Why are traditional martial arts seen as "ineffective"?

[Nothingness]

Deleted

[darrianation]

Fake? there are commecialised NCK out there as there are traditional one. In fact if you try looking up the net there is little information about NCK although NCK was the roots of many Japanese MA like shotokan, goju ryu, kyokoshin & many others. NCK also left many blueprint for many southeast asian ma both in hand & weapon techniques.

"One punch one kill" one explosive attack, simplicity with effectiveness thats` what NCK is all about.

In fact, my alma mater club got into a clash with wushu during the early 80`s & the argument was almost just like what you are pointing out. My late master didn`t want to have anything to do with modern wu shu becuase he believe that is not true martial art. Wu shu wanted to establishe a base & they want to use my master`s school as a jumping point.

Wu shu, I would say won in that conflict becuase it was more appealing in forms & exhibition performances than what NCK was offering. In fact sadly, many of my classmates & students defected to wu shu.

In our NCK it was more about life`s philosophy that include remembering, respecting & paying homage to our ancestors espacially the founders of the art. But as far as training is concern, the reason I believe that it will take years to be a true great fighter is because of what I have witness in my late master Lo King Hui & his teaching that learning to fight is easy it is becoming a master that is difficult.

In fact it took my only 2 years of hard training to win a national MMA championship tournament in the Philippines. But does that make me a great fighter? or a master?

Things that need to be develop are:strong foot work, hip power, shoulder power, arm & fist power all these should result in speed with explosive power. This mean constant punching & kicking of the bag, constant forearm smashing, constant "makiwara" punching, constant post & bag kicking.

Then after all that, strengthening of the neck, peckmuscle area, stomach, thighs & shin. Then simple "chin na" training.

Then there`s the weapons, many will argue that weapons are obselete. Yes, it is in term of modern warfare but not as a way of muscle conditioning, strengthening & application to street fighting, espacially the short weapons like chains, sai & kwai. Also, our weapons are not like wu shu weapons that are made of tin & flexible wood easy to weild, ours are made of realistic iron & hard steel as well as hard wood. Thsi quality of weapons required constant training to weold it with precision.

Ever seen a coconut chopper man with a machete? see how accurate he chop that coconut shell with one strike, he didn`t learn it in a short time.

My acheivments is not even half of all that.

Anyway, I`m not trying to sell NCK to you but I just want to point out that NCK is different from the mainstream kung fu that you have expereince.

I guess the bottom line is, are you statisfied with where you are now? if you are then you should happy & content, we can`t change the whole world just like my late master cannot stop wu shu from taking over the kung fu world.

We do not have master’s just deadly experts.

I often say there are no such things as masters, just experts. The term master however is appropriate when used to pay respect to a very knowledgeable, dedicated person within his field.

Distinguishing a master/expert from a fighter. A fighter is mentally, psychologically, and physically capable to fight/defend him/her self. He knows all the techniques of the curriculum, and he knows all the principles of tactical awareness, avoidance, escape and evasion, de-escalation, and actual physical combat.

An expert/master is a more honorary designation of respect. An expert/master has nothing to do with fighting ability or knowledge of techniques but advanced academic knowledge of: Sport and exercise science, modern coaching/teaching principle, Physics, biology, psychology, kinesiology, criminal science, sociology, threat assessment, security procedures, and counter terrorism.

A master/expert also has real world experience. He knows what fear is because he’s experienced it. He has had technique, strategy, and tactical failures and successes in real combat. He has been around the block enough times to know when to run and when to fight. He knows the best solutions to any tactical problems are usually the simplest.

An example in my eyes of a true master-

I was fortunate enough to be able to train at the American Pistol Institute While Jeff Cooper was still there. Mr. Cooper is a WWII and Korean War veteran and a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the US Marines. He is widely recognized as the father of modern combat pistol shooting. His other claim to fame is his knowledge and insight into the combat mindset.

He wrote the widely renowned book To Ride, to Shoot Straight and Speak the Truth. Which is a bible to many in the combatives world. His knowledge and insight of how to survive in these violent and chaotic times is rarity. I respect him as a true American hero as well as master of combat knowledge. He has all the true ingredience to be a true master.

You say about NCK "One punch one kill" one explosive attack, simplicity with effectiveness” that’s what NCK is all about. Since I am not qualified to talk about NCK I cannot comment on NCK, so I’ll talk about karate, which shares some of these same principles.

Karate has some good things going for it.

