here come from a wide variety of backgrounds and will scrutinize things from a common sense, scientific and pragmatic point of view.

You're going to have to come up with more convincing evidence to support your claims.

[treelizard]

There are just as many studies that "prove" acupuncture is placebo. One of my coworkers is always putting them in my mailbox at work.

Might I also point out that you did not say one should use acupuncture because it is proven to work, but because "certain athletes sware by it."

Your flip-flop views on Chinese herbs are also quite interesting...

[Tom Yum]

Then Tom said that acupuncture isn't bad, because he knows a lot of athletes who sware by it. Interesting. I know a lot of people who sware by homeopathy....

Next, Tom Yum, who not too long ago asked me to start a thread on Chinese herbs and all these other things he doesn't believe in, stated that he believes in acupuncture because "many athletes sware by it" (very scientific), said that people should cross reference homeopathy to proven modern medicine lest they make people's injuries worse. Hmmm. Since it's all placebo anyway, how could it make things worse? I wonder. But I guess taking someone with a wrist fracture to go play tai chi couldn't possibly ever make anything worse, could it? ....

You could have side tracked the entire argument by starting off with a respected or credible source

Accupuncture/pressure is proven as an effective treatment for pain relief, not only from minor sports injuries but also for those whom are undergoing chemotherapy treatments.

Accupuncture used to relieve pain from mild Sports Injuries

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_2003_July/ai_104259140

Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients July 2003. Kaufman, Steven J.

Accupuncture used to relieve pain related to chemotherapy treatment

http://www2.mdanderson.org/depts/oncolog/articles/06/3-mar/3-06-hc.html

"Research studies have shown acupuncture to be effective in treating the unpleasant side effects of cancer treatment. The 1997 National Institutes of Health (NIH) Consensus Development Conference concluded that scientific evidence validated acupuncture’s effectiveness in controlling chemotherapy-related nausea and vomiting."

"Western medicine has not yet completely explained why acupuncture works, though some studies suggest it may regulate the nervous system, using pain-killing endorphins and immune system cells, or may alter brain chemistry by changing the release of neurotransmitters and neurohormones. "

[Tom Yum]

Then Tom said that acupuncture isn't bad, because he knows a lot of athletes who sware by it. Interesting. I know a lot of people who sware by homeopathy....

Next, Tom Yum, who not too long ago asked me to start a thread on Chinese herbs and all these other things he doesn't believe in, stated that he believes in acupuncture because "many athletes sware by it" (very scientific), said that people should cross reference homeopathy to proven modern medicine lest they make people's injuries worse. Hmmm. Since it's all placebo anyway, how could it make things worse? I wonder. But I guess taking someone with a wrist fracture to go play tai chi couldn't possibly ever make anything worse, could it? ....

You could have side tracked the entire argument by starting off with a respected or credible source

Accupuncture/pressure is proven as an effective treatment for pain relief, not only from minor sports injuries but also for those whom are undergoing chemotherapy treatments.

Accupuncture used to relieve pain from mild Sports Injuries

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_2003_July/ai_104259140

Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients July 2003. Kaufman, Steven J.

Accupuncture used to relieve pain related to chemotherapy treatment

http://www2.mdanderson.org/depts/oncolog/articles/06/3-mar/3-06-hc.html

"Research studies have shown acupuncture to be effective in treating the unpleasant side effects of cancer treatment. The 1997 National Institutes of Health (NIH) Consensus Development Conference concluded that scientific evidence validated acupuncture’s effectiveness in controlling chemotherapy-related nausea and vomiting."

"Western medicine has not yet completely explained why acupuncture works, though some studies suggest it may regulate the nervous system, using pain-killing endorphins and immune system cells, or may alter brain chemistry by changing the release of neurotransmitters and neurohormones. "

My arguments supporting accupuncture come from real people and real studies from legitimate medical institutions, not just because I said so.

[treelizard]

To get back to our de facto training log, yesterday I hung out with some capoeristas and did some cartwheel (they have some weird name for it, au or something) practice and handstand practice and a lot of bike riding. Today was three 800m runs.

[treelizard]

Okay, this whole "debate" started when I mentioned that I'd had remarkable progress with my arm, WITHOUT ice, and you (who claim that people should use whatever works for them) got all offended, because you use ice.

I mentioned that I had no luck with ice but I did have luck with homeopathics. You said that surely I should use ice even though it didn't work, because it works for other people in medicine (even though many people, likely including your Tai Chi master who mysteriously and unscientifically healed Maxx's fractured wrist, do not use ice.) The idea that people should use ice because other people use ice is a logical fallacy referred to as the appeal to common practice. The idea that something is a common action does not make it the best action, especially if (as in my case) it doesn't work!

