To people who don't seem to believe Bruce Lee is the real deal..

[Ghost]

THis is the problem when you get a larger than life character. in any industry.
If you ask people who was the biggest body builder of all time most people will say arnie, when he wouldnt even make it onto the stage at mr olympia compared to todays guys.
Their characters carry them a long, long way, and not really in any bad way usually, but can be misleading.

[Knuckles&Knees]

I would imagine that the last thing Bruce Lee wanted was for people to erect statues and bow down to him,and speak of him as unbeatable etc,wasnt he against any sort of hero worship?.

And didnt he carry a gun? even he realised he wasnt unbeatable eh?.

Looking at the JKD world from the outside it sure is confusing and in danger of becoming a classicl mess itself imho.

No more than the cult of Muhammed Ali (e.g. the "phantom punch"). But people from around the world never tire of claiming he was the greatest champ of all time - in a sport notorious for corruption mind you.

[Knuckles&Knees]

There are many, many martial artists that can fight really well but dont realy fully get what they are doing and cant teach it for shit.

THis comes back to what i was saying before with teaching and fighitng being two different things.

This I totally agree with! You ain't got to be an NBA star to be a great coach.

[Knuckles&Knees]

knuckles, yeah, there's no such thing as an unbeatable or invincible fighter. everyone is bound to make mistakes at some point, and if the opponent happens to see the opportunity and can be quick enough to take it, that could be (not definitely) the fight-stopping blow.

Yep!

And it's happened more than once in professional boxing where a boxer underestimated his "no named" opponent and got his clock cleaned. No matter how many fights you compile on your record, the potential still exists, some unrecognized guy, perhaps with a lot less fights than you, could come along a stop your parade.

Before some dude named Buster Douglas... Iron Mike Tyson was suppose to be invincible.

You can say this much about Bruce Lee, not only was his power phenomenal, but he stayed in better condition than many amateur or pro boxers. Which in my mind tells me, he was prepared for combat throughout more calendar days of the year than many boxers.

But Bruce never seemed to have acquired the skills associated with a BJJ practitioner or the particular rear leg kick of the Thai fighter, so the lack of those things could and I think would, be major weaknesses for him fighting against any well trained MMA person today.

This does not mean per se that Bruce would automatically lose against any well trained MMA person today in an ally fight. I don't think Bruce would have any objection to kicking his attacker in the knee (breaking the leg) or kicking his ally attacker in the groin with the power of a Mike Tyson upper cut or Babe Ruth at the batting plate. Lights out Billy! Lol.

[Ghost]

nope, i totally agree that there is no harm dismissing people as fighters. however, bruce did display his abilities via, well, his one-time boxing and even though it was only from people who knew him that we hear about his challenges and street fights, these people weren't the only ones present. with tons of people around, no one would spout rubbish like these, unless what, they bribed everyone on the street/set who witnessed the fights? even bribery would not last forever. after 3 decades, SOMEONE's bound to spill the beans - even if to get some attention. and that could start a forest fire whereby many of the witnesses who knew the supposed truth would start voicing out. but no one's said a concrete word.

as for the wong jack man fight, seriously, i wouldn't know. but i posted this before:

"i read wong's own account of the fight. it was waaayyy too detailed. i've been in numerous fights, and there isn't one that i could remember the opening techniques and moves and whatnots from beginning of the fight till the end.

wong illustrated the fight as if he was a third person, or in this case, a scriptwriter. come on. in the heated fight, in the split second between having to dodge or defend himself, he could see EXACTLY what technique bruce was using, and spell it out??? please. if he was so focused on what shape bruce's hand was taking every few seconds, it is no wonder he got his hat handed to him."

wong was stating the exact technique names and hand angles. i don't know, but everytime when pushed to take a stand, the moment the attacker moves, i move. i don't actually see his fingers or hand-shape (i do watch for hand angles when they hold rods, thankfully no knives, but even for a split-second just to gauge where the path of attack is coming from), i just know that he has moved and where he intends to hit.. and i react. other than that, i really don't memorize the fine details.

see that kind of illustrates the point.
Wong's status was pretty high in the community but you questioned what he wrote, rightly so in my opinion.
We know that fight went on for ages, some people state 20 minutes some 10.
it wasnt a quick finish and by some accounts of people he beat bruce but bruce wouldnt give in, wong refused to hurt him badly and so on blah blah.

Not everyone is telling the same story.....which leads to my point on loyalties

If you look at bruce lee and those around him you will find the bruce lee side of things and vice versa. this is why i question, in the same way you question Wong's side of things. I question everything and if i dont see concrete proof i think hang on, we really dont know what the case is, so i wont personally state it as a fact or an assumption.

[Knuckles&Knees]

Erm, no I see nothing wrong with it either sir, you know bearing in mind its what I do. I'm a little confused as to the gist of your post?

No, there was no disagreement, I thought your short summary was good and I just added some of my own thoughts to that point you made regarding JKD concepts. I wrote it more for the benefit of other readers and not you. Who my "target audience" was I'm not 100% sure but I wrote as to target whoever maybe "open minded" or "sitting on the fence" regarding both Bruce Lee or JKD.

[lucidmist]

I don't know if I can believe you. I mean, you being so scary and all!

it's ok, just stick to layin' eggs like the good hen that you are and you won't get sliced!

[lucidmist]

Lucidmist, whats your interpretation of the Wong Jack Man fight?