1) The techniques and movements are simple and gross motor orientated
2) It is straightforward and direct
3) Good philosophies and theories
4) Good physical conditioning
5) Good cultural experience (in some schools)
6) Spiritualism (if you like that stuff)
7) Character building
8) Socializing

* Note- 5-8 has nothing to do with fighting ability

The bad things

1) Dead drills- lacks spontaneity, dynamics, and unpredictability

2) Pre-arranged drills- lacks spontaneity, dynamics, and unpredictability

3) Predictable, cooperative drills- lacks spontaneity, dynamics, and unpredictability

4) Kata- Does nothing to improve fighting ability, takes time away from other more important training modalities, and develops incorrect neuro-muscle memory

5) Light/limited contact sparring- does not develops toughness or getting used to being hit and develops incorrect neuro-muscle memory

6) Cocking the punches at the waist- Not done in real fighting, develops incorrect neuro-muscle memory

7) Holding techniques out- Gets you in big trouble in real fighting, develops incorrect neuro-muscle memory

8) Punching/kicking into thin air- Does nothing to improve fighting ability, and takes time away from more important training modalities

9) Lack of combat psychology training and mindset

10) Lack of reality

Being trained in this way can lead to a false sense of security and does not prepare the students for the realities of combat such the brutalness, unpredictability, facing/using weapons and fear/adrenaline.
Karate in my eyes is good for children and older adults but not for those who are truly seeking self-defense.

[konghan]

We do not have master’s just deadly experts.

I often say there are no such things as masters, just experts. The term master however is appropriate when used to pay respect to a very knowledgeable, dedicated person within his field.

Distinguishing a master/expert from a fighter. A fighter is mentally, psychologically, and physically capable to fight/defend him/her self. He knows all the techniques of the curriculum, and he knows all the principles of tactical awareness, avoidance, escape and evasion, de-escalation, and actual physical combat.

An expert/master is a more honorary designation of respect. An expert/master has nothing to do with fighting ability or knowledge of techniques but advanced academic knowledge of: Sport and exercise science, modern coaching/teaching principle, Physics, biology, psychology, kinesiology, criminal science, sociology, threat assessment, security procedures, and counter terrorism.

A master/expert also has real world experience. He knows what fear is because he’s experienced it. He has had technique, strategy, and tactical failures and successes in real combat. He has been around the block enough times to know when to run and when to fight. He knows the best solutions to any tactical problems are usually the simplest.

An example in my eyes of a true master-

I was fortunate enough to be able to train at the American Pistol Institute While Jeff Cooper was still there. Mr. Cooper is a WWII and Korean War veteran and a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the US Marines. He is widely recognized as the father of modern combat pistol shooting. His other claim to fame is his knowledge and insight into the combat mindset.

He wrote the widely renowned book To Ride, to Shoot Straight and Speak the Truth. Which is a bible to many in the combatives world. His knowledge and insight of how to survive in these violent and chaotic times is rarity. I respect him as a true American hero as well as master of combat knowledge. He has all the true ingredience to be a true master.

You say about NCK "One punch one kill" one explosive attack, simplicity with effectiveness” that’s what NCK is all about. Since I am not qualified to talk about NCK I cannot comment on NCK, so I’ll talk about karate, which shares some of these same principles.

Karate has some good things going for it.

1) The techniques and movements are simple and gross motor orientated
2) It is straightforward and direct
3) Good philosophies and theories
4) Good physical conditioning
5) Good cultural experience (in some schools)
6) Spiritualism (if you like that stuff)
7) Character building
8) Socializing

* Note- 5-8 has nothing to do with fighting ability

The bad things

1) Dead drills- lacks spontaneity, dynamics, and unpredictability

2) Pre-arranged drills- lacks spontaneity, dynamics, and unpredictability

3) Predictable, cooperative drills- lacks spontaneity, dynamics, and unpredictability

4) Kata- Does nothing to improve fighting ability, takes time away from other more important training modalities, and develops incorrect neuro-muscle memory

5) Light/limited contact sparring- does not develops toughness or getting used to being hit and develops incorrect neuro-muscle memory

6) Cocking the punches at the waist- Not done in real fighting, develops incorrect neuro-muscle memory

7) Holding techniques out- Gets you in big trouble in real fighting, develops incorrect neuro-muscle memory

8) Punching/kicking into thin air- Does nothing to improve fighting ability, and takes time away from more important training modalities

9) Lack of combat psychology training and mindset

10) Lack of reality

Being trained in this way can lead to a false sense of security and does not prepare the students for the realities of combat such the brutalness, unpredictability, facing/using weapons and fear/adrenaline.
Karate in my eyes is good for children and older adults but not for those who are truly seeking self-defense.

If karate is that bad then why the Japanese tend to be better hand to hand fighters than western soldiers? and why do early GI Joe bother to learn from them? before WWII american hand to hand fighting training was about boxing.

All I can say is, I am satisfied with what I have learn in TMA as part of my ancestors heritage & culture just like many westerners are satified with their own tradition & heritage of quick gun slingers as part of their culture.