Then you did not like the idea that like cures like, because it sounded ridiculous. I suppose you do not believe in vaccines, either. They sound so funny. Injecting a poison into someone to build antibodies against the same disease. Ha ha ha ha.

Next, you go on to dismiss homeopathic principles by using a "slippery slope" example of people shooting their clients who have already been shot, as opposed to me taking potentized homeopathic remedies. You also made several straw man arguments that do not allude to homeopathy at all, but to your version of it (which is called isopathy, by the way.)

Then Tom said that acupuncture isn't bad, because he knows a lot of athletes who sware by it. Interesting. I know a lot of people who sware by homeopathy...

Next you said that using moderate heat on a burn (which I've used successfully on myself) doesn't work, and that people should use things that work. Okay...

Then you mentioned that doctors help a lot of people, so I listed statistics on iatrogenic deaths which show that doctors may very well kill as many people as they save (and if you don't think the numbers of people dying from iatrogenic deaths is a big deal--which these medical journals obviously do as they are writing about it--perhaps you don't think deaths from cancer and heart disease are a problem either. Your spinning numbers does not make the statistics any less egregious. You keep trying to say that more people die from medicine than homeopathy because more people use modern medicine (neglecting to mention that when you say more people are helped from modern medicine than from homeopathy--it couldn't have anything to do with the fact that more people use modern medicine), and yet I don't see homeopathy killing as many of its clients (percentage wise) as modern medicine does.

Again, I point out that your argument that people die from modern medicine because a lot of them use modern medicine makes me wonder whether you think a lot of people died from bloodletting and mercury pushing because a lot of them used modern medicine. Could it possibly have anything to do with the techniques that were used?

Next, you failed to read the article I posted on figures of iatrogenic deaths, and said it was written by people selling homeopathy, which it wasn't. In fact I even later posted similar numbers in a medical journal. You also guessed that the death numbers weren't counted, because only hospitals count deaths (another inaccuracy), even though the article clearly stated where the information was taken from.

Then you mentioned homeopathy saying that people should drink tea or abuse their organs instead of getting organ transplants. Another straw man argument. (You're beating me on logical fallacies here.) This in addition to the fact that tea is not a homeopathic remedy.

Next, Tom Yum, who not too long ago asked me to start a thread on Chinese herbs and all these other things he doesn't believe in, stated that he believes in acupuncture because "many athletes sware by it" (very scientific), said that people should cross reference homeopathy to proven modern medicine lest they make people's injuries worse. Hmmm. Since it's all placebo anyway, how could it make things worse? I wonder. But I guess taking someone with a wrist fracture to go play tai chi couldn't possibly ever make anything worse, could it?

Next, Maxx said that people should use science even when it doesn't work because people have been doing it for a long time (that logical fallacy is referred to as appeal to tradition). He said that I should use ice even though it doesn't work because it's been proven time and time again, even though his wrist was healed by a Tai Chi master who did not use traditional scientific remedies. He later goes on to say that other herbal and naturopathic remedies he has seen did not work. One would think that Maxx, swayed by his miraculous unscientific healing, would simply tell people to use what works for them, but he doesn't. I wonder if he thinks I should use ice even if it doesn't work. Good thing I don't do a survey of martial artists when trying to figure out how to treat an injury. Then I wouldn't get vaccines because the principles behind it are funny, I would use acupuncture only when other athletes sware by it, I would use ice even when it doesn't work instead of homeopathy when it does work, and if I break my wrist I would go to a Tai Chi master. Science, ey?

Next, Maxx stated that people die from mainstream medical care had uncurable diseases, and that they have a greater chance of dying than by not going to doctors. This is pure speculation, by the way. I asked why death tolls go up when doctors strike... no ideas there.

After that you said that my scientific evidence supporting homeopathy was one-sided. Interesting, because I even mentioned that science does not support homeopathy because they say the substances are too diluted to have any effect. I myself believed this for a long time, until I saw that these diluted substances were having an effect! I had lunch with a friend who is a science teacher yesterday, and I told her about getting rashes from taking the wrong dose of rhus tox back about five years ago. Later I found out that rhus tox is potentized poison ivy. We were talking about the placebo effect, and my question to her was, how would my body know what placebo effect to have if I didn't know what the remedy was supposed to do? I also asked her why placebo homeopathy would work when acupuncture (which I know I believe in) would not. She's open-minded and said, "Hmmm. Interesting!"

