William Cheung's Traditional Wing Chun

[Red Rum]

In March last year, a week after her birthday, my mother died suddenly and tragically of a massive stroke. I was the one who had to call the ambulance and hear my mum tell me how frightened she was to die as she was trollied out of the house.

Do you really want to continue with the mother jokes???

Do you really want tio carry on with the fat boy jokes?

[SmallThought]

You know..... i forgive your ignorant insult; you can't help being you. The ten years of extra life experience i have makes me pity your poor predicament.

I truely hope that one day you are mature enough to see the error of your current actions. You may well look back and think how lucky you really were today.

Good luck with your training.
Peace out!

[SmallThought]

Well I'm certainly not gay - I've done his mum to prove it

In March last year, a week after her birthday, my mother died suddenly and tragically of a massive stroke. I was the one who had to call the ambulance and hear my mum tell me how frightened she was to die as she was trollied out of the house.

Do you really want to continue with the mother jokes???

[Red Rum]

Well I'm certainly not gay - I've done his mum to prove it

[Thai Bri]

No!!!! Not the old "I've done your mum" type stuff. Next you'll be calling each other gay or something.

[Red Rum]

You poor deluded soul....

Training for over 20 years... so you started at 5 years old??? And still a fat bastard!??!
Crap..... if i were in your shoes i'd be reassessing myself and my training..

yes I started when I was 5. What's wrong with that?
And no I haven't always been fat.
I have been completely toned, skinny, muscly and yes fat in my lifetime

I'm not going to waste time &/or money coming to the UK for a fat arse like yourself... or anyone, for that matter..... but feel free to drop over to Australia; i can even arrange accomodation for you.

Can I stay with your mum? I hear she likes fat guys....

[SmallThought]

You poor deluded soul....

Training for over 20 years... so you started at 5 years old??? And still a fat bastard!??!
Crap..... if i were in your shoes i'd be reassessing myself and my training.

I'm not going to waste time &/or money coming to the UK for a fat arse like yourself... or anyone, for that matter..... but feel free to drop over to Australia; i can even arrange accomodation for you.

[Red Rum]

Look mate, i'm sorry about the moron crack. However, taking individual phrases from my/anyones posts out of context and with no consideration to the rest of the post, then responding to them in an agressive/insulting manner, is neither relevent, interesting nor intelligent.!

don't waste your time or mine, fat boy, just go eat another doughnut; 'cause i couldn't care less what you have to say!

Hmmm..... Pot - this is the kettle....

If you took the time to actually read what i wrote, you would see that i have stated a number of times that you are welcome to your opinion of the man him self. The exception i take with your attitude (other than the irrelevent and out of context responses designed purely to give you a footing for an unwarranted attack), is that you continuously degrade not only my martial system, but any one who trains it. In doing such, you are actually no better than William Cheung himself.

I haven't insulted your system - I insulted Cheungs system. If you are fool enough to train under Cheung then that's your problem

Actually, considering my arguments; phrased neither aggressively nor derrogatorily until now; you would realise that I carried no slight what so ever to any other system of Kung Fu. In fact i have stated many times that training any system of kung fu or other martial arts provides numerous benefits to the practitioner. !

Don't care whether you insult other systems of kung fu. I was discussing Cheungs system, which is cr*p

In regard to your claims of having beaten many Traditional Wing Chun fighters to a pulp ; i severely doubt you have fought any Wing Chun fighter possessing any understanding of the system or it's application. Every martial art system is full of people who think merely practicing a bunch of movements a few times a week qualifies them as a martial artist/fighter. If your claims are not complete fabrications, i strongly suspect it would be representatives of this contingent that you have faced.

I have trained wing chun pretty much every day for numerous years. In total I have trained martial arts for well over two decades, but still have stuff to learn. But not from Cheung and not from you.
Don't care whether you don't believe me. The people I have beaten know who they are and they now do other arts, because they realised that Cheung was always talking a pile of pants

Now, if so many people have said your kung fu is that bad, as you stated in a previous post, maybe it is YOU who should be listening to them and refraining from teaching any body anything.... if in fact that claim is not also a complete fabrication. .

Personally, i have never had the experience of any body telling me my kung fu is bad; not anyone who has seen me train or fight, at any rate. As i tell other "wing chun" people who insist on telling me i've wasted my years training, beyond all reasonable discussion, because their seniors have told them that Cheungs system is crap..... i'll believe you when you beat me. You have no logical argument at all, your sole basis being "heaps of people say Cheung and his system are crap". !