And I will continue to pursue & propagate the art of ngo cho kun in its original form in the modern world because I know it works.

I just like to touch on the coaches & master thing. I guess in the west a coach like an NBA, NFL, NHL or MLB coaches doesn`t necessasarily mean those great coaches can actually play the game but its their understanding of the game that what make them great. Master on the other hand are more people with both coaching abilities plus actual physical abilities to execute their filed of sports.

That`s why when one talk about a martial master people expect somebody who can perform or have some good or special physical abilities aside from coaching.

In China a coach is totally different from a master. A master as you have pointed out is endowed with knowledge & wisdom but what you are missing is they also have great martial expereinces.

[darrianation]

If karate is that bad then why the Japanese tend to be better hand to hand fighters than western soldiers? and why do early GI Joe bother to learn from them? before WWII american hand to hand fighting training was about boxing.

All I can say is, I am satisfied with what I have learn in TMA as part of my ancestors heritage & culture just like many westerners are satified with their own tradition & heritage of quick gun slingers as part of their culture.

And I will continue to pursue & propagate the art of ngo cho kun in its original form in the modern world because I know it works.

I just like to touch on the coaches & master thing. I guess in the west a coach like an NBA, NFL, NHL or MLB coaches doesn`t necessasarily mean those great coaches can actually play the game but its their understanding of the game that what make them great. Master on the other hand are more people with both coaching abilities plus actual physical abilities to execute their filed of sports.

That`s why when one talk about a martial master people expect somebody who can perform or have some good or special physical abilities aside from coaching.

In China a coach is totally different from a master. A master as you have pointed out is endowed with knowledge & wisdom but what you are missing is they also have great martial expereinces.

H2H In the American military has never been a high priority. And historically it has had lack of consistency and even those who received the training it was still up to them to practice and retain on their own. Boxing still heavily influences the US Marine corps H2H, and I think theirs is the best H2H of the various branches.

Civilian H2H or combatives is better than what the military gets. The military relies on their firearms, their buddies, and their best weapon- their radio.

I have no doubt you are dedicated and committed to you martial art; there is nothing wrong with that. I have no doubt that you can defend your self.

When people start talking about self-defense and the TMAs they get saying some pretty ridiculous things (I am not referring to you directly). They make things sound more complicated then it really is; I think the TMAs have a lot to do with it.

You need good sound scientific principles of training but actual self-defense isn't rocket science.

[darrianation]

I guess the bottom line is, are you statisfied with where you are now? if you are then you should happy & content, we can`t change the whole world just like my late master cannot stop wu shu from taking over the kung fu world.

I am very satisfied with my techniques and my self-defense curriculum. I am both satisfied and competent in my tactical/functional knowledge of striking (which I take predominately from Muay Thai and boxing); my grappling is adequate, and I am very satisfied with my weapons skills/abilities- Tactical shooting, knife, and stick fighting. I am also in fairly good combat shape for my age and having two bad knees. I have good tactical assessment skills, knowledgable in security proceedures, good awareness and avoidance skills, good communication and de-escalation skills.

I am also very confident in my real word experiences, in the ring and tournament fighting (including wrestling, Karate, Muay Thai, Boxing, MMA and NHB), in street fighting (self-defense), as a paramedic who has had to physically restrain many drugged out crazed patients (Baltimore, Washington DC, Denver, and Phoenix), in combat (military action), and as a professional bodyguard.

However I thirst for more knowledge especially in criminal science as it relates to violent criminal assaults, and behavioral psychology. But my number one pre-occupation (right now) is on learning and better understanding of the scientific principles of physical training. I have a bachelor’s degree in sport science with a dual emphasis- physical education and coaching. I would like to get my masters in sport psychology, but between my student loans and my wife’s (she has 2 bachelors degree Chemistry, and psychology) we still owe 75,000 dollars and I am afraid to add to that. So I don’t know if or when I’ll get a chance to get my masters. So my interests right now are more in the academic arena, however this is all a means to becoming a better teacher/instructor of efficient and effective self-defense.

Well that’s me pretty much in a nutshell.

[Nothingness]

A much cheaper alternative is to go to Southeast Asia and stay there for a year or so. You will learn about criminal psychology really well along with a golden opportunity to test your skills

[darrianation]

A much cheaper alternative is to go to Southeast Asia and stay there for a year or so. You will learn about criminal psychology really well along with a golden opportunity to test your skills

I said my interests are academic right now. But anyway where in south East Asia?

Hmmm... I have been to the PI mostly around Alongapo city (sp?), Angeles city, and several trips into Manila. I have been to Malaysia Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Thailand several times including 3 time to train in Muay Thai camps. I have also been to Borneo, Hong Kong on several occasions, and Taiwan and other Asian locations.

Where is it exactly do I need to go to be enlightened?