Next, you say that deaths decreasing when doctors are on strike do not necessarily correlate to the doctors being on strike. Interesting! I guess that people going to the hospital and not dying has nothing to do with the doctors there either then?

The information on doctor strikes...let's see, 93 deaths compared with 153, 133, and 139 in previous years in the same month... There seems to be a connection between doctor sanctions and fewer deaths. Again this has happened in Israel (three times), in Los Angeles, in the 70s in Canada, etc. etc. etc. You can pretend that there couldn't possibly be a correlation, if you want. It definitely made me stop and think, however, as one would expect death rates to go up during doctor strikes.

Did I ever say that people shouldn't use modern medicine? No! I said time and time again that people should use whatever they want and whatever works. I do think it's important to do research when you get diagnosed with something and prescribed mediciation. Find out what the side effects are and what the alternatives are in Western medicine, and whatever alternatives you care to explore. I know people that have prevented back surgery from chiropractic care, prevented invasive surgeries using herbalism, cured diseases using homeopathy, and even used vitamins to prevent having to take prescription meds. I also know people who do what their doctors say and use complementary medicine as an adjunct. Or you could just do whatever your doctor tells you. It doesn't matter to me.

[treelizard]

And nowhere on anyone's burial record will it ever say "Died as a result of failure to receive care due to doctor's strike." You can't tie the two occurrences to one another.

You're right. The statistics on mortality rates FALLING during doctor strikes in Israel, Canada, Columbia, Los Angeles and Holland (and rising again when the strike is over) do not point out how many people died as a result of failure to receive care during the strike. A high number of people dying as a result of lack of care would make the mortality rate going down during strikes even more suspicious.

This, coupled with the fact that iatrogenic deaths, according to prestigious medical journals, are at least the third and possibly the leading cause of death in this country (again, about the same as heart disease and cancer put together), really makes you go hmmmmmm.

[treelizard]

Interesting hypothesis, which indicates that you either didn't read the article or failed to comprehend it. Burial societies also keep records, not just hospitals.

You did not mention hops before this post. You mentioned nauseau from letting something ferment too long or just making a mixture too strong. That's called user error, and again is very different from a doctor prescribing the "right" medicine which ends up killing their patient.

Additionally, using hops tincture is called herbalism, not homeopathy. I'd venture the guess that you've never even used a homeopathic remedy, but then that would mean you've been spending all this time typing away about something you have no direct experience with and likely know nothing about...

[treelizard]

Homeopathy (yes, that's homeopathy--not me personally, but the primary principle of homeopathy) teaches the law of similars. This includes, but is not limited to, the use of fairly mild heat to treat burns and ice to treat frostbite. I posted a link with several hundred citations for studies related to homeopathy, which you are more than welcome to research. You are also free to write JAMA or the other prestigious medical journals I cited with your complaints about them not presenting the other side of the story. And I never said homeopathy was the only trick in town--I mentioned homeopathy, herbalism, acupuncture and Chinese medicine and chiropracty. Heck, people can even go to Tai Chi masters instead of doctors to fix their broken wrists for all I care. I could care less if people go to docs for serious conditions or not, it's a personal decision and was not even what I wrote about--I wrote about not using ice for injuries. And by the way, the article on iatrogenic deaths from JAMA and the second one I posted a link to-- they were written by doctors.

I'm also interested in hearing your adverse reactions to homeopathic medicine--somehow I wonder if you're making that up. And since you are neither a homeopathic doctor nor an herbalist, this isn't like you dying from taking the "right" drug prescribed by a doctor, but an adverse reaction based on user error (i.e. taking the wrong dosage or letting things ferment too long--which would not apply to homeopathic remedies if you've ever even used any, as you can't get anything other than 6C or 30C over the counter, and the capsules do not ferment).

If doctors save more people then they kill, why death rates go down when doctors go on strike? Still waiting for your explanation of that one.