An account plus opinions here

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36846

I dont see any harm in dismissing people as fighters that are also Masters.
I have more respect for someone that is totally knowledgeable and can teach.
There are many, many martial artists that can fight really well but dont realy fully get what they are doing and cant teach it for shit.
THis comes back to what i was saying before with teaching and fighitng being two different things. Good techinique and great physical ability dont equal a good fighter, you can check out my thread in open access about what makes a good fighter and see peoples replies to see what i mean.
Meanness and heart came over skill and physical ability for just about everyone i think.
Bruce had skill and physical ability, but as you can see from that thread it doesnt prove a good fighter.

nope, i totally agree that there is no harm dismissing people as fighters. however, bruce did display his abilities via, well, his one-time boxing and even though it was only from people who knew him that we hear about his challenges and street fights, these people weren't the only ones present. with tons of people around, no one would spout rubbish like these, unless what, they bribed everyone on the street/set who witnessed the fights? even bribery would not last forever. after 3 decades, SOMEONE's bound to spill the beans - even if to get some attention. and that could start a forest fire whereby many of the witnesses who knew the supposed truth would start voicing out. but no one's said a concrete word.

as for the wong jack man fight, seriously, i wouldn't know. but i posted this before:

"i read wong's own account of the fight. it was waaayyy too detailed. i've been in numerous fights, and there isn't one that i could remember the opening techniques and moves and whatnots from beginning of the fight till the end.

wong illustrated the fight as if he was a third person, or in this case, a scriptwriter. come on. in the heated fight, in the split second between having to dodge or defend himself, he could see EXACTLY what technique bruce was using, and spell it out??? please. if he was so focused on what shape bruce's hand was taking every few seconds, it is no wonder he got his hat handed to him."

wong was stating the exact technique names and hand angles. i don't know, but everytime when pushed to take a stand, the moment the attacker moves, i move. i don't actually see his fingers or hand-shape (i do watch for hand angles when they hold rods, thankfully no knives, but even for a split-second just to gauge where the path of attack is coming from), i just know that he has moved and where he intends to hit.. and i react. other than that, i really don't memorize the fine details.

[jubaji]

jubachicken, you're so easily shaken up. no one's gonna harm you so long as you stay hidden in your chicken farm!

I don't know if I can believe you. I mean, you being so scary and all!

[fire cobra]

I would imagine that the last thing Bruce Lee wanted was for people to erect statues and bow down to him,and speak of him as unbeatable etc,wasnt he against any sort of hero worship?.

And didnt he carry a gun? even he realised he wasnt unbeatable eh?.

Looking at the JKD world from the outside it sure is confusing and in danger of becoming a classicl mess itself imho.

[lucidmist]

Oooh, there it is! More of Lucy's scary talk!

jubachicken, you're so easily shaken up. no one's gonna harm you so long as you stay hidden in your chicken farm!

[Ghost]

Lucidmist, whats your interpretation of the Wong Jack Man fight?

An account plus opinions here

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36846

I dont see any harm in dismissing people as fighters that are also Masters.
I have more respect for someone that is totally knowledgeable and can teach.
There are many, many martial artists that can fight really well but dont realy fully get what they are doing and cant teach it for shit.
THis comes back to what i was saying before with teaching and fighitng being two different things. Good techinique and great physical ability dont equal a good fighter, you can check out my thread in open access about what makes a good fighter and see peoples replies to see what i mean.
Meanness and heart came over skill and physical ability for just about everyone i think.
Bruce had skill and physical ability, but as you can see from that thread it doesnt prove a good fighter.

[jubaji]

Nah, but no one beats jubachicken at talkin' (or clucking). Too bad the j-chicken doesn't do any walkin' with the talkin'.

Oooh, there it is! More of Lucy's scary talk!

[lucidmist]

I think this is the point. I completely understand what Ghost is saying when Bruce is mentioned it is like he was some unstoppable God. Now could he fight I am sure he could, was he an unstoppable force of nature ...no. And it is cultish in the JKD comunity one somewhat off remark of bruce or any JKD person is always met with somekind of brainwashed remarks. There is some good JKD but to be honest it really is a small amount becuase of how bastardized the style/philosophy is.

yeah... many people do twist things out of proportion. i just felt that it wasn't fair for people to brush his fighting abilities off just cos he didn't compete, had no filmed fight footage, and was a movie star. if we simply write him off as a fighter cos of these few factors, then we're writing off a good lot of people, masters and instructors. i don't know why people don't see his one-time boxing victory or open demonstrations with thousands of witnesses as an indication that he could at least fight. he wasn't demonstrating flashy moves, kicks or somersaults like many demonstrations consist of. he demonstrated actual contact stuff that wasn't pre-arranged like other demonstrations. i never said Godlike, just that he could fight. i mean, it's a big difference if they brushed him off cos there were witnesses that saw him lose fights or challenges consistently. but to date, it's the other way round. he's no God, no one is.. but i'm sure he wasn't a pushover either.

i hope people disputing this can give some concrete statements or evidence that really proved he couldn't fight, not blind assumptions, because so far in all the other boards, i have seen none but generalized insults and comments over his ability. look, even accounts on why he couldn't fight, given by people who knew him, would be interesting to see too. at least something to even the scales of his Godhood.

not competing is simply not good enough to cancel someone off as an able fighter. i'm sure we all have friends that we know, who can really handle themselves well in most situations, but refuse to compete because of personal principles or some code of ethics they refuse to budge from. maybe bruce really didn't dare to compete cos he couldn't fight, i don't know, but can we see some real evidence of that, instead of blind assumptions?

[IPON]

knuckles, yeah, there's no such thing as an unbeatable or invincible fighter. could be (not definitely) the fight-stopping blow.

I think this is the point. I completely understand what Ghost is saying when Bruce is mentioned it is like he was some unstoppable God. Now could he fight I am sure he could, was he an unstoppable force of nature ...no. And it is cultish in the JKD comunity one somewhat off remark of bruce or any JKD person is always met with somekind of brainwashed remarks. There is some good JKD but to be honest it really is a small amount becuase of how bastardized the style/philosophy is.