So many people can't be wrong...
And no-one has said your kung fu is bad? No instructors? No senior students?
Sounds like the carrot to me. You need a stick.
The fact that you put 'wing chun' people into quotations says a lot about you.
You'll believe me when I beat you? Hahahahaha. Get your candy ass down here and I'll hand it back to you, little punk
Nothing I would like more than videotaping you getting bitch slapped. I'm sure Thai Bri would love it. It'd be like Bosteppi/Cheung all over again

I joined these Wing Chun threads because i thought it would be interesting to lend some aid to you, yourself, in explaining and discussing Wing Chun with others who didn't understand it, as you seemed to be having difficulty explaining the verticle punch v hook argument. Needless to say i have been hugely disappointed by your behaviour. It is for this reason only that i choose to ignor you or respond only with derission.!

Lend some aid to me??? I can see that Cheungs ego has rubbed off on you

To conclude, the world is full of people like GrandMaster Cheung, who continually put other people down in an effort to make themselves look/feel better about themselves. What they don't realise is that they make themselves look ignorant and foolish in the process. Do yourself a favour, RedRum, don't continue to be one of them all your life.

I only put those people down who need putting down. Like yourself.

[SmallThought]

Hahaha. My last post was obviously too much for you.

I have posted relevant and interesting answers to your posts, but you seem incapable of stringing any argument together

You obviously don't like Cheung being called an idiot and bad fighter, but maybe you should look around. Half the wing chun community think he's a joke

It's a no wonder that wing chun is always so heavily criticized with pricks like you on the forum

Look mate, i'm sorry about the moron crack. However, taking individual phrases from my/anyones posts out of context and with no consideration to the rest of the post, then responding to them in an agressive/insulting manner, is neither relevent, interesting nor intelligent.

If you took the time to actually read what i wrote, you would see that i have stated a number of times that you are welcome to your opinion of the man him self. The exception i take with your attitude (other than the irrelevent and out of context responses designed purely to give you a footing for an unwarranted attack), is that you continuously degrade not only my martial system, but any one who trains it. In doing such, you are actually no better than William Cheung himself.

Actually, considering my arguments; phrased neither aggressively nor derrogatorily until now; you would realise that I carried no slight what so ever to any other system of Kung Fu. In fact i have stated many times that training any system of kung fu or other martial arts provides numerous benefits to the practitioner.

In regard to your claims of having beaten many Traditional Wing Chun fighters to a pulp ; i severely doubt you have fought any Wing Chun fighter possessing any understanding of the system or it's application. Every martial art system is full of people who think merely practicing a bunch of movements a few times a week qualifies them as a martial artist/fighter. If your claims are not complete fabrications, i strongly suspect it would be representatives of this contingent that you have faced.

Now, if so many people have said your kung fu is that bad, as you stated in a previous post, maybe it is YOU who should be listening to them and refraining from teaching any body anything.... if in fact that claim is not also a complete fabrication. Personally, i have never had the experience of any body telling me my kung fu is bad; not anyone who has seen me train or fight, at any rate. As i tell other "wing chun" people who insist on telling me i've wasted my years training, beyond all reasonable discussion, because their seniors have told them that Cheungs system is crap..... i'll believe you when you beat me. You have no logical argument at all, your sole basis being "heaps of people say Cheung and his system are crap".

I joined these Wing Chun threads because i thought it would be interesting to lend some aid to you, yourself, in explaining and discussing Wing Chun with others who didn't understand it, as you seemed to be having difficulty explaining the verticle punch v hook argument. Needless to say i have been hugely disappointed by your behaviour. It is for this reason only that i choose to ignor you or respond only with derission.

To conclude, the world is full of people like GrandMaster Cheung, who continually put other people down in an effort to make themselves look/feel better about themselves. What they don't realise is that they make themselves look ignorant and foolish in the process. Do yourself a favour, RedRum, don't continue to be one of them all your life.

Oh, and if you want to claim that i can't string an argument together, maybe you should learn to read. If you decide to retaliate with another insulting post; don't waste your time or mine, fat boy, just go eat another doughnut; 'cause i couldn't care less what you have to say!

[Red Rum]

Now that i'm sure you're a brain dead moron, i can ignor your coments. Until now, i was hoping you might be worth having a reasonable and respectful discussion with. It's now obvious you're a waste of my time and effort.
25 stone of moron!

Good luck with your training.... you'll need it.

Hahaha. My last post was obviously too much for you.