[treelizard]

Here's another article on iatrogenic deaths with 152 footnotes:

http://whale.to/a/null9.html

ABSTRACT

A definitive review and close reading of medical peer-review journals, and government health statistics shows that American medicine frequently causes more harm than good. The number of people having in-hospital, adverse drug reactions (ADR) to prescribed medicine is 2.2 million.1 Dr. Richard Besser, of the CDC, in 1995, said the number of unnecessary antibiotics prescribed annually for viral infections was 20 million. Dr. Besser, in 2003, now refers to tens of millions of unnecessary antibiotics.2, 2a

The number of unnecessary medical and surgical procedures performed annually is 7.5 million.3 The number of people exposed to unnecessary hospitalization annually is 8.9 million.4 The total number of iatrogenic deaths shown in the following table is 783,936. It is evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the United States. The 2001 heart disease annual death rate is 699,697; the annual cancer death rate, 553,251.5

[treelizard]

First of all, homeopathy and herbal remedies (like the hops tincture you use, Mike) are two different things.

Second, the article on iatrogenic deaths--the second one I mentioned--is from a medical journal. http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/extract/284/4/483 and no I won't pay for you to download it. They also have an article in the JAMA saying that ~106,000 deaths occur from prescribed drugs each year. That's from the same medical journal.

Third, I'm interested in exactly which sources in the first article I linked to you are disputing--the veteran director of the burial society, the manager of the funeral parlor or the director of the medical organization?

If you're so interested in modern medicine and new advancements, why are you taking people with fractured wrists to Tai Chi witch doctors? Maybe you should take them to real doctors, before their symptoms get worse. I mean, the guy is relying on centuries old techniques and ideas. He probably doesn't administer antibiotics, so he's functioning with a severely limited toolbox. He probably doesn't even use ice for swelling.

[treelizard]

Wait, let me get this straight. If you have a tai chi master fix your wrist and you can't explain it, that's valid. If I use homeopathic arnica, rhus and ruta and it fixes my arm, that's invalid. What if I go to a tai chi master and they don't help me? Does that mean that it didn't actually work for you? Interesting science, there.

As far as iatrogenic deaths, according to the Journal American Medical Association (one of the largest and most respected medical journals in the world) Vol 284 July 26, 2000, the leading cause was from non-error, negative effects of drugs, followed by infections in hospitals, medication errors in hospitals and unnecessary surgeries. Most of the data was derived from studies in hospitalized patients.

I'm interested in hearing you explain why more people would die from HIV or cancer when doctors are on strike than would die from HIV or cancer when doctors are not on strike.

As far as saturated fat, you may want to look at Ron Rosedale's work (he's been treating insulin resistance since the early 90s and has shown that good oils and less carbs move blood lipids towards normal, normalize elevated triglycerides and low HDL cholesterol.) Also, Dr. Eades said in his blog that it doesn't matter how much saturated fat is consumed as long as carbs are kept under control. http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=299 Also if you look at Cordain's work analyzing hunter-gatherer diets, about 26% was from saturated fat (way higher than the recommended 10%) and yet they didn't die from all these modern diseases. Next, you may want to look at Ufe Ravnskov's work on the cholesterol myths which indicate that dietary cholesterol is not correlative OR causative re: heart disease: http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm More info about the Framingham study is available here: http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=292
More info ont he importance of saturated fat is on the Weston Price website.

[Maxx]

I never had a Tai Chi teacher. I was taken to a tai chi master who took a look at my wrist and was able to fix it. I can't explain it. I'll admit that. I will, however, say that of all of the experience I have with homeopathic medication and alternative methods of healing, that is the one time that I saw anything that actually worked.

Second, yes people die from seeking mainstream medical care. I wonder how many people in that study you are taling about had HIV or some form of cancer for which there is no known cure. I would estimate that there is probably a greater survival rate for those who go to mainstream medical practitioners than those who say, "Crap! I've got cancer... time to go see the snakeoil salesman down the street."

Now with regards to things like saturated fats and the like... certain fats which fall into the saturdated category such as MCTs are actually beneficial and are more readily used by the body for energy than glucose. Yes, those are good for you if you don't overdo it. Take in enough saturated fat though and you will begin to see negative effects such as clogged arteries and increases in blood pressure.

I find it difficult to believe that you can produce thousands and thousands of pages of substantiated evidence supporting what you say that would fly in the face of the mainstream view on such things... which, by the way is supported by thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of documentation supporting that same view.

[treelizard]

I'm sure everyone relying on mainstream medicine is very comforted in knowing that their chance of iatrogenic death is reduced when doctors are on strike.

You forgot to mention that water is bad for you... too much of that will kill you as well.

Yes, water only works when it's potentized to 30C.

Actually, if you're worried about your water, go to http://www.ewg.org/tapwater/yourwater/

And I can back up the information on grain, sleep, cholesterol, saturated fat, corn syrup, CLO, magnesium, zinc, vit C, cultured food, grassfed products and vit D scientifically.