[Nothingness]

You know I am just messing with you . I am myself into academia, too. Going to start my Ph.D. program soon. Good luck with your goals.

BTW, I think one thing that makes the MA training not effective is the over-caution for safety.

[darrianation]

You know I am just messing with you .I am myself into academia, too. Going to start my Ph.D. program soon. Good luck with your goals.

BTW, I think one thing that makes the MA training not effective is the over-caution for safety.

PH.D, Cool...But I'm not sure if I'm that motivated. My interest is in self-defense specifically teaching it in the most efficient and physically economic way possible. Although people are getting better at it there are still to many non-efficient ideologies and philosophies out there that we keep missing things.

Trying to pick through all the rhetoric and bias, and separating all the good science from the junk is a daunting task. This is my goal.

And good luck to you.

[krys]

Going to start my Ph.D. program soon. Good luck with your goals.

Good luck, finished mine 2.5 years ago....Some #'$!@! lucky guys manage to get paid to do their PhD in (south east) Asia, are you one of those?

[jubaji]

If karate is that bad then why the Japanese tend to be better hand to hand fighters than western soldiers?

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[Nothingness]

Although I am training in a TMA, I am filtering the lessons from my master. As far as the techniques, we always discuss their usages. I am always trying to get to the assumptions of the practices. Of course, I do it in a very polite way so that I won't offend him. I also filter what I think is not scientifically correct from his believes. These usually apply to non-technical stuffs.

It happens that we have very similar thoughts in training. We both believe in modern weight training (a lot of TMA masters dont). He is also not close minded and keeps saying that although he believes that our system is very good, it is not the best and there is no best complete system out there. It is also a coincidence that we have passions for ground fighting and Taijiquan;
He will be 60 this year and he has liked ground fight way before the BJJ hype.

Darrination, I'd suggest you to take a look at Ngo Cho Kun since you are really serious about the economy of self-defense. Once you past the cultural barriers and the myth, you will see a direct yet deadly system. There is nothing to lose to temporarly omit the prejudice for TMA . The problem is that NCK is not popular in North America. Although it becomes more and more popular, it has also become watered-down and commercialized like sherwinc says.

Regards,

[konghan]

PH.D, Cool...But I'm not sure if I'm that motivated. My interest is in self-defense specifically teaching it in the most efficient and physically economic way possible. Although people are getting better at it there are still to many non-efficient ideologies and philosophies out there that we keep missing things.

Trying to pick through all the rhetoric and bias, and separating all the good science from the junk is a daunting task. This is my goal.

And good luck to you.

The world is too big. You can only do so much to promote your way of self defense without being affected with what you term as ineffective or gargabge training. If you let those "false teachings" affect you, you`ll be depressed & fustration will set in.

Even Jesus Christ couldn`t convince the whole world to follow him what more us?

More power to you & best of luck.

[konghan]

I am very satisfied with my techniques and my self-defense curriculum. I am both satisfied and competent in my tactical/functional knowledge of striking (which I take predominately from Muay Thai and boxing); my grappling is adequate, and I am very satisfied with my weapons skills/abilities- Tactical shooting, knife, and stick fighting. I am also in fairly good combat shape for my age and having two bad knees. I have good tactical assessment skills, knowledgable in security proceedures, good awareness and avoidance skills, good communication and de-escalation skills.

I am also very confident in my real word experiences, in the ring and tournament fighting (including wrestling, Karate, Muay Thai, Boxing, MMA and NHB), in street fighting (self-defense), as a paramedic who has had to physically restrain many drugged out crazed patients (Baltimore, Washington DC, Denver, and Phoenix), in combat (military action), and as a professional bodyguard.

However I thirst for more knowledge especially in criminal science as it relates to violent criminal assaults, and behavioral psychology. But my number one pre-occupation (right now) is on learning and better understanding of the scientific principles of physical training. I have a bachelor’s degree in sport science with a dual emphasis- physical education and coaching. I would like to get my masters in sport psychology, but between my student loans and my wife’s (she has 2 bachelors degree Chemistry, and psychology) we still owe 75,000 dollars and I am afraid to add to that. So I don’t know if or when I’ll get a chance to get my masters. So my interests right now are more in the academic arena, however this is all a means to becoming a better teacher/instructor of efficient and effective self-defense.

Well that’s me pretty much in a nutshell.

I can only compliment you & admire your desire to seek true knowlege in fact you could become a great true martial master but I guess & maybe I`m wrong the only thing missing in your quest is the spiritual & phylosophical aspects of life?

[konghan]

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I was talking about the time before karate was introduce to the Americans. In fact during those days USA military hand to hand fighting training was about boxing.

That`s why most Europeans have a hard time fighting in hand to hand against asian people even against first nation people. The west relay too much on weapon technology like guns & cannons which is good military strategy.