I have posted relevant and interesting answers to your posts, but you seem incapable of stringing any argument together

You obviously don't like Cheung being called an idiot and bad fighter, but maybe you should look around. Half the wing chun community think he's a joke

It's a no wonder that wing chun is always so heavily criticized with pricks like you on the forum

[SmallThought]

Now that i'm sure you're a brain dead moron, i can ignor your coments. Until now, i was hoping you might be worth having a reasonable and respectful discussion with. It's now obvious you're a waste of my time and effort.
25 stone of moron!

Good luck with your training.... you'll need it.

[Red Rum]

If a whole group of people who you had trained with and knew you could defeat persisted in telling the world that your technique and ability were useless, wouldn't you offer them the right to prove that in the traditional way? Due the attitude displayed in your posts, i believe you would throw down the gauntlet to such behaviour..

No I wouldn't. And neither would most wing chunners. If someone in my class made a challenge I would speak to them (beat the crap out of them) afterwards. But I wouldn't post ads for challenges in magazines or on forums etc, because someone had bad mouthed us.

If I challenged everyone who had criticized me or my martial arts, that would mean I would have to fight every member on this forum!!! Where would that lead? Disputes are good and productive. If numerous people were saying that my martial arts was rubbish, there might be something in it!

Cheungs problem is that he claimed he was the best in the world at wing chun and the only one who knew the true wing chun. That is why most people either laugh at him or depsise him or both

You would have seen this guy in Jacky Chan & Jet Li movies. He was inducted into the Martial Arts Hall of Fame (USA), as was my Sifu (Australian). He has also trained USA military personell. As for the UFC, is that your basis for a good fighter or system? Are you saying that no intructor or system is good unless they compete in the UFC??? .

Well you are judging how good a fighter is by whether they have been in Jet Li or Jackie Chan movies!!!!
I think I would go with the UFC fighter than a stuntman!!!
My Sifu has been inducted into several martial art halls of fame, but he doesn't exactly boast about it

The man in question (who shall remain nameless due to the fact he wouldn't appreciate being discussed on an internet forum) actually applied for the UFC a couple of times that i know about. They refused his application. How do i know this??? He told me, unprompted. I was in the training hall early one day and he came in laughing, saying, "you'll like this: i got a letter back from UFC denying my entry... again!!!" Then we worked on some kicking and my Chum Kil before the first class of the day.
At the time we were quite close as he liked my training ethic and used me as his stunt fighter in the show reel he sent to Sammo & JC..

Not too sure what you are trying to say here. Your friend was so good, he was denied entry into the UFC..?

During the time i was training full time (95, 96, 97), there were no representitives of (Cheungs) Traditional Wing Chun in the UK. There were no schools, no students came to train at the World Headquarters and Cheung did not include UK in his World Training circuit. According to his web site, there are still no schools or representitives in the UK. If you have fought someone in the UK who claims to be fighting with Traditional Wing Chun, they must have learned it from videos &/or books, in which case i will agree with you.... their kung fu was crap. Maybe they learned "Traditional Wing Chun", but it wasn't the Cheung system..

Yes because none of his Australian students would ever set foot in the UK?
Are you an idiot? Two of my students have emigrated to Australia and train under a Sifu over there now. Just because Kamon doesn't have any schools in Australia, it doesn't mean that any Australians could ever meet a Kamon student/instructor. One of the guys who trains in another wing chun fed over here now, trained under Cheung for over 20 years, and he regrets it now that he has seen other martial art systems.

Allow me to make this perfectly clear: i don't care if you attack the man for the man he is if you know him, but attacking the kung fu based on such limited exposure is an ignorant behaviour; and in such, you are no better than he. I usually have nothing bad to say about any system of martial arts, as they offer those that practice them many benefits beyond the martial aspect (and no, UFC is not a test of martial ability..... there are none today except traditional challenge matches conducted in a fair and respectful manner). However, when people start bagging out the system i have trained in, which i know to be effective from personal experience, after demonstrating virtual ignorance of that system; it tends to call in to question that persons attitude to training and that of their school. .

I'm attacking the man's personality, his teaching style (which I have seen on Youtube, read in books, heard first hand from both his students and members of internet forums) and his fighting ability.

In this day and age if you claim to be the best - go into UFC and prove it
Too many fighters say that the UFC is no proving ground for fighting. It most certainly is. I have fought bare knuckle fights, various MMA tournaments, but the UFC is another level. The guys there are the best in the world

I am definately not good enough to get in that cage against those kind of guys. But if Cheung claims to be the best, he should get in that cage and prove it. Simple

[SmallThought]

teh Last Post

The fact that he offered challenge matches to contempories from his kwoon has lowered my opinion of Cheung even more

If a whole group of people who you had trained with and knew you could defeat persisted in telling the world that your technique and ability were useless, wouldn't you offer them the right to prove that in the traditional way? Due the attitude displayed in your posts, i believe you would throw down the gauntlet to such behaviour.

At the height of my training there were 5 of his students who i wouldn't fight due to respect for their abilities &/or seniority. As i'm now rusty and unfit, that list would encompass most of his students, so as to avoid personal humiliation (or possibly injury). My own opinion of the man himself may not be that high due to his lack of humility, however I maintain that his fighting method is effective and he is a very effective instructor.

Then why have we never heard of him? If he was that good, he would have cropped up somewhere in the UFC?

You would have seen this guy in Jacky Chan & Jet Li movies. He was inducted into the Martial Arts Hall of Fame (USA), as was my Sifu (Australian). He has also trained USA military personell. As for the UFC, is that your basis for a good fighter or system? Are you saying that no intructor or system is good unless they compete in the UFC??? The man in question (who shall remain nameless due to the fact he wouldn't appreciate being discussed on an internet forum) actually applied for the UFC a couple of times that i know about. They refused his application. How do i know this??? He told me, unprompted. I was in the training hall early one day and he came in laughing, saying, "you'll like this: i got a letter back from UFC denying my entry... again!!!" Then we worked on some kicking and my Chum Kil before the first class of the day.
At the time we were quite close as he liked my training ethic and used me as his stunt fighter in the show reel he sent to Sammo & JC.

Similarly there are a lot of classes in the UK where I could do the same to the instructor. Epsecially Cheungs lot.

During the time i was training full time (95, 96, 97), there were no representitives of (Cheungs) Traditional Wing Chun in the UK. There were no schools, no students came to train at the World Headquarters and Cheung did not include UK in his World Training circuit. According to his web site, there are still no schools or representitives in the UK. If you have fought someone in the UK who claims to be fighting with Traditional Wing Chun, they must have learned it from videos &/or books, in which case i will agree with you.... their kung fu was crap. Maybe they learned "Traditional Wing Chun", but it wasn't the Cheung system.

Allow me to make this perfectly clear: i don't care if you attack the man for the man he is if you know him, but attacking the kung fu based on such limited exposure is an ignorant behaviour; and in such, you are no better than he. I usually have nothing bad to say about any system of martial arts, as they offer those that practice them many benefits beyond the martial aspect (and no, UFC is not a test of martial ability..... there are none today except traditional challenge matches conducted in a fair and respectful manner). However, when people start bagging out the system i have trained in, which i know to be effective from personal experience, after demonstrating virtual ignorance of that system; it tends to call in to question that persons attitude to training and that of their school.

Good luck with your training.
Peace out.

PS: I apologise if it has seemed at any stage as though i have been degrading the system you train. My sole intention was to support my own system. Peace.

[Tom Yum]

Clip with William Hung and his Hung Jury

http://youtube.com/watch?v=507tQFVKpsg

God bless him. Gotta love Will.

[Red Rum]

Errr... you, obviously.
.

Not at all. These were guys who came into our gym and tried to take on my friend. As I said I would never be so rude as to enter someone elses school and kick the cr*p out of them. Unless if they threatened my family etc

Respectful martial artists (and those that take themselves and their art seriously) do not post open challenges on websites. Traditionally, a challenge should be issued formally through a personal introduction or a respectful request for a given date time and place. Cheung didn't actually issue an open challenge, he stated that he would accept any challenges from the contemporaries of his kwoon..

In those words, people he thought he could beat.
I was under the impression that Cheung was a loud mouth but never officially challenged anyone, but ThaiBri knows his stuff.
The fact that he offered challenge matches to contempories from his kwoon has lowered my opinion of Cheung even more

I know of one of Cheung's students who travelled extensively doing just that. He spent time observing different systems and fighting respectful challenge matches with their best fighters. .

Then why have we never heard of him? If he was that good, he would have cropped up somewhere in the UFC?

Here's an idea. If you are so confident in your ability to beat all others "to a pulp", why don't you spend some time travelling and challenging other fighters???.

I play around with my training partners who train other styles and some of them have less skill than me some have more.
As I stated, to go into someone's school and challenge them is about the rudest thing you can do. There are better fighters than me out there and they could easily come to my school and put me on my ass in front of my students. Similarly there are a lot of classes in the UK where I could do the same to the instructor. Epsecially Cheungs lot.

I'm really beginning to find these Wing Chun/Cheung bashing discussions tiresome.
.

Don't mention Cheung then!! If you post something about Cheung, people will inevitably reply with their experience and in Cheung's case it is mostly bad. You have seen at least five people on this thread alone saying how cr*p Cheung is - it might give you a clue